BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

[gdw]

Again, so you need to have a preexisting familiarity of the character to know his place in this movie. "Do your homework before you go see this movie" is a really silly excuse to explain bad storytelling.

You're ommiting/ignoring a very key part of what he's saying. The word "IF."

"Doing your homework" is not a prerequisite when talking about characters that are as much a part of our cultural subconscious, like Batman and Superman are. These are our modern myths.

The film doesn't need to spell out every thing about Batman, and everyone in his life. Hell, people are complaining that they even bothered to show his parents deaths again, event though it served the story this film was telling.

There's no need to spell out who Alfred is. Even if you've NEVER seen a Batman film before, or somehow are one of the only people on the planet who's never heard of this "Bat-man", Alfred is obviously Bruce's one confidant in the world, and partner in his mission as the Batman. What more do you need to know that's not given in the movie, to watch the film?
That's right, nothing.

IF you want to know more, (that's the part you left out, the contingent clause,) then yeah, you can "do more homework." But that's NOT a prerequisite for seeing the film, nor for enjoying it. It is simply a prescription for anyone who personally wishes to know more.

Same as seeing the Donner/Reeve films were not prerequisite viewing for Superman Returns, nor are all the individual Marvel films prerequisite viewing for the Avengers films. But if you WANT to fill out your viewing experience, by all means, do your homework and watch those movies. It absolutely will enhance your viewing experience, but don't claim they were necessary to watch or understand in the first place. That's simply not true.

 

[FunkMiller]

he wants to have the worlds savior and hero shamed by KILLING Batman on live TV.

Doomsday is there to kill Superman and save the world from this "killer Superman" who can't be trusted or loved anymore. Lex to the rescue.

Why would anyone be ashamed of Superman stopping a dangerous vigilante? And I thought a lot of the world didn't trust Superman? And as people have mentioned elsewhere... how do you know the fight is televised?

And who's there to kill Doomsday?

Sorry, but this is just bad writing.

The reason why Lex sends Superman off to fight Batman is because this movie is called Batman v Superman. You can jump through whatever logic hoops you want, but the double handed plot of creating Doomsday to kill Superman and cultivating hatred in Batman for Superman so he kills him makes no sense as a strategy. He's creating contingencies that all result in his failure. Not the work of a genius.

Either way Lex is opening himself up to either death at the hands of Doomsday, or incarceration at the hands of Batman. Or if neither of those happen and Superman wins, he fails as well.

One or either plan at a time is fine, but both together is dumb.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Here's the deal: I don't really think the Knightmare sequence of the little JL character snippets are all that bad, they are just positioned awkwardly within the film.

Now if they were after the credits, it would have been nice teasers for the JL movie. They just don't "fit" within the movie's narrative.

Why do they need to be after credits? After credits scenes are silly. Marvel has commandeered the gimmick and it works for what they do. It shouldn't turn into something everyone uses. Let's keep after credit scenes unique to Marvel.

The knightmare scene was key to ending the fight with Superman. Once he learned that a human was the key and that same human showed up to save the alien, the alien with a human mother, Bruce was able to put everything together in his eureka moment.

 

[Wylie Times]

Wait. The Superman and Batman fight was televised?

Lex had cameras on a boat or something...

But even though it was televised Lex nor the mercs holding Martha were watching, which is why they didn't see Batman or Superman fly away in opposite directions.

But hey, those aren't plot holes, we're just nitpicking the film.

 

[Aquafinn90]

I think there's a distinction, though. A film can set out to be a great adaptation and be a great adaptation, that's fine. The Harry Potter series wasn't a commercial for the books, it was a cohesive storyline that readers and non-readers could enjoy.

enjoy? yes
cohesive storyline? not the movies, they cut out parts of storylines, but let other parts in- a lot of key things didn't make much sense if you didn't read the books- and this is coming from someone who is a huge fan of the books and read them a million times

LOTR is much more cohesive
but this is off topic now

 

[Wylie Times]

Here's the deal: I don't really think the Knightmare sequence of the little JL character snippets are all that bad, they are just positioned awkwardly within the film.

Now if they were after the credits, it would have been nice teasers for the JL movie. They just don't "fit" within the movie's narrative.

I agree with this 100%

 

[Rapunzel]

Oh good Lawd.....Alfred explicitly encourages Bruce to bring a woman home. And Bruce is shown in bed with a woman! This is obviousness in the extreme that they are NOT LOVERS!! People who think otherwise are just not paying attention!!!!!!!!!! That is their problem, not the movie's.

