BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Par

[DarthSkywalker]

He's unhappy because of the circumstances he's in, not because he's Superman.

Which is inseperable with him being Superman. He never lives as Superman the hero. It is one of the major reasons this film being the second in the series makes no sense. The only time we see him working as "Superman" in the classical sense is his first flight and his interaction with the military in MoS.

Otherwise he is a sourpuss or hitting something. Usually both.

Even in his first scene as Superman here, he shows up all "badass" and angry. I am going to show you. No diplomacy, no kind words, just brute force.

That's not true either. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders and he still looks at people with compassion and genuine warmth (he does that puppy-dog eyes thing, man). He is shown saving people. Hell, dude, he walked away from stopping Bruce at Lex's so he could go save that girl. She was more important.

No he doesn't. Doesn't say a word in the Senate hearing. Doesn't calm fears. He says nothing, while he wears a sad look on his face.

It is like the exact opposite of how he approaches the situation in MoS.

As we all already said, she was just a caring mother letting him off the hook so he could remember what his choice always has been and why. Nothing more. Moms do that stuff all the time.

That's also not true. Before Superman flies off to meet Batman, he tells Lois something like, "I need him to help me. Nobody stays good forever."

And then when he gets to Batman he's like, I don't remember the exact dialogue so I'm going to paraphrase in fun ways, he's like, "we need to talk bro" and Batman's like, "DIE DIE DIE DIE" and Superman's like, "no, dude, stop. Stop. Stop. Bruce. Bruce. Bruce. DAMMIT BRUCE STOP OW WTF DUDE GET OFF!"

He was NEVER going to kill him.

He has this huge sad face on as he says, "nobody stays good forever" implying he is willing to kill Batman. Don't act like that didn't happen that way, because it did.

If he wanted to talk to Batman, he could have. Told him right away what was going on. Nope, had to push him them put him through a building. Really sounds like Superman was trying really hard there....

 

[MrsKent26]

I suspect alot of people are coming from where you are, if this was some original picture the response, critical or otherwise may have been different, this weighs on me to no end in terms of film analysis and the artist. That being said, sure more characterization would have no doubt done alot more good, particularly in this case. It tends to always help, but the question remains how much was missing the other way. We know his goals, we know his love, we know his fears and his hates, even his beers...Knowing what makes him bust a gut laughing would surely help matters but does not knowing hurt enough to stifle anything. Point being we technically know even less about this batman and def WW and it's thus far a non issue...

anyways, what was the message?

Batman and WW aren't into their second movie with a starring role. WW's role was only supporting, so naturally I accept less characterization there.

The message?

Because he's angry about what Batman just did.

He's pretty much trying to get Batman to stay down and listen to him.

What did batman just do? Was that after he'd already attacked supes with little trap?

I would like to point out that "no one stays good" was said immediately after saying something like, "I'm going to ask him to help me." I suspect that was meant to convey that Superman understands Batman now, that he realizes he's come to a dark place because of what the world has done to him, and that he's really a good guy, and he has to try to reach him.

If that's the case, the line is less of an abomination that I thought. I thought superman was referring to himself and was despairing about what Luthor was making him do.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I've always wondered why, considering he tries to talk to Bruce at first, did he shove him away at the start of the fight? Maybe someone can shed some light on that.

Because he's angry about what Batman just did.

He's pretty much trying to get Batman to stay down and listen to him.

Yep. When you're trying to have a conversation with a huge dude who's kind of singularly focused on bashing your face in, you end up having to defend yourself whether you want to or not. If he didn't, Batman would definitely have killed him.

 

[X Knight]

Superman did try to talk to Batman at first. but Batman was having none of it and immediately attacked Superman with the sonic guns.

that's why Superman pushed Batman - to show Batman he can hurt him if he wants to. the push was a "warning shot" to Batman.

 

[The Shape]

I've always wondered why, considering he tries to talk to Bruce at first, did he shove him away at the start of the fight? Maybe someone can shed some light on that.

Probably a warning shot, to try to keep the screaming, irate man in a metal suit from attacking him again. Batman does attack again with guns. Superman tosses Batman around again, but this time he orders Batman to stay down and verbally expresses that he doesn't want him dead.

