Zach Snyder plans to speak with Frank Miller for MoS Sequel

Discussion in 'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice' started by Superman 1265, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. TheFlamingCoco

    TheFlamingCoco Well-Known Member

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    Lois can still be a KEY player even WITH Batman. First of all, forget the World's Finest movie. It won't work now, and even if it does, it's not the movie Superman needs yet.

    But if Lois conspires with Superman to take Lex down, Batman can play a peripheral role by being a mysterious character who is only unveiled in the third act.

    I'm telling you, for this to be a proper MOS2, Batman would have to be a character who appears, complicates, and leaves.

    As soon as it's a team-up, it all becomes silly, and the focus changes from Clark and the people around him to Superman/Batman saving the day.

    Again, the only way to make this a good part II is to show Batman as a minor character in the last half hour of the movie, letting the rest be divided up with Clark, Lois, the Daily Planet, a prominent superpowered foe (not Luthor), the conspiracy against Superman, and a mysterious stalker observing both Clark and Supes (which turns out to be Batman).

    By having Batman reveal his purpose during fighting, Clark can realize his ultimate form of submission would be to try to avoid conflict, only to realize that Batman doesn't take to quiet conversation well. In between blows, Superman tells him the truth, because he's afraid of physically hurting Batman, and wants to show him the gravity of the situation.

    They can both stop fighting (and in Superman's case, spinning around so that Batman has a hard time holding on). Thus the VS part of the story is fulfilled.

    And then having cleared up their differences, Batman can leave, knowing that Superman is stronger than he can ever be, and that at best, he can serve as back-up, and exits from the story.

    Sure, some people might ask what the point of Batman was, but I'm sure there will be many commentators telling on how he is a personified representation of human fear, anger, mistrust, and obsession. And he would be too small a character to the movie to "ruin it."

    But they'll probably WarMachine the final moments, and that's if the rest of the narrative was still MOS2.

    The movie we get will probably be World's Finest, for good or ill.
     
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  2. John Lambert

    John Lambert Well-Known Member

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    On the other hand, Lois is 100% confirmed. Of course, Lois was also in Superman III, so Lois being cast and Lois having a significant role are different stories entirely. This is why I think Lois needs to be the one to discover BW=BM.
     
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  3. John Lambert

    John Lambert Well-Known Member

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    Such would be an insult to Lois though, and is unacceptable. I have to admit my favorite is "Lois and Clark" where Lois at times is actually arguably a bigger character than Clark/Superman. It probably helped that a woman was the moving force behind that show. Although I have to say I hated how they did the Clark/Lois/Lex triangle, even if having Lois chose Clark over Lex, without knowing Lex is a criminal or CK=SM is nice. I just hated their taking it to the wire method of doing so.

    I have to be another person to say I wish we were not seeing Batman in MOS2, but that is what we will get, so I hope they do it well.
     
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  4. Mysteryman

    Mysteryman Well-Known Member

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    That was one of the first things I thought about when this film was announced .
     
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  5. Audrey

    Audrey Well-Known Member

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    You were the one who brought up the idea of the film having a Batman/Joker/Dent triangle with Superman/Batman/Lex. I'm responding specifically to that point and explaining why that is still problematic. An "ensemble" Superman movie is probematic when only one of the people in that ensemble is a WOMAN.

    Wonder Woman should be the central heroine of a Justice League movie. But this isn't a Justice League movie. It was supposed to be a Superman movie.

    Lois Lane is the heroine in the Superman mythos. Wonder Woman has her OWN mythos and she should be the heroine of a Justice League film. These two things do not actually conflict despite DC Comics recent confusion/blundering of the issue.

    And with all due respect, I'm sorry but the comparison to Pepper Potts is terrible and just does not work here as Pepper, as great a she was, was the definition of a supporting player in the Iron Man movies.

    Pepper Potts was great in the Iron Man franchise but it was an example of a film taking a female character who does NOT have that role in the comics and then giving her a bit more to do in the movies.

    Lois Lane is a 75 year old heroine and the first woman of comics. Lois Lane is more important to the Superman mythos than Pepper Potts is to Iron Man despite Pepper's recent film treatment.

