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BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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You guys have to understand, even if WB WANTED to get rid of Snyder at the last minute, they cannot. Could you IMAGINE what a PR NIGHTMARE it would be? Sure, fans on the internet would be happy Snyder's gone but by and large getting rid of him at the last minute, just when theyre about to film, after he's been heavily promoting the film everywhere, with the cast and crew already assembled and standing behins Snyder, it would be a complete utter disaster and more importantly it makes EVERYONE look bad. Everyone. Justice League would be tainted.

They need to show confidence and move forward. Except this time, they get someone to watch over Snyder, that's all.

true. let's hope they have people who actually understand and love the comics keeping snyder in check.

nolan had goyer and his bro jonathan to keep him in check because nolan did not really know the comics.

snyder seems to not have had that balance when filming bvs.
someone to go "hey superman or batman would not do this or that..."
 
Alright, but usually a film this big we'd have some kind of movement. It makes sense not to reveal anything right now because the film is still in theaters. Are we really sure if he'll keep going? Because if that's the case, I'm out. I'll just subscribe to this thread and hope something will come up soon and he will end up not directing it. It's so beyond anything I can fathom with these two characters and their worlds that I just need Snyder to stay out of this to go back. And if Warner hasn't realized yet, things are quite bad. I'm hardly the only one feeling the same. All I can do now is hope, because I'm not here to say how bad I think this is, all that it needed to be said was said already. Just hope Warner won't move on with him and wait for more details. I just can't believe they will keep him.

the dicksplashes who head WB are more of a problem than snyder is.
get rid of snyder you still don't get rid of the source of the problem.
 
My point is, if Snyder is out, we wouldn't know now. And I think we won't know until at least two weeks, when the film drops to the point they don't even care hiding anymore. Not confident that anything regarding Justice League is happening next week. And hopefully I'm right.
 
*Sigh* Are we going to get in an argument as to what a plot hole is? This was clearly a plot hole his able to locate one individual at all times of distress but yet cannot locate another individual in times of need. This whole his always keeping an eye on Lois at all times was made up by defenders of this movie and holds no weight.

There was literally a line in the movie by the film's villain that said the fastest way to Superman is through Lois and he then pushes Lois off a high rise to get Superman to him. You clearly need to watch the movie again.

He was unable to move due to the effect of kryptonite and two minutes later he was flying and able to pierce Doomsday that my friend is a plot hole.

That's not a plot hole, that shows how fast he was able to recover. He got nuked in space and recovered in the same time. The only time it lasted longer was when he inhaled it. You clearly need to watch the movie again.


Nope wasn't lost on me, it was jus an illogical reason as to him changing his mind and him trusting this being he spent the entire movie hating. Your mums name is Martha my mother was Martha I trust you. Now this part can be argued to be poor writing and execution.

What's illogical about it? The movie shows over and over again that Batman's loss of his mother was devastating to him. The Wayne murder concentrated on Martha as her eyes closed. Bruce had a dream when his rage busted through his mother's crypt in the form of a giant bat. Batman had demonized Superman as an alien with no connection to Earth. When he learns that he too has a mother and his mother even shares his mother's name, he has the epiphany that Superman is a man because of his love for Martha and Lois. He's not some unattached alien. He has true feelings. Batman was about to kill this man because of his own feelings of powerlessness that manifested itself in the form of rage. He snapped back to reality. You clearly need to watch the movie again.

It's a plot hole he considered Superman an all Poweful God and was willing to put him down and yet unleashes something even more powerul on the world. You have inserted your assumptions and theory into the story clearly highlighting what a poor job the movie did on telling a cohesive and structured story.

How have I asserted any assumptions? Everything I said is right there in the movie. His A and B plan failed. He started plan C. Again, as I just explained in the post you quoted but clearly didn't read, he thought he could control what he created which is why he stood there while Doomsday was about to punch him until Superman blocks the punch. You clearly need to watch the movie again.

Ok here we go

Batman decides to risk his life to lure Doomsday back to Gotham but we have seen Alfred can manually drive the batwing so why not let Alfred do it while he goes hunting for the spear.

The Batwing was crashed. You clearly need to watch the movie again.

Lex Luthor is bargaining regarding importing kryptonite into the country, the US army would have been all over it ASAP.

