BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

[javonstokess]

With the word boy in his username its too be expected, Im just watching his post and laughing at how absurd they are.

His point is that the movie assumes that you know everything you need to know about the "new" characters to the MoS franchise.

He's just having a bit of fun with you guys too.

 

[Flint Marko]

Bruce is shown in bed with a woman. And Alfred clearly jokes about Bruce taking a lady home from Lex's party. They are obviously not lovers. It is clearly negated in the film, and your friend needs to pay attention. As do you.

Yeah if you didn't like/understand the movie it's because you're clearly not paying attention

 

[Aquafinn90]

What? Where is Alfred in all this stuff? Unless you look for info on movies or cartoons or comics you have no idea who the guy is. You're making it sound like he's James Bond, ingrained in the pop culture lexicon of every day familiarity. My friend works in the fashion biz. She saw the movie because people took her to see it. If she didn't understand elements of the characters because the movie failed to deliver them that's not her fault, and she can make all the assumptions she wants about them without really being wrong.

nah thats totally her fault
all the info you need on Alfred is in the movie, as I stated
you cited the fact that somewhere (not in the movie) it was reveled he was a retired British Spy. Okay thats great, but thats not information needed in the movie whatsoever to understand his character. Like I said its all there.

Just like the "lack of motivations" for Lex. Literally all right in the movie

Same with the "The Senate Bomb didn't make sense because the newscaster even revealed it was a bomb was in the wheelchair" - again they literally explained that the reason that Superman got the blame was because they assumed he mustve known the bomb was there but did nothing about it.

All these "plot holes" and "non-sensical" storytelling doesn't come from it being poorly written. It comes from people just not paying any attention at all.

 

[Supernova]

Has Snyder really mentioned not being a fan of the character? I mean I can tell he doesn't like Superman but I didn't know he's outright admitted it.

Ive never heard him say anything in that realm not too mention he did 2 superman films now. If you dont like a character you dont make 2 films with that character

 

[Supernova]

His point is that the movie assumes that you know everything you need to know about the "new" characters to the MoS franchise.

He's just having a bit of fun with you guys too.

More like annoying but what are you gonna do

 

[Predator jp]

the movie has some parts that is relying on the audience's knowledge of other versions of the character, and some parts that gives you a new take on characters so i can see that contradiction does not sit well with some audience.

 

[javonstokess]

Ive never heard him say anything in that realm not too mention he did 2 superman films now. If you dont like a character you dont make 2 films with that character

Sure you do...if the check is large enough.

 

[Wylie Times]

Does she need to though? Alfred's in print media, game media, tv media and all over the internet. I can't imagine how someone would not know who Alfred is by now. She must be seriously behind on technology.

The works of Shakespeare have been printed and acted out on stages for hundreds of years, generations upon generations of kids were required to read, sit through or act in those plays....but guarantee the average person doesn't know who Banquo, Mercutio, or Iago are or their relationships to the main characters in those plays.

Just because something has been around for a long time and appeared in various forms of media doesn't mean that EVERYONE knows the details.

 

[javonstokess]

Let me also say, that I've said before that their is a good movie somewhere in BvS. If you re-edit the majority of it, re-cast Lex Luthor and cut some pieces out, it's probably one of the best CBM's ever.

 

[Aquafinn90]

1. It seems like people are confused about the difference between Easter Eggs and Plot points.

2. Bringing up Iron Man 2 and AOU, both films that people have had a relatively negative reaction to, doesn't prove your point. It actually does the opposite.

3. When you have the World's Greatest Detective ignoring the "obvious" threat of Lex Luthor for the more..."subtle"(?) threat of Superman, you're just reaching to find a reason for them to fight.

4. Frankly, if you think the 1% or the "do you bleed" line is good writing when it's coming out of Batman's mouth, then I really don't know what to tell you. I just don't think you "get" the character of Batman or you WANT Batman to speak that way.

5. Snyder has admitted to not liking the character of Superman which is why he's made some of the changes he did. Frankly, he should have just done a TDKR movie instead.

I'm sorry, but from Bruce's perspective what was the "obvious" thread of Lex?

I think you are literally the only one I've heard have a problem with the dialogue in either of those scenes. Of all the complaints people have about this movie, the dialogue hasn't been one of them. As for not "getting" the character of Batman, maybe the Batman in other iterations wouldn't have said that, but they are presenting us with a different Batman here than has been seen before. If you don't like how they handled the character that is fine, but his dialogue fits perfectly with the character that they have created for this movie.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

1. It seems like people are confused about the difference between Easter Eggs and Plot points.

It seems like people are confused in general.

2. Bringing up Iron Man 2 and AOU, both films that people have had a relatively negative reaction to, doesn't prove your point. It actually does the opposite.

So Ironman 2 and Age of Ultron are as bad if not more so than BvS? I agree.

3. When you have the World's Greatest Detective ignoring the "obvious" threat of Lex Luthor for the more..."subtle"(?) threat of Superman, you're just reaching to find a reason for them to fight.