    And as enjoyable as Pepper was...she didn't actually have her own battle she was fighting. Outside of talking about her relationship with Tony, we barely ever heard her talk about her OWN dreams or her own history. She was basically there to be Tony's love interest which she great at. And sure we got to see her kick some butt. But she wasn't really emotionally involved in Tony's battle with the bad guy. I know everyone thought Pepper was great in Iron Man 3 but frankly I wasn't that impressed. She vanished for a HUGE portion of the movie while Tony was off alone and then showed up the end and punched a bunch of stuff. And I know, as a woman, I'm supposed to be thrilled or something when women punch people (in their underwear/bra no less) but I'd much rather have a female have a really deep role in the story where she is there from start to finish and has her own perspective as opposed to being gifted with a scene where the woman shows up to bunch some stuff to prove she's tough and can handle herself. I don't think Iron Man 3 was this great feminist achievement that people seem to think it was. But I think it fooled a lot of people into thinking it was bc our culture gets VERY fooled right now into thinking that women have to punch people to prove they are tough and kickass. That's a thing now. We assume that if women show up and throw a punch that they are kicking butt. Which is another rant for another day.

    Lois Lane has her OWN backstory and her OWN relationship with Lex Luthor. There is a huge difference here.

    If Lois Lane winds up having the same kind of role Pepper Potts had in Iron Man that would be a failure on the part of Goyer and Snyder. Not because Pepper isn't great. She is. But Lois Lane is more important and has her own journey that should be at the CENTER of a Superman narrative. It's just not enough. The Superman/Lois narrative should be at the CENTER of a Superman narrative not just something on the side to add comedic relief and a kiss at the end of the movie. Lois Lane deserves more than Pepper Potts. Potts will never be a benchmark for how she should be handled despite how enjoyable the Iron Man movies were.

    I'm not trying to pick on you here because I can tell you are trying to be really thoughtful. It's just that, in the process, you have brought up some points and comparisons that sort of highlight the entire problem with this premise. The only way this fillm works and doesn't totally screw over Superman, Lex and especially Lois Lane is if Batman comes in as a supporting player with a very minimal role and is not considered a co-lead in the film. But I just do not see that happening.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  6. TheFlamingCoco

    TheFlamingCoco Well-Known Member

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    ^ I pretty much agree. MOS2 should be about Clark balancing his new life as a superhero with his regular life. Lois is a big part of that.

    The plot should occur as a way of bringing the characters together and developing them, rather than a stand-alone neat story. A sequel would be hard to make as it is. I don't think Batman makes it easier.
     
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  7. vantheman77

    vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    I don't know why Zack would want to talk to Frank Miller of all people when Frank is not a Superman fan. If Superman loses to Batman in his own film, I don't know how Superman will recover because it would be a blow to Superman and his fans. Batman is overexposed right now.
     
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  8. JDklip

    JDklip Well-Known Member

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    #108
  9. hafizbat

    hafizbat Wild Cherry

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    Haha are you Amy Adams? Lol JK. IMO Lois Lane is nothing more than a love interest for Superman, similar to Mary Jane for Spider-Man or Pepper Potts for Iron Man. She's not a heroine, not even close to Diana who is a legit lead character. And I'm sorry but I feel like you're grasping when you call a story about Batman and Superman a geek sausage fest and complain about the lack of a woman...It annoys me when people bring their whole gender issue when this is a movie about two male characters who happen to be the most iconic superheroes in the world. It sounds rather ridiculous to complain about Lois Lane not being as big a character as them and it reeks of feminism.
     
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  10. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    I don't see an issue here. Frank Miller wrote one of the definitive Batman/Superman interactions, and brought a depth to their relationship and the concept of them globally, and a perspective that was somewhat lacking in comics at the time of DKR. He's still a pretty good idea man, if a bit less focused and restrained in his actual writing than he used to be. But he won't be writing the script, either.