Not sure I follow what you are saying. Are you saying the US Army does port security and would know that Luthor was bringing in something illegally? A. That's not what the Army does. B. It's not very hard to smuggle something into the US. Still not real sure what you are getting at here.


Batman hits the truck with the kryptonite with a tracker and still goes on a rampage killing people. When he could have simply placed the tracker and left it at that because he now knew the destination of said item. Trust me a lot of things in this movie don't make sense this is not an overreaction.

Batman put a tracking device on the truck in case he couldn't get the Kryptonite and it got away which is exactly what happened. He later traced the container and made another successful effort on retrieving it.

And one more thing for you so you can use the term correctly:

In fiction, a plot hole,plothole or plot error is a logical inconsistency within a story. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
 
true. let's hope they have people who actually understand and love the comics keeping snyder in check.

nolan had goyer and his bro jonathan to keep him in check because nolan did not really know the comics.

snyder seems to not have had that balance when filming bvs.
someone to go "hey superman or batman would not do this or that..."

But isn't it too late if Snyder is going to start filming based on the script thats already written. Even if there is someone i don't think JL movie we will get will be a unifying movie, at best it will be Man of steel level.
 
Batman put a tracking device on the truck in case he couldn't get the Kryptonite and it got away which is exactly what happened. He later traced the container and made another successful effort on retrieving it.

And one more thing for you so you can use the term correctly:

In fiction, a plot hole,plothole or plot error is a logical inconsistency within a story. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.


my biggest beef with this part is batman probably fatally or close to fatally injured those security guards at lexcorp when he successfully stole the kryptonite.
that just is not who batman is.
 
the dicksplashes who head WB are more of a problem than snyder is.
get rid of snyder you still don't get rid of the source of the problem.

Yea, if WB execs were really shocked with the reaction this movie got then they are clueless about the properties they try to manage.
 
Yea, if WB execs were really shocked with the reaction this movie got then they are clueless about the properties they try to manage.

I don't believe they were. The rumors were going for a long time that the film had problems, we could tell that from the Doomsday trailer and how they backtracked on that marketing strategy later. I guess all we can do now is wait.
 
I'm still trying to find out why assumptions, inferences and leaps of logic are perfectly acceptable with the Marvel films but not acceptable when attempting to address criticism of Batman V Superman.
 
‘Batman v Superman’: Where’s the Superhero Suit at Warner Bros?

http://variety.com/2016/film/opinion/batman-v-superman-warner-bros-superhero-suit-1201749164/

When I finally caved for a second viewing of Zack Snyder’s “Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice,” I spotted only six or seven other people in the theater. Even following a dramatic 69% second weekend drop, I couldn’t believe my eyes.

This is “Batman v Superman,” a blockbuster event meant to jump start an entire cinematic universe, yet in its 13th day of release, the superhero pic only mustered $2.8 million, a number that couldn’t even match Marvel’s “Ant-Man” ($3 million), Snyder’s previous foray “Man of Steel” ($4 million) or even Tim Burton’s 1989 introduction to “Batman” ($4.36 million). It was a heavily front-loaded release, to be sure: a $166 million opening was a rallying cry for proponents in the face of countless critical pans. But at this point, hitting the magic $1 billion figure in worldwide grosses seems to be out of reach.

If all the recent release date shuffling and rumored restructuring of the Warner Bros. status quo didn’t make it clear, those numbers certainly should: They’re close to hitting the panic button in Burbank this week.

Reports suggest an ongoing culture shift at the studio, with fewer original titles being greenlit as WB doubles down on franchise generators like DC Comics, Lego and Harry Potter. Certainly there’s a fever, what with Disney printing money from the “Star Wars” and Marvel hit parade. But the hot seat is getting hotter, as this is the year Warner chairman and CEO Kevin Tsujihara’s chickens come home to roost.

Tsujihara got the gig in January of 2013 and immediately, plans were set in motion to catch up with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Snyder took the reins on a “Man of Steel” follow-up, announced at Comic-Con that year as an apparent take on the 1986 Frank Miller classic “The Dark Knight Returns.” On stage at the San Diego Convention Center, the director brought out “Man of Steel” star Harry Lennix to read a passage from the Miller story, the lights dimmed and the familiar Batman/Superman logo hit the screen, sending 6,000 screaming fans into ecstasy.