Later, after being gassed with K, he's fighting for his life.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

All these negative posts from you are starting to concern me. It’s like you’re just assuming the worst.

Look, part of the reason Superman was “down” in BVS is that the world was treating him like a God, and then outright turned against him. He also saw the darker side of humanity quite clearly. The film makes that pretty clear.

I don’t think that’s going to be the case so much when he returns. We saw that at the end of the film, in both the world’s reaction to his actions, their treatment of him as a man, and their reverence for him as a hero.

On a side note, I love how many people are complaining about the possibility that Superman might get brainwashed by Darkseid. That’s like, one of the most BELOVED STAS episodes for fans. At least it used to be.

That is the last way you start the first JL story. With evil Superman. It sounds stupid enough for Snyder to do it.

Also your overall argument misses one thing. That is what we were promised for Superman in the film that followed MoS, and instead it got worse in that regard. If he shows up evil, why wouldn't it be worse?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

If that's the case, the line is less of an abomination that I thought. I thought superman was referring to himself and was despairing about what Luthor was making him do.

I assure you it's the case. Strangely, I missed that first half of the line on my first viewing, and then on my second viewing I heard it and was like, "OHHHHhhhhhh..." because I was weirded out by it too on my first viewing.

Left me even more confused that Clark had decided to talk it out when he got there. Second viewing cleared that one right up.

 

[Andreth]

This trailer still gives me chills

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The music, the tone, everything looked wonderful, it gave you such sense of hope

At this point it's clear we're not getting another Superman solo film, the death of superman has already happened, Clark Kent has been killed, hell, even Jimmy Olsen is dead, I know most of you don't care for that but it's clear we're never gonna get that SM/CK/Daily Planet dynamic with him and the entire team. The future looks bleak for superman. I can see him having a visually stunning return and a couple of good CGI fights and that's about it.

 

[The Guard]

The problem is it's not a balance characterisation though. It's entirely valid to pose the question about the burden it places on him, but there has to be a retort to that question that ends positively, otherwise it's a pointless question to ask.

There is a clear retort within the film. It takes the form of Superman, having spent the film examining his burden and the costs of being a hero, realizing that his burden is one he is willing to bear, and the sacrifice worth making.

Originally Posted by AndrewGilkison
Superman does NOT represent hope and idealism in any REAL way in Batman V. Superman. Because we never see the hope and idealism in action. All we ever see are the burden and brooding and the hardship. The actual movie wallows in negativity far more than the people bashing the movie do.

I don't think the movie wallows in negativity at all. The movie presents cynical ideas, namely in the aftermath of the bombing sequence, but those are then balanced out with things like Superman's talk with Ma Kent and Pa Kent. These are not, in any real sense, negative scenes. They are outlining his choices with regard to being a hero. Even after Superman says "No one stays good in this world", he immediately makes the right choice initially in the confrontation with Batman, trying to talk to him before using violence, and ultimately appeals to Batman's goodness.

Where is there any real hope or idealism in the movie that is earned by the screenplay? Where does the movie earn any of the moments where it clumsily and halfheartedly tries to be inspiring or uplifting?

I'm glad you asked.

Where is there hope?

The film's presentation of hope is found in the arc of the darkest character in the film. Batman.

Something along the lines of:“We fight. We fall. But we can do better. We have to.”

Those very words are hopeful statements about the nature of mankind and its ability to change.

How is not not hopeful?

People keep saying things like "Superman didn't inspire hope", and referring back to Jor-El's speech in MAN OF STEEL. It's like they want the entire world to live in peace and harmony because Superman shows up.

I don’t understand why people expected the world to “join Superman in the sun” so soon.

We have been shown, from Day One, that the world is not going to be that easy to win over. But somehow this has become a complaint and a knock against the films. Yes, Jor-El WANTED this for his son. The film never promises this is possible, and we know that it's not even all that realistic.

Superman’s journey involves finding out that what his father wants is much, much harder than it seemed.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Probably a warning shot, to try to keep the screaming, irate man in a metal suit from attacking him again. Batman does attack again with guns. Superman tosses Batman around again, but this time he orders Batman to stay down and verbally expresses that he doesn't want him dead.