    Given Goyer's statements about Superman tackling global issues, hints at the government having issues with Superman in MOS, and the inclusion of Batman, I don't see the issue with Snyder consulting or speaking with Frank Miller to discuss the broader themes and concepts at play in DKR, which may not be adapted for this movie, but will certainly inform it based on what we've heard thus far. It doesn't mean that's the only person he's going to consult with, either. Jeez, people.
     
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  11. hafizbat

    hafizbat Wild Cherry

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    I think the main issue, above all else, is that Snyder is consulting the man who made Batman kick Superman's butt.
     
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  12. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    Well that and the comment about Snyder doing what WBs wants.
     
    #112
  13. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    It's fine, I see where you're coming from and I'm glad there is no animosity between us.

    It's unfortunate, but it does seem that one of the reactions against Superman Returns is to downplay the romance and crank up the testosterone. Man of Steel seemed like a pretty deliberate attempt to do just that. I'm not saying it's right, but it's the reality. But there were positive side effects of that too. Lois was far more than just a damsel in distress in MOS. Heck, my favorite scene in the film is her aboard the Kryptonian ship with Jor-El guiding her. She was given really cool stuff to do where I was cheering her on as much as I was Kal.

    And with how much this iteration of the Superman story seems centered on how the world views and reacts to the presence of aliens/extraordinary beings on Earth, Lois being a reporter puts her at the center of that.

    I look at it this way...TDK managed to give Batman, Joker, Dent and Gordon all very key satisfying roles (in addition to great supporting roles with important things to do for Alfred, Rachel and Lucius). If they can't manage to write strong parts for Bruce, Clark, Lex and Lois, it won't be due to Batman being in the story, it'll be due to Goyer and Snyder not being up to the task of writing a balanced screenplay. I hope they are.


    Amen. The thing is, some Superman fans seem to resent that DKReturns is considered one of the definitive Batman/Superman interactions, but that doesn't change the fact that it is widely considered to be just that.
     
    #113
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  14. Pfeiffer-Pfan

    Pfeiffer-Pfan Cool Rider

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    That comment about Snyder complying with WB, despite his own feelings with Superman, doesn't sound too good does it?

    It'll be Batman vs. Superman.
    An epic showdown between the two with LOTS of Kyrptonite.
    Batman will be the badass.

    This may keep WB's head above water in a crowded 2015, but I don't think this bodes well for the Superman franchise in the long-term.
     
    #114
  15. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    It'll be fine. Superman wont be anyone's chump. Maybe for a moment with Batman but it wont last. He wont be a government puppet or look stupid.
     
    #115
  16. kalhawj

    kalhawj Well-Known Member

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    If this movie have no dept in story, plot, and character development and simply a vs movie like alien vs Predator or Jason vs Freddy WB will not get my money... This movie needs to be about Superman with Batman being the side character who help develop the story and plot which eventually lead to their short encounter and than teaming to defeat the villain. So far I'm not liking what I'm hearing... I hope something good enlightens us as more details about the movie is release... Right now it's gloom and doom only :(
     
    #116
  17. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    I think what people are failing to realize here is that it's not epic if Superman is just made to look bad and Batman PWNS him. It does Batman no favors if Superman looks bad.

    It IS epic if they're both portrayed as these awesome, larger than life beings on a collision course. Both will have their moments to shine.
     
    #117
  18. Audrey

    Audrey Well-Known Member

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    Gee, you really told me. I'm just not even sure how to respond to this because you just....you really got me here. Except that you know...you're wrong and uninformed. So that's a bummer for you.

    Lois Lane is a heroine and she's the female lead of the Superman mythos. She exists as both the woman Clark loves and a heroine in her own right. She was created as a career women in an era where career women barely existed in media and this was done on purpose.

