BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Par

[DarthSkywalker]

yeah. that's the worst kind of argument.

and it's not really an argument - more of an insult.

Yep.

 

[Marvin]

What is this "deeper issue"?

I'll leave that for the people with the issue to figure out. I merely pointed out that it couldn't be that, rather that wasn't indicative of it. Simply "not talking enough".

Except this movie doesn't pull off the whole "actions speak louder than words" approach. That would take more skilled hands. I think I finally figured it out though. I think people who like this movie, much like Zack Snyder, don't get these characters. Only in the most skin-deep way. Maybe that's why so many people don't seem to understand why this movie is an insult to amazing characters. It's the same thing with those who liked Amazing Spider-Man 2. Blegh

I didn't say the movie even tried to pull 'that off. I said that's simply not some objective criticism. As for name dropping ASM2 to make your point, one that simply amounts to zack and people don't get the characters...and now i'm going to name drop a film no one liked, yea not really agreeing. It's funny cause of all the perceived faults asm 2 has, I wasn't aware garfield was one of them.
Getting only the skin deep aspects would probably amount to things like he needs to smile more to be superman. The movie has no hope in it etc.

 

[The Joker]

Yes.
This makes me sad, it's become a joke now
I even heard two coworkers who aren't into superhero movies making fun of it.


This wasn't supposed to happened. This had to be a success

I don't think any of us saw what has happened coming. If you told me last month it would get 29% on RT, not stand a chance of making a billion or even 900 million at this point (and that's with no competition in theaters), and get an even worse reception than Man of Steel with fans, I wouldn't have believed it for a second.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

You are being civil. It's why I haven't hit the report button on you. I know you're not trying to be provocative. You're cool.

Okay, cool.

Liking what was in the movie, and getting what you want are two different things. You can get something which wasn't what you wanted, but you still liked it. I'll give you my controversial example; Spider-Man 3. I didn't want Venom, or the symbiote storyline, or Gwen Stacy etc, but I still enjoy what Raimi did with it. Warts and all. I think it's miles better than what the TASM movies offered (apparently so did some of the higher ups in Sony according to those leaked emails).

I actually pretty well agree with you on SM3. I think it's obvious it isn't the movie Raimi wanted to make, and I know I didn't want him to have to, but it's not that bad. I do own my copy.

Whereas if you disliked a movie, it's because you actively disliked what you got. That can be because you didn't get what you want (a bad or stupid story for example), or they gave you what you want but they made a horrible mess of it. Lots of fans wanted to see Batman and Superman in a feud, we got that. But lots of people hated what they did with it. They thought it was horribly written, horribly executed, horribly resolved (the Martha thing is actually a running joke now akin to the nipples in Schumacher's Batman).

That was the thing I was trying to say, I guess. And on the other side, it's not quite the movie I wanted, but I like it. That was my issue on the first viewing. It was mostly what I expected, but not quite, and the not quite was bugging me. On my second viewing, with my preconceptions gone, I enjoyed it wholeheartedly.

 

[The Shape]

Sorry, but I disagree strongly with this. Some people think this movie did the things it takes to show these characters properly. I don't altogether agree with that, but it's not anyone's place to say they're wrong for seeing characters or the movie a certain way.

It's basically the worst kind of ignorant straw-man argument and best to ignore it.

 

[X Knight]

I don't think any of us saw what has happened coming. If you told me last month it would get 29% on RT, not stand a chance of making a billion or even 900 million at this point (and that's with no competition in theaters), and get an even worse reception than Man of Steel with fans, I wouldn't have believed it for a second.

neither would I.

as someone who liked the film, it is depressing to see it underperform.

however, as someone who does yearn for a more traditional, upbeat take on Superman, BvS underperforming does give me a glimmer of hope that maybe, somehow, someday, WB will come to their senses and reboot the whole thing.

but alas.........that probably won't happen for a long, long time. they are in way too deep with this DCEU.