Batman's got bigger fish to fry than Luthor. He wants to take on a god, not some human with a god complex. In the end, all the negatives Luthor did was about Superman so Batman went directly to the source.

4. Frankly, if you think the 1% or the "do you bleed" line is good writing when it's coming out of Batman's mouth, then I really don't know what to tell you. I just don't think you "get" the character of Batman or you WANT Batman to speak that way.

So after seeing what happened to Harvey Dent, himself and others, it's out of Bruce Wayne's character to suspect, just as Lex does, that power can't be innocent? If Superman decided to rule the Earth, there is nothing anyone can do about it. That type of power is too much to be allowed to exist in Bruce's mind. To Bruce, Superman is the ultimate challenge. His question to Superman asking if he bled was his warning back to Superman after Superman just warned him.

5. Snyder has admitted to not liking the character of Superman which is why he's made some of the changes he did. Frankly, he should have just done a TDKR movie instead.

I'd like to see that quote because I've actually heard and read him say the exact opposite.

 

[Supernova]

Sure you do...if the check is large enough.

I dont man he did turn down the 300 sequel oppurtinity to do these 2 films and set up a whole Universe. He probabbly got offered a large portion as well for the 300 sequel

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Let me also say, that I've said before that their is a good movie somewhere in BvS. If you re-edit the majority of it, re-cast Lex Luthor and cut some pieces out, it's probably one of the best CBM's ever.

I keep hearing this issue with editing but never hear of any specific scenes. Could you elaborate?

 

[gdw]

None. At. All. Both were out of place, looked confusing, and had no place in the context of the story itself.

I disagree. While AoU maybe was more egregious, especially with what they ended up showing, it served the purpose of telling Thor the truth about Vision.

Like I said though, what they actually ended up showing didn't quite convey that, as much as they spelled it out for us later via Thor himself.


However, in BvS, while yes it is definitely serving as set up for more down the road, it's purpose in BvS is very clear, and absolutely serves the story.

First of, and again, it's meant to be misinterpreted by Bruce, AND the audience, as being about Batman and Superman's conflict with each other, and the ultimate road that could lead to.

In that context, how does it do anything BUT serve the story?
Prior to that, Bruce is, while heading in that direction, not hardened in his resolve to actually destroy the Superman.

He see's the threat, he has the rage, and Alfred sees it, and states that things have changed, but Bruce still denies it.

It's the Knightmare, and the message that he was "always right about him", that push Bruce over the line, and he actually commits to "destroy him."

In other words, that's the point that Bruce goes past the point of no return. That's the point that his mind is made up about his course of action; after he sees the manifestation of everything he's feared, and he's told he absolutely was right.

He's seen that it WILL happen, that it IS an absolute certainty. Without the vision, Bruce's "If there's even a 1% change . . . we have to take it as an absolute certainty, and we have to destroy him" makes zero sense.

Without the Knightmare, this reasoning, and the entire film, is just Bruce acting out of character, and doing something Batman would never do, and it just becomes a writer and director badly misunderstanding the character.
Sure, he'd be PREPARED to do it, should Superman ever ACTUALLY become a direct threat, but Batman would NEVER push to act preemptively

THAT is the purpose the vision serves in BvS, and that is how it serves the story in this film.
ON TOP of that it also serves the SECONDARY purpose of setting up the Justice League.

Everyone criticizing it is completely ignoring all of the above, and only focusing on/obsessing over the SECONDARY purpose of the scene, acting like that was the ONLY purpose of it.

 

[Aquafinn90]

I keep hearing this issue with editing but never hear of any specific scenes. Could you elaborate?

I'm with you. I see of lot of reviewers/fans saying "there are a lot of flaws and bad editing in this movie" and then theres NO elaboration. I will say the editing was less conventional than your typical movie but that hardly makes it "bad." On the contrary I thought it worked very well to balance all the storylines without making it feel overstuffed. I realize that I am in the minority, but then again, I usually am in the minority in my opinions.

 

[Cats]

What? Where is Alfred in all this stuff? Unless you look for info on movies or cartoons or comics you have no idea who the guy is.

Batman's had 8 films since '89, he's had cartoons all to himself, shared cartoons, 3D animation, comics, critically acclaimed game series etc and Alfred's been in every single one. Just the talk generated from all that content, not to mention all the youtube channels, jokes, memes and what-have-you-nots on the internet is enough to get word around on who this Alfred character is. In a sense, he is part of our pop culture scene, even though he got weaseled in because of Batman. It's not BvS' job to cater to people who are this uninformed, or are unable to make a simple deduction based on dialogue in a film. Even Marvel movies occasionally throw in new characters without needing to read their entire profiles to its audiences. If people are interested, they will do their homework. That's the movie industry of the 21st century.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Yeah if you didn't like/understand the movie it's because you're clearly not paying attention

From the majority of the complaints I've read on here, that's exactly the case.

Now, if there were more legit complaints that didn't come from someone missing a part of the movie, I'm all ears. Just haven't seen many.

 

[Supernova]

I keep hearing this issue with editing but never hear of any specific scenes. Could you elaborate?