    There are actual books with, you know, facts (I know..darn those facts!) written and published about this. Brad Ricca wrote a wonderful book that was published very recently that deals with this exact issue on the creation of Superman and the history of the Siegel family. It's excellent and I strongly encourage you to read it. http://www.amazon.com/Super-Boys-Ad...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375391169&sr=1-1

    Just yesterday, Comics Alliance published a beautiful interview with Dana Delany where Dana talked openly about the inspiration and power she drew from Lois as a woman and how that influenced her growing up even before she took on the iconic role in the Animated Series. In fact, the entire focus of the interview is on Lois's role as a heroine. Her romantic relationship with Superman is barely mentioned in the interview. http://comicsalliance.com/dana-delany-interview-lois-lane-superman-animated-series-flashpoint/

    Real life female journalists have credited Lois Lane with inspiring them to find the courage to enter the profession. Here is one such article called, "A Love Letter to Lois Lane" by a real journalism Professor at Northwestern University. http://www.amazon.com/Super-Boys-Adventures-Shuster----Creators/dp/0312643802/ref=sr_1_1/182-4331455-1242854?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375389565&sr=1-1

    I won't waste time linking to the hundreds of interviews given by the other women who played her: Amy Adams, Erica Durance, Teri Hatcher, Margot Kidder who all talked, in depth, about how the character impacted them.

    Of note is that when Teri Hatcher joined Facebook she shared that she was bombarded with thousands of women thanking her for playing Lois in the 90's because Lois was one of the only examples of a "career woman" on television for a lot of little girls growing up in the 90's. Hatcher has said that no matter where she goes in the world people STILL stop her because they want to talk about "Lois and Clark."

    I will, however, link to this youtube video of a short documentary entitled, "Being Lois Lane" that features Noel Neill, Margot Kidder, Dana and Erica Durance as well as leadership at DC Comics talking about Lois's impact as a heroine in pop culture.

    Being Lois Lane Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y95t8bAIeo

    Being Lois Lane Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR9OO8CTuvM


    I'll also link you to some of the great creator interviews that have taken place for Lois Lane's 75th anniversary that detail at length just how vital she is to the Superman mythos as a whole and how inspiring she's been to women for 75 years.

    http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/48383908030/75-years-of-lois-lane-a-chat-with-greg-rucka

    http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/48624946890/75-years-of-lois-lane-a-chat-with-bryan-q-miller


    http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/48874005196/75-years-of-lois-lane-a-chat-with-mindy-newell



    Wonder Woman is a different kind of heroine. She's a superheroine with her own book and her own mythos. I love Wonder Woman btw. I'm a HUGE fan of Wonder Woman. But Wonder Woman is not the heroine of the Superman mythos. That's not her job. And Lois Lane is not LESSER than Wonder Woman bc she doesn't wear a sexy costume or have physical power. That's not how this works. There is no such thing.

    Mary Jane Watson is wonderful and a huge and important part of the Spider-Man mythos. She is not just a love interest either. Pepper Potts was a great character in the Iron Man film franchise but has nowhere near the importance or impact or either Lois Lane or Mary Jane Watson in the source material and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

    As for your other comments....Am I Amy Adams? I wish! Then I'd have 4 Oscar nominations and I'd have made out with Henry Cavill! How awesome would THAT be?

    And I honestly hope my post reeked of feminism because feminism only means that we want men and women to be treated equally and I'll never be ashamed to want that in my narratives by you or anyone else.

    So thanks so much for your comment! Looks like you have some reading to do though since you clearly aren't so informed. But thanks for playing!
     
    #118
  19. Audrey

    Audrey Well-Known Member

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    It's considered one of the definitive Batman/Superman interactions by BATMAN fans and by fans who are ignorant of the Superman mythos.

    It's not widely considered to be a definitive interpretation by people who genuinely love Superman and are actually educated on his mythos and the character.

    The Dark Knight Returns is not a Batman/Superman story. It's a BATMAN story that has Superman in it and he's portrayed very poorly in it. It's not a definitive ANYTHING for Superman. It's only definitive to people who know NOTHING about Superman.

    Therein lies the problem.

    Yes, I resent that a story that is told from Batman's POV that was written by a man who HATES Superman and absolutely does not understand him, love him or care about him is a narrative that is considered a "definitive" interaction for Superman. Why wouldn't a Superman fan resent that? It's logical to resent something that insulting to something we love.
     
    #119
  20. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    I read the title of this thread and got chills up my spine.