Later, after being gassed with K, he's fighting for his life.

And none of this makes sense, because all he has to do is say, "I am not here to fight Bruce" and hold him in place. If Clark really cares about his mother, he would do that. It is very simple, and does not involve any actual violence. Instead, he does the most violent thing possible. But Snyder thinks like a third grader, so it had to play out as such.

 

[Marvin]

I think people tend to forget that, while he has been Superman a while, this is still really Superman’s first exposure to the world. And the world sees him as a God. I don’t think that means we will never see him interact as a man. He clearly does in the montage. There’s a reason he’s shown hovering above, distant and obscured, and also gently lowering into the crowd with a gentle smile on his face. Immediately after that, yup, they treat him like a deity.

It's the difference in who he is and how they see him. Done with beautiful imagery and not a single word. Good stuff.

Whatever interesting ideas are being broached with the material here it's hitting a wall, of the 'he needs to be more human with the people he saves' variety. It's gotta be all sorts of frustrating for the artist imo. Anyways.

You raise an interesting observation. His first save of that montage was with the Mexican girl, the one where he got down into the crowd, he was smiling and everything with her then he turns around and people start doing that thing jon kent said they'd do. This concerns him(all no dialogue), as seen on his face and with the voice over.
Then the next scene we see him hovering at a distance, almost like a reaction from the last time he flew to close to man. Which probably compounds the issue but still, it's an interesting bit of visual story telling, and something not seen as often with this material but I find pretty viable.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yep. When you're trying to have a conversation with a huge dude who's kind of singularly focused on bashing your face in, you end up having to defend yourself whether you want to or not. If he didn't, Batman would definitely have killed him.

There is literally no reason why he couldn't just do to Batman what he did to the dude at the beginning of the movie. Not one. Well there is, it is called an inability to tell a story.

The idea that Superman is fighting for his life before he does the stupid crap he does is nonsense. But of course he has a time limit to save his mother. Best to do something really stupid.

 

[X Knight]

That is the last way you start the first JL story. With evil Superman. It sounds stupid enough for Snyder to do it.

Also your overall argument misses one thing. That is what we were promised for Superman in the film that followed MoS, and instead it got worse in that regard. If he shows up evil, why wouldn't it be worse?

I agree. evil Superman, brainwashed, Injustice style, or whatever would be the total WRONG way to go for JL.

I WILL draw the line if they do that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Whatever interesting ideas are being broached with the material here it's hitting a wall, of the 'he needs to be more human with the people he saves' variety. It's gotta be all sorts of frustrating for the artist imo. Anyways.

You raise an interesting observation. His first save of that montage was with the Mexican girl, the one where he got down into the crowd, he was smiling and everything with her then he turns around and people start doing that thing jon kent said they'd do. This concerns him(all no dialogue), as seen on his face and with the voice over.
Then the next scene we see him hovering at a distance, almost like a reaction from the last time he flew to close to man. Which probably compounds the issue but still, it's an interesting bit of visual story telling, and something not seen as often with this material but I find pretty viable.

More frustrating for the fans who understand the concept of Superman the alien who is more human then humans, is lost on the director. You know why Superman avoids the God persona? Because he doesn't act like one. But Snyder doesn't understand that.

 

[Marvin]

Batman and WW aren't into their second movie with a starring role. WW's role was only supporting, so naturally I accept less characterization there.

The message?

And yet they worked is my point. Expectation or not, for we all have different expectations(there are some people that want 10 films of characterization one film in). They work as characters again was my point.

And yea, I'm just asking what this coffin message was, I don't recall.

 

[The Guard]

What did batman just do? Was that after he'd already attacked supes with little trap?

Yep.

First thing Superman does after landing is try to appeal to Batman.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

And none of this makes sense, because all he has to do is say, "I am not here to fight Bruce" and hold him in place. If Clark really cares about his mother, he would do that. It is very simple, and does not involve any actual violence. Instead, he does the most violent thing possible. But Snyder thinks like a third grader, so it had to play out as such.