Besides a few scenes ending in a black randomly I cant think of any real issues. The editing was a strong point of this movie

 

[javonstokess]

I'm sorry, but from Bruce's perspective what was the "obvious" thread of Lex?

I think you are literally the only one I've heard have a problem with the dialogue in either of those scenes. Of all the complaints people have about this movie, the dialogue hasn't been one of them. As for not "getting" the character of Batman, maybe the Batman in other iterations wouldn't have said that, but they are presenting us with a different Batman here than has been seen before. If you don't like how they handled the character that is fine, but his dialogue fits perfectly with the character that they have created for this movie.

You mean the obvious threat of Luthor stealing the Kryptonite, blowing up the Senat and keeping tabs on metahumans? My bad, you're right, he should have gone after the guy in the cape who keeps flying around and saving people.

Sorry, but the character "they created for this movie" isn't Batman. Batman, in almost every iteration in media has never been portrayed as this outright murderous, non-logical, lunatic.

Even Burton's Batman wasn't this bad.

 

[Poni_Boy]

the movie has some parts that is relying on the audience's knowledge of other versions of the character, and some parts that gives you a new take on characters so i can see that contradiction does not sit well with some audience.

Exactly this. It's just bad filmmaking when you're telling a new/original story.

 

[Predator jp]

Everyone criticizing it is completely ignoring all of the above, and only focusing on/obsessing over the SECONDARY purpose of the scene, acting like that was the ONLY purpose of it.

i thought everyone was talking about the video clips about Cyborg or Aquaman and all that stuff. no?

 

[Poni_Boy]

Batman's had 8 films since '89, he's had cartoons all to himself, shared cartoons, 3D animation, comics, critically acclaimed game series etc and Alfred's been in every single one. Just the talk generated from all that content, not to mention all the youtube channels, jokes, memes and what-have-you-nots on the internet is enough to get word around on who this Alfred character is. In a sense, he is part of our pop culture scene, even though he got weaseled in because of Batman. It's not BvS' job to cater to people who are this uninformed, or are unable to make a simple deduction based on dialogue in a film. Even Marvel movies occasionally throw in new characters without needing to read their entire profiles to its audiences. If people are interested, they will do their homework. That's the movie industry of the 21st century.

Again, so you need to have a preexisting familiarity of the character to know his place in this movie. "Do your homework before you go see this movie" is a really silly excuse to explain bad storytelling.

 

[Flint Marko]

From the majority of the complaints I've read on here, that's exactly the case.

Now, if there were more legit complaints that didn't come from someone missing a part of the movie, I'm all ears. Just haven't seen many.

nah thats totally her fault
all the info you need on Alfred is in the movie, as I stated
you cited the fact that somewhere (not in the movie) it was reveled he was a retired British Spy. Okay thats great, but thats not information needed in the movie whatsoever to understand his character. Like I said its all there.

Just like the "lack of motivations" for Lex. Literally all right in the movie

Same with the "The Senate Bomb didn't make sense because the newscaster even revealed it was a bomb was in the wheelchair" - again they literally explained that the reason that Superman got the blame was because they assumed he mustve known the bomb was there but did nothing about it.

All these "plot holes" and "non-sensical" storytelling doesn't come from it being poorly written. It comes from people just not paying any attention at all.

Completely disagreed. This movie is poorly written. I'm so completely sick of people blaming the audience for not understanding what the film makers were trying to convey. That's on them for making a muddled, ineffective story. Note that Nolan never had this issue, and all three of his Batman movies were more thematically complex and character-driven than BvS.

 

[Wylie Times]

Oh brother. Why does it not make sense that finding alien artifacts that harm aliens can't be done without figuring out or even caring who the alien's Earth mother is? C'mon.

Because it's BATMAN.

Prep god, study the justice league to find their weaknesses, create a satellite to spy on people, always has a plan for everything BATMAN.

He gave a whole speech in the movie about how if Superman even posed the slightest threat to humanity that he needed to be taken out. I'm supposed to believe he's concerned about Superman destroying humanity but he didn't even bother to look into his background, find out where he lived, who he might be friends with, his civilian name? If Batman viewed Superman as serious threat to humanity those are all things that would help him in his "war" against Superman.

Lex knew well enough to find out who Superman really was and his background information.

There's no logical reason that the worlds greatest detective or anybody that was going to wage a war against ANYONE wouldn't gather extensive intel on that person.

 

[Aquafinn90]

You mean the obvious threat of Luthor stealing the Kryptonite, blowing up the Senat and keeping tabs on metahumans? My bad, you're right, he should have gone after the guy in the cape who keeps flying around and saving people.

Sorry, but the character "they created for this movie" isn't Batman. Batman, in almost every iteration in media has never been portrayed as this outright murderous, non-logical, lunatic.

Even Burton's Batman wasn't this bad.

Yes he stole Kryptonite but from Bruce's perspective how does that make him a "huge threat"- Bruce was stealing it FROM him as well.

And forgive me if I missed something here, but how would Bruce have known that it was Lex that blew up the Senate? As for keeping tabs on the metahumans, Bruce is doing the very same with Superman. So how on earth is that an issue?