You may not get clarity as to what Alfred's actual role is, but he is positively not Bruce's gay lover and that is just failure to see what's in front of you if you think otherwise.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

None of those answer my question though:

Why does Lex send Superman off to fight Batman, when he has Doomsday to do it for him? Why specifically send Superman to Gotham to fight Batman when Doomsday is right there in the ship, waiting to be used?

Batman stole his kryptonite. If Superman returns with a dead batman, he can frame Superman as a killer and he can easily retrieve the remaining kryptonite. What happens when Lex releases Doomsday and Superman beats him? Lex still has the kryptonite.

 

[Flint Marko]

Wait. The Superman and Batman fight was televised?

It wasn't. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that incorrect detail mentioned by someone who claimed to have understood the film?

 

[The Joker]

You may not get clarity as to what Alfred's actual role is, but he is positively not Bruce's gay lover and that is just failure to see what's in front of you if you think otherwise.

Alfred....Bruce's gay lover.....what

 

[Aquafinn90]

Alfred....Bruce's gay lover.....what

yes apparently there was some confusion as to who Alfred was in relation to Bruce if you hadn't seen/read previous batman stories....if you can even believe that one

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

To the overwhelming majority of the audience, apparently.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.
- H. L. Mencken

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
— H. L. Mencken

 

[gdw]

Completely disagreed. This movie is poorly written. I'm so completely sick of people blaming the audience for not understanding what the film makers were trying to convey. That's on them for making a muddled, ineffective story. Note that Nolan never had this issue, and all three of his Batman movies were more thematically complex and character-driven than BvS.

You're "disagreeing" with objective facts then, because all that's being said is that the answers to ALL of these question, and claimed "plot holes" ARE in the film. That's simply a fact.

Whether or not you saw them when you watched the film is another matter, but there are all things that are undeniable answered in the film, which, by definition, makes them NOT plot holes.

They're not all spoon fed explanations, but it's all there non the less, and sometimes they even are spoon fed.

You may not have missed it all, but a HELL of a lot of other people had absolutely NO problem seeing it, and all without repeat viewings.
So, either everyone else is paying way TOO much attention when they watched the film, or maybe others weren't and just wanted everything spoon fed to them.

 

[javonstokess]

Why do they need to be after credits? After credits scenes are silly. Marvel has commandeered the gimmick and it works for what they do. It shouldn't turn into something everyone uses. Let's keep after credit scenes unique to Marvel.

The knightmare scene was key to ending the fight with Superman. Once he learned that a human was the key and that same human showed up to save the alien, the alien with a human mother, Bruce was able to put everything together in his eureka moment.

...I just told you why is should be after the credits. It doesn't fit the narrative of the story. BTW, movies were doing after credits sequences LONG before Marvel.

In what way was the Knightmare scene key to ending the fight with Superman. Flash says "Lois is the key".

 

[Rapunzel]

Alfred....Bruce's gay lover.....what

Some people have been saying that it could be read that way cause there's not enough explaination who Alfred is. Maddeningly stupid.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Alfred....Bruce's gay lover.....what

Poniboy said he saw the movie with a friend who thought Alfred was Bruce's gay lover because the movie never declares Alfred his butler.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

...I just told you why is should be after the credits. It doesn't fit the narrative of the story. BTW, movies were doing after credits sequences LONG before Marvel.

In what way was the Knightmare scene key to ending the fight with Superman. Flash says "Lois is the key".

I just told you. You read posts like you watch movies. Maybe some adderall?

 

[Aquafinn90]

Poniboy said he saw the movie with a friend who thought Alfred was Bruce's gay lover because the movie never declares Alfred his butler.

people were just determined to hate this movie, so now we are grasping at straws to find things wrong with it. problem is, nearly all of the things people deem "wrong" with it come down to either opinion, or are non-sensical because the answers are right there, in the movie, no other research or repeat viewings needed. I thought this movie was a masterpiece of a CBM. So excited to see what the Ultimate Cut has in store!

 

[Rapunzel]

Lex....so your reading of the knightmare/flash thing is that it stops the fight? Thus preventing Lois from dying and Supes going evil?

Interesting....what about the "too soon, too soon" aspect of the warning?

 

[Wylie Times]

Why do they need to be after credits? After credits scenes are silly. Marvel has commandeered the gimmick and it works for what they do. It shouldn't turn into something everyone uses. Let's keep after credit scenes unique to Marvel.