Affleck was cast in August that year, and soon enough, he brought on Oscar-winning “Argo” scribe Chris Terrio to help turn the project into a thoughtful exploration of the comic book ethos. That was going to be crucial, given that Snyder is obsessed with iconography, a visualist more than a storyteller. Inevitably, though, the film became more of a corporate vision. It was given an utterly ridiculous title that bent over backwards to cram in three keywords — Batman, Superman and Justice (League) — and mandates were put forth to lay the groundwork. But underneath the promotional noise, a real attempt was being made to dabble in DC’s philosophical bedrock and deconstruct the tendencies of comic book cinema.

“In the way that ‘Deadpool’ took the piss out of the genre, and therefore was post-modern in the way it said, ‘Look at the conventions of this,’ this was a minor key version of that,” a source told me.

Nevertheless, we’re left with a movie in which a central character literally sits down to watch trailers for three other movies. “Batman v Superman” is bursting at the seams, desperate to make up the ground DC has lost to Marvel over the past seven years. You can almost picture the boardroom meeting: “We need our Avengers now.”

Ironically, the studio’s franchise potential was stalled by the very filmmaker who ignited interest in this new era of comic book movies over a decade ago: Christopher Nolan. Nolan was adamant for years that his Batman not exist in any shared universe with other characters from the DC canon. “It was like, ‘Thank you very much, we’ll take it from here,'” a source says. “He would just do it, and deliver.”

Indeed, Nolan’s “Dark Knight” franchise churned out roughly $2.5 billion in worldwide box office receipts. No one was complaining. But having a key character be hijacked for so long tied WB’s hands when it came to the fast-approaching new paradigm. “The Dark Knight” hit theaters in 2008, the same year as “Iron Man” (which kicked off Marvel’s trajectory). It would be three more years before Nolan would finally conclude his trilogy.

In truth, the studio had a 40-year head start on Marvel. DC has been under the Warner banner ever since being folded into Warner Communications way back in 1969 (when it was still known as National Periodical Publications). Nobody quite saw this brave new world of grossly conglomerated media coming, but with a stronger vision, Warners could have been way out ahead of the game.

And that’s what seems to be missing: overriding vision. Warner Bros. strives to be a filmmaker-friendly studio that would like to make an artist-centered model work, and at least conceptually, that’s commendable. But when you’re dealing with something as ungainly as an entire comic book universe, a certain amount of oversight — artistically invested, not corporate — feels only necessary. So the big problem, as far as I see it, remains this lack of a central node, someone akin to Marvel’s Kevin Feige who is intimately attuned to the source material, drawing the various strings together.

For a period, WB was keen on Geoff Johns for such a role. But that’s a tall order for DC’s Chief Creative Officer, who is already stretched very thin. While he is currently writing the upcoming stand-alone Batman film with Ben Affleck, he also wears a number of other hats. “Geoff is really smart, but he’s got like 10 different jobs,” a source says. “He’s writing comic books, controlling DC, writes on [TV’s] ‘The Flash’ — I would imagine Feige’s is a full-time job just managing this stuff. So I don’t know how you ask Geoff, in the best of both worlds, to do that.”

Snyder, therefore, has been making the bulk of the creative decisions. And he has provided the fans with a lot of the imagery they want to see, from a vibrant vision of Superman’s home world borrowed from John Byrne’s “The World of Krypton” to the iconic cover of Miller’s “Dark Knight Returns” No. 1 (blink and you miss it). The new film even manages to pack in moments from story arcs such as “The Death of Superman” and “Funeral for a Friend.” But as skilled as Snyder is at capturing a striking frame, he just isn’t the guy to pull all of this narrative complexity together.

I’m told production exec Jon Berg and and Time-Warner CEO Jeff Bewkes are taking more of a hands-on approach now, paying closer attention to overarching story concerns, but someone well-versed in both production and DC’s minutiae is what’s needed. Greg Silverman, head of film production at WB, may have too much on his plate, same with DC Entertainment boss Diane Nelson, who also oversees their core publishing business. Meanwhile, the competition has production company Marvel Studios — with a creative driving force at the top — and DC, surprisingly, doesn’t have an analog.

As for “Batman v Superman,” those involved weren’t prepared for the critical knives the film received, but they always knew it was going to be a transitional film, bridging the gap between “Man of Steel” (which was produced with no plan in place to expand the universe) and anything approaching the Avengers/Super Friends mold. But I’m told “Justice League” will be a crowdpleaser more suited to Snyder’s talents, and that the upcoming two-part event is “extremely kinetic and visual.” It will be far more straightforward than existential in its handling of superheroes.