There's no reasoning with third graders

 

[MrsKent26]

All these negative posts from you are starting to concern me. It’s like you’re just assuming the worst.

Look, part of the reason Superman was “down” in BVS is that the world was treating him like a God, and then outright turned against him. He also saw the darker side of humanity quite clearly. The film makes that pretty clear.

I don’t think that’s going to be the case so much when he returns. We saw that at the end of the film, in both the world’s reaction to his actions, their treatment of him as a man, and their reverence for him as a hero.

On a side note, I love how many people are complaining about the possibility that Superman might get brainwashed by Darkseid. That’s like, one of the most BELOVED STAS episodes for fans. At least it used to be.

I am assuming the worst. I'm pulling a total Herolee (I say that with affection for herolee).

I'm assuming superman's character will be just as subverted in JL as I thought it was here, just for different reasons. I figure he'll be brainwashed or whatever for a bit and is not himself. Before that, he'll be dead for a bit. That's eating up time that could be used showing him as a true leader/gathering JL members, loving Lois, and enjoying this new public that has more love for him than ever or getting to know him further in general.

I didn't like that concept in STAS either, but even if I did, STAS supes had more opportunity to be an established character than this one did.

 

[The Guard]

That is the last way you start the first JL story. With evil Superman. It sounds stupid enough for Snyder to do it.

Also your overall argument misses one thing. That is what we were promised for Superman in the film that followed MoS, and instead it got worse in that regard. If he shows up evil, why wouldn't it be worse?

You realize that this is like, a key part of the classic modern Darkseid storyline, right?. I realize that "It's in the comics" isn't a great defense, but it is.

Why wouldn't it be worse? Because showing Superman evil then allows them to provide a stark contrast when he is returned to normal.

 

[The Endless]

Dawn of Justice is the alpha to Batman and Robin's omega. They are the flip side of the same coin. the light and the dark.

Are fans of this film not bothered that the Trinity barely interact in this film? Superman and Wonder Woman literally don't say a single word to each other. Superman doesn't even acknowledge that there is another superhuman on Earth.

A total missed opportunity.

 

[Predator jp]

....I'm not following you. Mind explaining?

i'm not so sure myself. maybe i have to see a couple more times to figure out.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

And none of this makes sense, because all he has to do is say, "I am not here to fight Bruce" and hold him in place. If Clark really cares about his mother, he would do that. It is very simple, and does not involve any actual violence. Instead, he does the most violent thing possible. But Snyder thinks like a third grader, so it had to play out as such.

Um...okay, let's review. The movie is about Superman needing to earn the trust of the world, and he's trying to get Batman to listen and trust him, too. Will grabbing and restraining the angry man make him listen to you? I almost feel like Superman goes through a few distinct stages. Trying to talk, trying to overpower Bruce and make him listen, and finally letting Bruce kick his ass in order to prove his point. But maybe I'm misremembering. It's been over a week since I've seen it.

 

[The Guard]

And none of this makes sense, because all he has to do is say, "I am not here to fight Bruce" and hold him in place. If Clark really cares about his mother, he would do that. It is very simple, and does not involve any actual violence. Instead, he does the most violent thing possible. But Snyder thinks like a third grader, so it had to play out as such.

And we come back to: Characters in movies don't always take the most prudent course of action. That kills dramatic potential. And would be pretty boring. Also, there's no guarantee Batman wouldn't still attack him somehow.

 

[Marvin]

More frustrating for the fans who understand the concept of Superman the alien who is more human then humans, is lost on the director. You know why Superman avoids the God persona? Because he doesn't act like one. But Snyder doesn't understand that.

So he acts like a god in these movies?

 

[The Endless]

You realize that this is like, a key part of the classic modern Darkseid storyline, right?. I realize that "It's in the comics" isn't a great defense, but it is.

Why wouldn't it be worse? Because showing Superman evil then allows them to provide a stark contrast when he is returned to normal.

Because we haven't even seen a full formed, comfortable in his own skin Superman yet.

Before you deconstruct something you have to construct it first...

Bringing Superman back as an evil Darkseid zombie would further cement the point that Snyder doesn't understand or like the traditional Superman character.