The knightmare scene was key to ending the fight with Superman. Once he learned that a human was the key and that same human showed up to save the alien, the alien with a human mother, Bruce was able to put everything together in his eureka moment.

It absolutely is not key to ending the fight with Superman.

You and a bunch of other posters have been saying for weeks that the whole set up for the "Martha" thing was "brilliant" simply because Snyder kept hammering the audience over the head with the name leading up to that point. Now all of a sudden the "Knightmare" scene is also an integral part of the movie?

And didn't one of the producers say that stuff was added after the script was done because they wanted to throw in some fun teases for the justice league movie?

 

[Aquafinn90]

Lex....so your reading of the knightmare/flash thing is that it stops the fight? Thus preventing Lois from dying and Supes going evil?

Interesting....what about the "too soon, too soon" aspect of the warning?

Wait is that what he thought?

To me the entire point of that scene was a giant Justice League teaser
I could see how people are turned off by that because obviously nothing about that scene is resolved in the movie. I however, love the setup for future films, though part of me wonders if that particular scene would have been better left in the Ultimate Cut- In fact I'm just about positive that it would have done better there.

 

[Flint Marko]

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.
- H. L. Mencken

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
— H. L. Mencken

So WB should make four-quadrant, multi-billion dollar franchises off of successful superhero properties that intentionally divide audiences? That's a terrible plan from a financial and creative standpoint.
I guess Nolan's TDK trilogy was a misfire since it went over well with both critics and audiences.

You're "disagreeing" with objective facts then, because all that's being said is that the answers to ALL of these question, and claimed "plot holes" ARE in the film. That's simply a fact.

Whether or not you saw them when you watched the film is another matter, but there are all things that are undeniable answered in the film, which, by definition, makes them NOT plot holes.

They're not all spoon fed explanations, but it's all there non the less, and sometimes they even are spoon fed.

You may not have missed it all, but a HELL of a lot of other people had absolutely NO problem seeing it, and all without repeat viewings.
So, either everyone else is paying way TOO much attention when they watched the film, or maybe others weren't and just wanted everything spoon fed to them.

The fact that we the viewers are being blamed for their poor story-telling is infuriating. You can't sit here and say it's a "fact" that everything was clearly in the movie when so many people, not just here, left the film describing it as "muddled" and "nonsensical". If you want to bend over backwards and fill in the gaps left by Snyder and co. in an attempt to make it seem like a functioning narrative then have it, but I'm not going to pretend this is anything other than what it is.

 

[javonstokess]

I just told you. You read posts like you watch movies. Maybe some adderall?

Lol, I'll ignore the insult.

How does Lois stop the fight? Doesn't Superman saying "Save Martha" stop the fight?

She comes in after to explain, but she doesn't really "save" him.

Whatever. Rationalize it how you like, the sequence is clumsy and shoehorned in. The whole movie is a clumsily written and directed, WB mandated exercise to copy, but not really copy Marvel's shared movie universe concept. You can come up with all the logic leaps your like, but you know it, they know it and we all know it.

 

[TripleJ]

Why would anyone be ashamed of Superman stopping a dangerous vigilante? And I thought a lot of the world didn't trust Superman? And as people have mentioned elsewhere... how do you know the fight is televised?

No, most of the world supports him. But, a vocal minority is afraid of him.

It sorts of like in real world issues, where vocal minority may seem like the majority because of how "loud" they are.

There's two pieces of evidence to support this:

The memorial park and Clark himself says that most of the world views him favorably.

(Now, favorable could mean a couple of things - obviously there are those who view him as a God, as shown in the Dead of the Dead scene).

Even Senator Finch isn't distrustful - she's on the rational side, and wants to talk it out (rather than do what many Governments normally do - taking action without thinking about it ).

 

[Aquafinn90]

The fact that we the viewers are being blamed for their poor story-telling is infuriating. You can't sit here and say it's a "fact" that everything was clearly in the movie when so many people, not just here, left the film describing it as "muddled" and "nonsensical". If you want to bend over backwards and fill in the gaps left by Snyder and co. in an attempt to make it seem like a functioning narrative then have it, but I'm not going to pretend this is anything other than what it is.

Well it is a fact that all these points were in the movie. there is NO bending over backwards to explain anything. Which is why I am utterly baffled about the confusion surrounding some of these plot points. Honestly, I just don't get it. My friends didn't have a problem following the story whatsoever either, and as I stated earlier, they are very casual fans, only saw MOS once back when it was in theaters. Well, with the exception of the Knightmare Sequence obviously.