So maybe the bounce-back will be considerable when it finally hits screens in November of next year. Either way, with production scheduled to start next week in London, the pressure is officially on.

They sound totally and completely lost
 
That article was basically them hoping third times the charm. I also like how they try to blame nolan for their current problems.
 
my biggest beef with this part is batman probably fatally or close to fatally injured those security guards at lexcorp when he successfully stole the kryptonite.
that just is not who batman is.

Most people seem to have big issues with the Man of Murder and BatMurder. I don't which is why I likely like the movie more than most. I love what's been done with Superman. We've seen the happy save a cat from the three supes in 5 other movies. I like seeing the more conflicted Superman in this movie. Everyone for years claimed that Superman is boring and unrelatable. I thought Snyder and Goyer have done a good job of making him more endearing and relatable.

As for Batman, I don't know what happened at Lex's research facility. Lots of bullets that's for sure. How realisitic is it to have a man get shot point blank in the back of the head (that guy that did that lived btw) or have the batmobile get riddled in bullets and a damn SAM missile strike not to fight back lethally? That just seems odd to me. I'm not going to argue over Batman killing. He clearly did. That bothered a lot of people and I'm sorry for them. Didn't bother me.
 

They sound totally and completely lost

Indeed. I think it would be wise to drop this connected universe and just focus on sequels to any and all successful DC films moving forward.
 
my biggest beef with this part is batman probably fatally or close to fatally injured those security guards at lexcorp when he successfully stole the kryptonite.
that just is not who batman is.
The movie makes a point that Batman has become cruel, lashing out more than ever, straying from a path. Upping his game in a way in reaction to Superman. Trying to compensate. I'm sure he'll go back to the 'Batman we know' in subsequent appearances. But truthfully, his tactics here didn't bother me. I think it plays having a darker Batman in a film like this, really putting him on Superman's radar.
 
Reports suggest an ongoing culture shift at the studio, with fewer original titles being greenlit as WB doubles down on franchise generators like DC Comics,

Jesus Christ.
 
The dark side of superhearing...

[YT]ZAX-y018pcY[/YT]
 
Most people seem to have big issues with the Man of Murder and BatMurder. I don't which is why I likely like the movie more than most. I love what's been done with Superman. We've seen the happy save a cat from the three supes in 5 other movies. I like seeing the more conflicted Superman in this movie. Everyone for years claimed that Superman is boring and unrelatable. I thought Snyder and Goyer have done a good job of making him more endearing and relatable.

As for Batman, I don't know what happened at Lex's research facility. Lots of bullets that's for sure. How realisitic is it to have a man get shot point blank in the back of the head (that guy that did that lived btw) or have the batmobile get riddled in bullets and a damn SAM missile strike not to fight back lethally? That just seems odd to me. I'm not going to argue over Batman killing. He clearly did. That bothered a lot of people and I'm sorry for them. Didn't bother me.

it doesn't bother me when batman kills criminals...
what bothered me was he probably killed some regular security guards just doing their job in that scene. the attack isn't shown but you see the aftermath. and you see cpr being applied on a security guard.

that's not a hero, that's not even a vigilante. that's just a thug imo.
 
‘Batman v Superman’: Where’s the Superhero Suit at Warner Bros?

http://variety.com/2016/film/opinion/batman-v-superman-warner-bros-superhero-suit-1201749164/



They sound totally and completely lost

Maybe if BvS tanks hard enough this weekend they'll stop? I don't know, I can't see how they can reasonably keep going with the plans they have right now. I won't believe Justice League is starting to film anything before I see a press release, still or something. And I hope I won't.
 
Indeed. I think it would be wise to drop this connected universe and just focus on sequels to any and all successful DC films moving forward.

