BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Par

[Marvin]

At this point it's clear we're not getting another Superman solo film, the death of superman has already happened, Clark Kent has been killed, hell, even Jimmy Olsen is dead, I know most of you don't care for that but it's clear we're never gonna get that SM/CK/Daily Planet dynamic with him and the entire team. The future looks bleak for superman. I can see him having a visually stunning return and a couple of good CGI fights and that's about it.

So we are likely getting another cyborg movie, an ant man movie but no more superman movies. He's pretty much as dead as he was post SR at this point, the two movies he's lead up lately doing as big a number as the the bulk of his contemporaries and you feel he's only going to have a few more cgi fights and that's it eh.
That's definitely a shame.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Dawn of Justice is the alpha to Batman and Robin's omega. They are the flip side of the same coin. the light and the dark.

Are fans of this film not bothered that the Trinity barely interact in this film? Superman and Wonder Woman literally don't say a single word to each other. Superman doesn't even acknowledge that there is another superhuman on Earth.

A total missed opportunity.

I'm not bothered by that in the slightest. There wasn't time for that in the context of the movie. He obviously is questioning who sho is with the "Is she with you?" line- There wasn't much time to play catch up- I imagine Justice League will play on that.

 

[The Shape]

And none of this makes sense, because all he has to do is say, "I am not here to fight Bruce" and hold him in place. If Clark really cares about his mother, he would do that. It is very simple, and does not involve any actual violence. Instead, he does the most violent thing possible. But Snyder thinks like a third grader, so it had to play out as such.

He literally says, "Bruce, please. I was wrong. You have to listen to me. Lex wants -- " and then gets blasted for the first time. Then he says something like, "You don't understand. There's no time."

Superman wasn't there to fight, which is clear, but Batman was. It's obvious that Batman wasn't letting up and planned/instigated the entire thing. Superman had no idea what he was walking into or what this guy was capable of, and he repeatedly tries to get Batman down to reason with him while Batman continues to attack him until he can gas him.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

There is literally no reason why he couldn't just do to Batman what he did to the dude at the beginning of the movie. Not one. Well there is, it is called an inability to tell a story.

The idea that Superman is fighting for his life before he does the stupid crap he does is nonsense. But of course he has a time limit to save his mother. Best to do something really stupid.

What dude at the beginning of the movie? The guy he took through the wall? How's that help? He could have just killed Batman but he doesn't WANT to, because he's Superman.

 

[Andreth]

I am assuming the worst. I'm pulling a total Herolee (I say that with affection for herolee).

I'm assuming superman's character will be just as subverted in JL as I thought it was here, just for different reasons. I figure he'll be brainwashed or whatever for a bit and is not himself. Before that, he'll be dead for a bit. That's eating up time that could be used showing him as a true leader/gathering JL members, loving Lois, and enjoying this new public that has more love for him than ever or getting to know him further in general.

I didn't like that concept in STAS either, but even if I did, STAS supes had more opportunity to be an established character than this one did.

Lol me too
I'm with you on this MrsKent26

I mean, Justice League was already planned and scripted, do you really think the BvS reception is gonna change anything? it's the same team, how can we expect things to be different this time?

If they didn't change anything after all that criticism towards Man of Steel about the destruction of Metropolis, how can we expect changes in the direction they're taking Superman? they didn't really address the Metropolis destruction in BvS, the whole reason Batman hated him had little to do with that, and Superman's problems with the government were for an entire different reason. They just added a couple of lines here and there with "thank god those building doomsday is destroying are empty"

 

[The Guard]

More frustrating for the fans who understand the concept of Superman the alien who is more human then humans, is lost on the director. You know why Superman avoids the God persona? Because he doesn't act like one. But Snyder doesn't understand that.

That's not entirely true. There are plenty of Superman stories where he struggles with whether to work above humanity on his own terms or to allow them to dictate how he operates. Which this film obviously explored.

 

[X Knight]

He literally says, "Bruce, please. I was wrong. You have to listen to me. Lex wants -- " and then gets blasted for the first time. Then he says something like, "You don't understand. There's no time."

Superman wasn't there to fight, which is clear, but Batman was. It's obvious that Batman wasn't letting up and planned/instigated the entire thing. Superman had no idea what he was walking into or what this guy was capable of, and he repeatedly tries to get Batman down to reason with him while Batman continues to attack him until he can gas him.

yep.

 

[Aquafinn90]

And we come back to: Characters in movies don't always take the most prudent course of action. That kills dramatic potential. And would be pretty boring. Also, there's no guarantee Batman wouldn't still attack him somehow.

This. There is always ways that conflicts in movies could have been avoided. That being said, it's not as if Superman didn't try to talk to him. Batman was having none of it.