 

[The Guard]

Ma Kent sees it. It is why she tells him he doesn't own the world a thing. Being Superman hurts him, he does not enjoy it, he does enjoy helping people. He sees it as an obligation, something he is forced to do, not something he does because he can.

Doing it because he can is inherent to the character.

There's nothing in this film to actually suggest he resents it. Only that it's difficult and he's not sure how to handle the world turning on him and how to reconcile what they expect of him.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Well said.

This is a great post and very interesting.

Thanks, guys. Much love.

 

[MrsKent26]

I'll leave that for the people with the issue to figure out. I merely pointed out that it couldn't be that, rather that wasn't indicative of it. Simply "not talking enough".

Well, I'd say the "not talking enough" is a summary of the deeper issue, which is that there wasn't enough characterization for him at all, be that talking or imagery. And when he did talk, he didn't say anything profound, inspiring, or in some cases, natural or conversational. I won't deny that preconceived ideas has some stake in this. I expect something from superman and the manner in which it was delivered was too subtle and incomplete (or even out of character in the case of "no one stays good"). Of course, that comes from what I think superman is. But it's also, to some degree, what the movie tells us he is, such as with the message written on his coffin at the end.

 

[The Guard]

People need to understand something. COMICS. DON'T. MEAN. ****. Movies and comics are 2 different mediums. While this stuff is neat, there is zero substance to it making it entirely pointless and dumb. I feel insulted when people defend this film saying it's a film for fans. As a DC fan, what hell did I do to deserve this film?

Then why are so many fans arguing that him killing in this film is bad because he doesn't do it in the source material?

 

[The Guard]

If someone says they don't like the movie, and don't give reasons, why would the first assumption be that they didn't get it? This is not a complex intelligent movie. Unless they say something that factually contradicts things in the movie, there's no reason to say or assume they didn't get it.

It's just easier for some people to label people who disliked the movie as not getting it because they can't fathom how anyone could rationally dislike it. Those sort of people are ignorant.

It's not about labeling people. It's about people legitimately missing out on key elements and then claiming they're not in the film. And I don't even mean things that are hinted at or played in the performances, I'm talking about actual lines of dialogue with clear, relevant content. Believe it or not, some of us "defenders" are not trying to make people feel dumb. We're trying to help people find value in this film that they may have missed one way or another.

 

[The Joker]

It's not about labeling people. It's about people legitimately missing out on key elements and then claiming they're not in the film. And I don't even mean things that are hinted at or played in the performances, I'm talking about actual lines of dialogue with clear, relevant content. Believe it or not, some of us "defenders" are not trying to make people feel dumb. We're trying to help people find value in this film that they may have missed one way or another.

It's not about labeling people for you. There's exceptions to every rule. You're one in this case. I don't think you were one of the ones that got the positive thread shut down.

 

[The Guard]

I think I'm more troubled by the way people have to see things as black or white. That so many people have to either hate or love something, that it seems like there's little room for people to be in-between on things. And because I like the movie at all, I'm often assumed to be on one extreme end of the spectrum, because people don't seem to know that there is a spectrum.

This.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

His mother can see the sadness in her son. She knows what she is talking about. It isn't like the film is full of scenes of Superman enjoying being Superman. It is the exact opposite.

He's unhappy because of the circumstances he's in, not because he's Superman.

The concept of Superman, is the being that has the weight of the world on his shoulders, but still gives you that warm smile. The one cares about everyone, and while a great responsibility, is steadfast in his believe. He isn't here. He never is. In two films the last thing he wants to be is Superman. He'd rather be Lois's husband.

That's not true either. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders and he still looks at people with compassion and genuine warmth (he does that puppy-dog eyes thing, man). He is shown saving people. Hell, dude, he walked away from stopping Bruce at Lex's so he could go save that girl. She was more important.

And this does carry over from MoS, where everyone talks about choice, while telling Clark what he has to do. The only one that doesn't is Martha, and she is the one who understands her son's feelings. She always has.

As we all already said, she was just a caring mother letting him off the hook so he could remember what his choice always has been and why. Nothing more. Moms do that stuff all the time.