    Well, any chance of this movie being even decent are gone now. :dry:
     
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  21. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Perhaps definitive is the wrong word. But it's certainly iconic.

    It's important to remember that there are plenty of comic book readers who are fans of both Batman and Superman and are informed about both, who enjoy The Dark Knight Returns.

    It's not a definitive portrayal of Superman at all. It's a warped bizarro "what if?" interpretation of him. But it is the most famous and iconic encounter between the two characters in their 75 year history. It's just the way it is.

    Plenty of Batman fans hate DKReturns too. It's a controversial book. But nobody can argue that it's an influential and iconic work. Many comic writers of today had their minds blown reading that for the first time in '86, and may not have gotten into comics if not for that experience. It was the "gateway drug" for a lot of people.
     
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  22. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    Don't be dramatic people. Miller has said himself that he only did that to Superman because he was appearing in a Batman story. This might actually be a little more Superman than batman or at least equal so Zack and Miller will talk about doing a version of his Returns story. Meaning Superman will be done different. And Bruce wont be in his 50s.
     
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  23. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    This is just about Miller not wholly what you said.

    As I said before though he said that, then years later treat him even worse in Strikes Again and All Star B&R. Let me ask you this, you work for a company are you going to say bad things about one of its major characters?

    I agree about people overreacting though.
     
    #123
  24. Audrey

    Audrey Well-Known Member

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    Well, to that...I'd say a few things.

    How do I say this without it coming off really mean? LOL There are plenty of people in this world who are "fans" of certain things without actually having any real understanding about them.

    I'm sure there are people who are comic book readers who "like" Superman who like Dark Knight Returns. But then, unfortunately, I have to question what kind of fans they are and what kind of understanding they have of the character. There are plenty of people out there who "like" Superman but believe some totally untrue and ridiculous things about him. Not all "fans" have the same level of intelligence, understanding and ability to process the problems with a problematic text. So the fact that some people are ok with it doesn't really hold muster for me. Superman is a ridiculously misunderstood figure and even plenty of people who "like" him don't always get him.

    Second, yes...it's a messed up, AU of Superman. The trouble is....almost every single AU that features Batman and Superman features a warped bizarro "what if" of Superman. This is a consistent problem with this character.

    The most recent example is Injustice Gods Among Us. That features a warped "what if" for Superman. The problem is...it's become a rather huge trend for the "what if" for Superman to paint him horrifically. There are alot of reasons for this and none of them speak highly about the way WB manages Superman and the way DC Comics treats the character.

    There are so many avenues with a "what if" story and, at some point, it does become offensive that the " go to" in a "what if" with Superman tends to lead down such a lazy, character assasination riddled path. Just as it's become really, really lazy (and blisteringly insulting) that the "what if" for Lois Lane seems to ALWAYS be to murder her in some grisly, horrible way. At some point, there actually is a problem with the "what if" here bc these characters are repeatedly thrown under the bus. (Which specifically, Frank Miller killed Lois off in Dark Knight Returns, in part, bc he wanted to paint Superman poorly and felt he couldn't do it with Lois around. It was lazy.)

    As for the "gateway" comic for people....that may have been true in 1986. I was only 4 years old in 1986. So the people to which it was a "gateway comic" are much older than me now and I'm already 30 years old. So we are talking here about a group of fans who are a bit older and I would, guess, are almost exclusively male.

    Now, personally, my "gateway" into comics was Death of Superman in the early 90's. And I would venture that "Death of Superman" is actually the "gateway" for a lot of modern Superman fans.

    So I guess my question is...if we are talking about "gateway comics" for a Superman movie....why aren't we talking about Death and Return of Superman? Because, THAT was really more of the "gateway" comic for the current generation of readers and it was a book that was actually FOCUSED on Superman and about Superman. Batman was also in THAT story.

    (I'm honestly not trying to argue here. I think you've made some great points and you're very thoughful. I'm just raising some other questions.)
     
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  25. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    That's not why I'm worried. In fact, I wish that the Frank Miller of today was the same Frank Miller of the 1980's. Today's Frank Miller has "lost it", for lack of better term.
     
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