 

[The Endless]

He didn't need to throw him through the building.

 

[The Guard]

Because we haven't even seen a full formed, comfortable in his own skin Superman yet.

Before you deconstruct something you have to construct it first...

Bringing Superman back as an evil Darkseid zombie would further cement the point that Snyder doesn't understand or like the traditional Superman character.

It's not deconstruction to present a character being brainwashed...

 

[Aquafinn90]

He didn't need to throw him through the building.

At that point he was showing him that he doesn't stand a chance. He literally tells him immediately after there "Stand down. If I wanted it, You'd be dead already" but Batman just keeps going. Immediately following this, he shots the Kyrphonie grenade at him.

 

[The Endless]

That's not entirely true. There are plenty of Superman stories where he struggles with whether to work above humanity on his own terms or to allow them to dictate how he operates. Which this film obviously explored.

Those stories were created AFTER Superman had been "constructed" though.

You don't do a deconstruction story straight off the bat.

 

[MrsKent26]

Probably a warning shot, to try to keep the screaming, irate man in a metal suit from attacking him again. Batman does attack again with guns. Superman tosses Batman around again, but this time he orders Batman to stay down and verbally expresses that he doesn't want him dead.

Later, after being gassed with K, he's fighting for his life.

I see. Makes sense. I forgot some of the circumstances to the fight, it seems.

That whole scene of superman getting beat post-K bomb was hard to watch. I don't mean that as criticism; it should be hard to watch such a thing. But man...I felt for supes there.

I assure you it's the case. Strangely, I missed that first half of the line on my first viewing, and then on my second viewing I heard it and was like, "OHHHHhhhhhh..." because I was weirded out by it too on my first viewing.

Left me even more confused that Clark had decided to talk it out when he got there. Second viewing cleared that one right up.

Huh. I have been enlightened a little on this day. I never looked at the scene this way. I thought it was just superman doing what he shouldn't do and giving up hope. But this...seems to be a valid interpretation.

This trailer still gives me chills

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The music, the tone, everything looked wonderful, it gave you such sense of hope

MOS trailer 3! I knew you were gonna post this as soon as I saw "chills" and a youtube code. It really was epic, wasn't it? This made it my most anticipated movie ever.

Look at that warmth from him. Love it. That's acting folks. Superman to the core.

At this point it's clear we're not getting another Superman solo film, the death of superman has already happened, Clark Kent has been killed, hell, even Jimmy Olsen is dead, I know most of you don't care for that but it's clear we're never gonna get that SM/CK/Daily Planet dynamic with him and the entire team. The future looks bleak for superman. I can see him having a visually stunning return and a couple of good CGI fights and that's about it.

It does seem like we're done getting DP scenes.

And yet they worked is my point. Expectation or not, for we all have different expectations(there are some people that want 10 films of characterization one film in). They work as characters again was my point.

And yea, I'm just asking what this coffin message was, I don't recall.

Yeah, they did. Better than supes at least, but expectations are different.

It was something like "If you want to see his legacy, look around you." If anyone remembers it better, feel free to correct me, but that's the gist of it.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

He has this huge sad face on as he says, "nobody stays good forever" implying he is willing to kill Batman. Don't act like that didn't happen that way, because it did.

Yes it did happen that way. Except he said something like, "I'm going to ask him to help me," or words to that effect. "Nobody stays good in this world," or whatever the line was. You can't have the one without the other.

If he wanted to talk to Batman, he could have. Told him right away what was going on. Nope, had to push him them put him through a building. Really sounds like Superman was trying really hard there....

And you're ignoring the whole, "Bruce, listen to me, I was wrong," thing. He DID try to talk to him. Batman wasn't having it.

 

[The Endless]

At that point he was showing him that he doesn't stand a chance. He literally tells him immediately after there "Stand down. If I wanted it, You'd be dead already" but Batman just keeps going. Immediately following this, he shots the Kyrphonie grenade at him.

Yes, Superman threatening someone with death. That's fantastic.

It should have been a plea rather than a threat.

 

[Aquafinn90]

I see. Makes sense. I forgot some of the circumstances to the fight, it seems.

That whole scene of superman getting beat post-K bomb was hard to watch. I don't mean that as criticism; it should be hard to watch such a thing. But man...I felt for supes there.



Huh. I have been enlightened a little on this day. I never looked at the scene this way. I thought it was just superman doing what he shouldn't do and giving up hope. But this...seems to be a valid interpretation.



MOS trailer 3! I knew you were gonna post this as soon as I saw "chills" and a youtube code. It really was epic, wasn't it? This made it my most anticipated movie ever.