P.S. Superman does give up. He tries to kill Batman. Tells Lois he will do it. That is giving up to me.

That's also not true. Before Superman flies off to meet Batman, he tells Lois something like, "I need him to help me. Nobody stays good forever."

And then when he gets to Batman he's like, I don't remember the exact dialogue so I'm going to paraphrase in fun ways, he's like, "we need to talk bro" and Batman's like, "DIE DIE DIE DIE" and Superman's like, "no, dude, stop. Stop. Stop. Bruce. Bruce. Bruce. DAMMIT BRUCE STOP OW WTF DUDE GET OFF!"

He was NEVER going to kill him.

 

[Andreth]

I don't think any of us saw what has happened coming. If you told me last month it would get 29% on RT, not stand a chance of making a billion or even 900 million at this point (and that's with no competition in theaters), and get an even worse reception than Man of Steel with fans, I wouldn't have believed it for a second.

I know.

neither would I.

as someone who liked the film, it is depressing to see it underperform.

however, as someone who does yearn for a more traditional, upbeat take on Superman, BvS underperforming does give me a glimmer of hope that maybe, somehow, someday, WB will come to their senses and reboot the whole thing.

but alas.........that probably won't happen for a long, long time. they are in way too deep with this DCEU.

I have mixed feelings, I enjoyed it, I think the cast is absolutely perfect, they do love the characters they're playing, so it pains me to see it doing so bad in every aspect. Henry couldn't be more perfect for that role. And yet I want these stories to be good.

 

[MrsKent26]

That's also not true. Before Superman flies off to meet Batman, he tells Lois something like, "I need him to help me. Nobody stays good forever."

And then when he gets to Batman he's like, I don't remember the exact dialogue so I'm going to paraphrase in fun ways, he's like, "we need to talk bro" and Batman's like, "DIE DIE DIE DIE" and Superman's like, "no, dude, stop. Stop. Stop. Bruce. Bruce. Bruce. DAMMIT BRUCE STOP OW WTF DUDE GET OFF!"

He was NEVER going to kill him.

I've always wondered why, considering he tries to talk to Bruce at first, did he shove him away at the start of the fight? Maybe someone can shed some light on that.

 

[Marvin]

Well, I'd say the "not talking enough" is a summary of the deeper issue, which is that there wasn't enough characterization for him at all, be that talking or imagery. And when he did talk, he didn't say anything profound, inspiring, or in some cases, natural or conversational. I won't deny that preconceived ideas has some stake in this. I expect something from superman and the manner in which it was delivered was too subtle and incomplete (or even out of character in the case of "no one stays good"). Of course, that comes from what I think superman is. But it's also, to some degree, what the movie tells us he is, such as with the message written on his coffin at the end.

I suspect alot of people are coming from where you are, if this was some original picture the response, critical or otherwise may have been different, this weighs on me to no end in terms of film analysis and the artist. That being said, sure more characterization would have no doubt done alot more good, particularly in this case. It tends to always help, but the question remains how much was missing the other way. We know his goals, we know his love, we know his fears and his hates, even his beers...Knowing what makes him bust a gut laughing would surely help matters but does not knowing hurt enough to stifle anything. Point being we technically know even less about this batman and def WW and it's thus far a non issue...

anyways, what was the message?

 

[Predator jp]

i'm one of those rare species that enjoyed the movie alot but didn't like it at all lol. if that makes any sense.

 

[The Guard]

I've always wondered why, considering he tries to talk to Bruce at first, did he shove him away at the start of the fight? Maybe someone can shed some light on that.

Because he's angry about what Batman just did.

He's pretty much trying to get Batman to stay down and listen to him.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Well, I'd say the "not talking enough" is a summary of the deeper issue, which is that there wasn't enough characterization for him at all, be that talking or imagery. And when he did talk, he didn't say anything profound, inspiring, or in some cases, natural or conversational. I won't deny that preconceived ideas has some stake in this. I expect something from superman and the manner in which it was delivered was too subtle and incomplete (or even out of character in the case of "no one stays good"). Of course, that comes from what I think superman is. But it's also, to some degree, what the movie tells us he is, such as with the message written on his coffin at the end.