Me thinks the WB suits need to be sat down and explained how quickly, efficiently and financially responsible Marvel Studios was created:

By 2005, Marvel Entertainment began planning to independently produce its own films and distribute them through Paramount Pictures.[2] Previously, Marvel had co-produced several superhero films with Columbia Pictures, New Line Cinema and others, including a seven-year development deal with 20th Century Fox.[3] Marvel made relatively little profit from its licensing deals with other studios and wanted to get more money out of its films while maintaining artistic control of the projects and distribution.[4] Avi Arad, head of Marvel's film division, was pleased with Sam Raimi's Spider-Man films at Columbia, but was less pleased about others. As a result, they decided to form Marvel Studios, Hollywood's first major independent movie studio since DreamWorks.[5]

Arad's second-in-command,[5] Kevin Feige, realized that unlike Spider-Man and the X-Men, whose film rights were licensed to Columbia and Fox respectively, Marvel still owned the rights to the core members of The Avengers. Feige, a self-professed fanboy, envisioned creating a shared universe just as creators Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had done with their comic books in the early 1960s.[6] To raise capital, the studio secured funding from a seven-year, $525 million revolving credit facility with Merrill Lynch.[4] Marvel's plan was to release individual films for their main characters and then merge them together in a crossover film.[7] Arad, who doubted the strategy yet insisted that it was his reputation that helped secure the initial financing, resigned the following year.[5][8]

In 2007, at 33 years old, Feige was named studio chief. In order to preserve its artistic integrity, Marvel Studios formed a six-person creative committee with people familiar with its comic book lore that included Feige, Marvel Studios co-president Louis D'Esposito, Marvel Comics' president of publishing Dan Buckley, Marvel's chief creative officer Joe Quesada, writer Brian Michael Bendis, and Marvel Entertainment president Alan Fine, who oversaw the committee.[5] [/B]

Look where they got in a decade. Ten years. Not long at all.
 
It is interesting that WB can't seem to find anyone to be steward of the whole universe, Geoff johns plate is too full and they seem lost.
 
I've been saying it - WB lacks leadership for it's DC films. Snyder is de facto in charge and that's the problem. If they want to be like Marvel they have to start acting like Marvel.
 
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it doesn't bother me when batman kills criminals...
what bothered me was he probably killed some regular security guards just doing their job in that scene. the attack isn't shown but you see the aftermath. and you see cpr being applied on a security guard.

that's not a hero, that's not even a vigilante. that's just a thug imo.

I hear you. End justifies the means was Batfleck's motto. Good thing Superman saved his soul. :cwink:
 
It will be a terrible shame if the studio philosophy shifts from original content to franchises though. WB has always been a very film maker friendly studios and more willing to take risks with things like Inception and Gravity. For them to concentrate more on big name properties is a shift that isn't good in the long run. No matter how big of a DC fan one is them doing that isn't good news for films in general.
 
Me thinks the WB suits need to be sat down and explained how quickly, efficiently and financially responsible Marvel Studios was created:

By 2005, Marvel Entertainment began planning to independently produce its own films and distribute them through Paramount Pictures.[2] Previously, Marvel had co-produced several superhero films with Columbia Pictures, New Line Cinema and others, including a seven-year development deal with 20th Century Fox.[3] Marvel made relatively little profit from its licensing deals with other studios and wanted to get more money out of its films while maintaining artistic control of the projects and distribution.[4] Avi Arad, head of Marvel's film division, was pleased with Sam Raimi's Spider-Man films at Columbia, but was less pleased about others. As a result, they decided to form Marvel Studios, Hollywood's first major independent movie studio since DreamWorks.[5]

Arad's second-in-command,[5] Kevin Feige, realized that unlike Spider-Man and the X-Men, whose film rights were licensed to Columbia and Fox respectively, Marvel still owned the rights to the core members of The Avengers. Feige, a self-professed fanboy, envisioned creating a shared universe just as creators Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had done with their comic books in the early 1960s.[6] To raise capital, the studio secured funding from a seven-year, $525 million revolving credit facility with Merrill Lynch.[4] Marvel's plan was to release individual films for their main characters and then merge them together in a crossover film.[7] Arad, who doubted the strategy yet insisted that it was his reputation that helped secure the initial financing, resigned the following year.[5][8]

In 2007, at 33 years old, Feige was named studio chief. In order to preserve its artistic integrity, Marvel Studios formed a six-person creative committee with people familiar with its comic book lore that included Feige, Marvel Studios co-president Louis D'Esposito, Marvel Comics' president of publishing Dan Buckley, Marvel's chief creative officer Joe Quesada, writer Brian Michael Bendis, and Marvel Entertainment president Alan Fine, who oversaw the committee.[5] [/B]

Look where they got in a decade. Ten years. Not long at all.

yup yup. respect for those wise enough to earn it.
this is why they win and wb is just shooting in the dark.
 
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