Look at that warmth from him. Love it. That's acting folks. Superman to the core.


It does seem like we're done getting DP scenes.



Yeah, they did. Better than supes at least, but expectations are different.

It was something like "If you want to see his legacy, look around you." If anyone remembers it better, feel free to correct me, but that's the gist of it.

"If you seek his monument, look around you"

 

[The Guard]

Lol me too
I'm with you on this MrsKent26

If they didn't change anything after all that criticism towards Man of Steel about the destruction of Metropolis, how can we expect changes in the direction they're taking Superman? they didn't really address the Metropolis destruction in BvS, the whole reason Batman hated him had little to do with that, and Superman's problems with the government were for an entire different reason. They just added a couple of lines here and there with "thank god those building doomsday is destroying are empty"

Ummm...

-They very much addressed the destruction. Did you not see the memorial to the victims, Bruce Wayne's reaction to the destruction and existence of Superman, the exploration of the disaster's aftermath, specifically with regard to Wallace Keefe, and the fact that Superman is pulled into a court appearance with one of the victims of the disaster and lectured about the will of the people? They created an entire subplot surrounding a specific victim. How is that not addressing it?

-Saying "that place is abandoned", and actively taking Doomsday somehwere that is not populated are directly addressing some of the issues people had. In fact, these were suggestions many fans repeated ad nauseum after the movie.

-Showed Superman taking Doomsday into space, away from the populated area. Again, a suggestion many fans repeated ad nasueum after the film.

Aside from giving Superman more to say and not having him save enough single people (though we saw several rescue sequences), what other concerns didn't they address? They even showed Superman smiling more often.

 

[MrsKent26]

Yes, Superman threatening someone with death. That's fantastic.

It should have been a plea rather than a threat.

I'm not seeing how that's a threat. That's him saying that he isn't going to kill him.

"If you seek his monument, look around you"

Ah, that's it. Thanks.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Yes, Superman threatening someone with death. That's fantastic.

It should have been a plea rather than a threat.

Well I can't help you then. I don't have the attachment to the character of "Superman" that you do. Nor does it matter much to me. I look at these as movies, not as adaptations of comics. The same way I look at any adaptation first and foremost really. How it stands on its own, not how it stands as an adaptation.

Not saying that you're wrong for having expectations of a character either, btw.

 

[The Guard]

Yes, Superman threatening someone with death. That's fantastic.

It should have been a plea rather than a threat.

He's not threatening him with death. He's explaining that he doesn't want to kill him, but pointing out how much power he has. It sets up the reversal of the Kryptonite.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

At this point it's clear we're not getting another Superman solo film, the death of superman has already happened, Clark Kent has been killed, hell, even Jimmy Olsen is dead, I know most of you don't care for that but it's clear we're never gonna get that SM/CK/Daily Planet dynamic with him and the entire team. The future looks bleak for superman. I can see him having a visually stunning return and a couple of good CGI fights and that's about it.

1.) You don't think Clark's gonna stay dead, do you?

2.) Jimmy Olsen is not dead. He wasn't even in the movie.

 

[Marvin]

He didn't need to throw him through the building.

I find it all rather simple actually.
If batman was sitting high atop a perch with some 50 caliber weapon on full auto and superman was there to talk. Batman unloading a burst every time superman starts a new sentence, it's only reasonable that superman will disarm him so that he can finally get the message across. It's pretty clear at a certain point that superman was aiming to put bruce on his butt away from his toys and just talk to him. Given superman exists in this world as a man that can't be physically challenged he probably approaches things differently.

Taking him up atop that building and away from his preferred position was actually a sound plan(batman was probably planning on a ground fight). Had this whole thing gone down without the kryptonite superman would have forced batman to sit and listen with plenty of time to spare. You can see it all go to hell not when superman catches the grenade but after it explodes.

 

[Aquafinn90]

1.) You don't think Clark's gonna stay dead, do you?

2.) Jimmy Olsen is not dead. He wasn't even in the movie.

Well, he was actually. Snyder confirmed that the CIA guy with Lois i the beginning is Jimmy Olsen. The Ultimate Cut will flesh that out more.

 

[The Guard]

Those stories were created AFTER Superman had been "constructed" though.

You don't do a deconstruction story straight off the bat.

That's not really a deconstruction either. And these types of story elements date back to the early days.

He was originally portrayed as something of a vigilante who answered to no one.

 

[Snow Queen]

1.) You don't think Clark's gonna stay dead, do you?

2.) Jimmy Olsen is not dead. He wasn't even in the movie.

[BLACKOUT]They shot him in the head in the first fifteen minutes of the movie.[/BLACKOUT]