I would like to point out that "no one stays good" was said immediately after saying something like, "I'm going to ask him to help me." I suspect that was meant to convey that Superman understands Batman now, that he realizes he's come to a dark place because of what the world has done to him, and that he's really a good guy, and he has to try to reach him.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Sorry, but I disagree strongly with this. Some people think this movie did the things it takes to show these characters properly. I don't altogether agree with that, but it's not anyone's place to say they're wrong for seeing characters or the movie a certain way.

love this! I appreciate that. I obviously loved this movie, and I do not have issues when people did not like it if they present their reasons for why they disliked it, but I do have a problem when I get told things along the lines of "It's fine that you liked this movies, but it was still garbage and horrible made movie."
I don't mind having an intelligent debate about what people thought worked in the movie and what they thought didn't, but to be told outright that I'm flat out wrong is NOT okay. Obviously it wouldn't be okay if I was telling people they were wrong for not liking it either

 

[The Guard]

Right. The scenes with Lois are fine. But those were few and far between. His best qualities have to be given a chance to shine outside of that relationship. It can't just be Lois against the world. I'm honest-to-God terrified that they're setting up some type of Injustice storyline. That may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for me.

He has like, five or six scenes with Lois, and she's a part of two others that he is in. This movie was very Clark/Superman-Lois centric. I loved that about it.

Anyway, in terms of his best qualities being given a chance to shine outside their relationship:

-The montage features an obvious moment of kidness and gentleness.
-The Daily Planet scenes are all about Clark standing up for the poor, oppressed people of Gotham and his feeling that the Planet needs to stand for something.

 

[The Guard]

I think people tend to forget that, while he has been Superman a while, this is still really Superman’s first exposure to the world. And the world sees him as a God. I don’t think that means we will never see him interact as a man. He clearly does in the montage. There’s a reason he’s shown hovering above, distant and obscured, and also gently lowering into the crowd with a gentle smile on his face. Immediately after that, yup, they treat him like a deity.

It's the difference in who he is and how they see him. Done with beautiful imagery and not a single word. Good stuff.

 

[Aquafinn90]

i'm one of those rare species that enjoyed the movie alot but didn't like it at all lol. if that makes any sense.

....I'm not following you. Mind explaining?

 

[The Guard]

I agree. Which is why I really want good material for him now. Don't waste him, Snyder!

The thing though...is that is doesn't make that much organic sense. Superman is down. He may not even be present for the initial formation of the JL, if Snyder's comments are any indication. They don't know him from Adam, at this point. Even batman has only known him for a short while (during most of that time, he wanted to kill supes). His personality isn't as fleshed out as it could be either. So what we're left with is a bunch of people who don't know superman trying to get him to act like his old self, whom they don't know. And the audience, who doesn't know him that well either, gets more time with a superman that is not acting like himself. He becomes a temporary villain and yet...we're supposed to believe he's the greatest (or so batman will claim when he tries to ban the league together to fight anti-supes).

Sorry, that was negative as all get-out. But I just really don't like this idea of brain-washed/controlled/sinister supes immediately following a movie for which one of the chief complaints was about superman's lack of character/dialogue.

All these negative posts from you are starting to concern me. It’s like you’re just assuming the worst.

Look, part of the reason Superman was “down” in BVS is that the world was treating him like a God, and then outright turned against him. He also saw the darker side of humanity quite clearly. The film makes that pretty clear.

I don’t think that’s going to be the case so much when he returns. We saw that at the end of the film, in both the world’s reaction to his actions, their treatment of him as a man, and their reverence for him as a hero.

On a side note, I love how many people are complaining about the possibility that Superman might get brainwashed by Darkseid. That’s like, one of the most BELOVED STAS episodes for fans. At least it used to be.