BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 295

[Poni_Boy]

It's different for Marvel because they don't have to deal with this multiple iterations with their major characters, at least not to the extent of DC.

DC sort of reveled in the whole iterations thing, embracing it fully (at times) and then rejecting it completely at others (COIE aftermath for instance).

As for Marvel fans happy...I dunno, I have seen a lot of folks complaining on how their movies are going in different direction and even forcing the comics to follow the same direction.

Marvel has PLENTY of Elseworlds styled What If? stories and a crazy amount of universes. Marvel and DC Comics are quite literally parallels of each other. That's just an excuse and it has nothing to do with the question about the movies. If Marvel could make cinematic interpretations of their characters that the vast majority of Marvel fans are happy with then DC can do they same. They just need a Kevin Feige type who gives a **** enough to make it happen.

 

[Light]

Well, we got him dying, so we're halfway there! That's the important stuff, right?

He never died in All Star.

 

[Verick808]

I dunno. I'd say the vast majority of Marvel fans are pretty damn happy with what they've gotten so far. DC should strive for the same.

Meh, I'm only happy with Cap to be honest. Hopefully Dr. Strange will be good as well.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Well, we got him dying, so we're halfway there! That's the important stuff, right?

Personally I can't wait to see Zack Snyder's superhero adaptation of The Ressurection of Christ. Anyone want to bet Superman is "dead" for 3 days too?

 

[TripleJ]

I think there is a clear consensus about wanting a Superman people actually care about. A more optimistic, less contemplative character that is warm and charming.

And how you know that they aren't going there?

My theory is that they are building upto it; There was development in Superman, between MOS and BvS (I know a few folks disagree with me on that, but that's fine).

You see a cynical world, a broken Batman and a weary WW. Batman's had a spiritual reawakening by the end of the movie, and he's about to find the others. It's the dawn of Justice, after the hell each one of them has been through.

You aren't going to get All Star Superman here. That's never going to happen in any cinematic iterations, because well..it sort of makes all other character pointless (by elevating Superman to Supergod status).

I like that story by the way, but I prefer not to see that version in a universe with other DC heroes.

Of course, you could argue that they aren't...and I am just theorizing (and that's true. There isn't any evidence to support either side completely).

We will just have to wait and see.

 

[agomezv3]

I loved that movie. I *hate* the way it's being treated. Do you know why I love BvS and MoS and regard them as amazing movies? I go to the teather without expectations and without mental images of what these characters should be. This is a different incarnation, I think people should just relax and not hope it to be Richard Donner's Superman and Nolan's Batman. I like this approach, and it's very interesting. I think people just want to see 'the iconic Justice League' and 'the iconic Batman V Superman movie', but that's just wishful thinking, you know? I'd really like if people would de-attach for a moment about their own vision and see the movies as what they are. Hope I don't get burned for this, just my perspective on things. Oh, and also the perspective I personally think WB with Zack are taking, it just makes sense.

 

[-Arya-]

And how you know that they aren't going there?

My theory is that they are building upto it; There was development in Superman, between MOS and BvS (I know a few folks disagree with me on that, but that's fine).

You see a cynical world, a broken Batman and a weary WW. Batman's had a spiritual reawakening by the end of the movie, and he's about to find the others. It's the dawn of Justice, after the hell each one of them has been through.

You aren't going to get All Star Superman here. That's never going to happen in any cinematic iterations, because well..it sort of makes all other character pointless (by elevating Superman to Supergod status).

I like that story by the way, but I prefer not to see that version in a universe with other DC heroes.

Of course, you could argue that they aren't...and I am just theorizing (and that's true. There isn't any evidence to support either side completely).

We will just have to wait and see.

The problem is it shouldn't take 3 or 4 movies to get to that point. By then, people (especially the general audience) probably will not care enough to even go see the movie.

 

[Light]

And how you know that they aren't going there?

My theory is that they are building upto it; There was development in Superman, between MOS and BvS (I know a few folks disagree with me on that, but that's fine).

You see a cynical world, a broken Batman and a weary WW. Batman's had a spiritual reawakening by the end of the movie, and he's about to find the others. It's the dawn of Justice, after the hell each one of them has been through.

You aren't going to get All Star Superman here. That's never going to happen in any cinematic iterations, because well..it sort of makes all other character pointless (by elevating Superman to Supergod status).

I like that story by the way, but I prefer not to see that version in a universe with other DC heroes.

Of course, you could argue that they aren't...and I am just theorizing (and that's true. There isn't any evidence to support either side completely).

We will just have to wait and see.

Two films in even if they introduced that Superman it's to late as it would differ greatly from who he has been shown to be. This Superman is 35yrs old and hasn't exhibited his usual persona a complete 360 now will come across as strange.

 

[Poni_Boy]

I loved that movie. I *hate* the way it's being treated. Do you know why I love BvS and MoS and regard them as amazing movies? I go to the teather without expectations and without mental images of what these characters should be. This is a different incarnation, I think people should just relax and not hope it to be Richard Donner's Superman and Nolan's Batman. I like this approach, and it's very interesting. I think people just want to see 'the iconic Justice League' and 'the iconic Batman V Superman movie', but that's just wishful thinking, you know? I'd really like if people would de-attach for a moment about their own vision and see the movies as what they are. Hope I don't get burned for this, just my perspective on things. Oh, and also the perspective I personally think WB with Zack are taking, it just makes sense.

Then WB and Zack should use original characters. Comparisons will be made. Always have been with adaptations. Why should BvS be immune from what happens with every other cinematic, televised, theatrical and literary adaptation?

 

[Poni_Boy]

The problem is it shouldn't take 3 or 4 movies to get to that point. By then, people (especially the general audience) probably will not care enough to even go see the movie.

Bingo. It's like stretching an origin story out across four movies. That's just bad storytelling

 

[TripleJ]

Marvel has PLENTY of Elseworlds styled What If? stories and a crazy amount of universes. Marvel and DC Comics are quite literally parallels of each other. That's just an excuse and it has nothing to do with the question about the movies. If Marvel could make cinematic interpretations of their characters that the vast majority of Marvel fans are happy with then DC can do they same. They just need a Kevin Feige type who gives a **** enough to make it happen.

Sure, they do. But, it's not as big (or best, in terms of quality) as DC's. Many of DC's best stories are Elseworlds (and you have quite a lot of people as fans of those interpretations).

CBR boards would disagree with you t: You would see far more disagreement among DC fans than Marvel fans.

They can't agree on comics..what makes you think they will in movies? Not even Kevin Feige can fix that.

Just take a look at New 52. You have plenty of fans who love New 52, and the many who hate/despise it with all their passion. Who's right there?

 

[Pittman4Two]

Then WB and Zack should use original characters. Comparisons will be made. Always have been with adaptations. Why should BvS be immune from what happens with every other cinematic, televised, theatrical and literary adaptation?

I think he's just saying he enjoyed his movie-going experience viewing BvS. Sounds pretty much the same way I feel.

Is there a Batman or a Superman comic that everyone references as the "perfect iteration" of the character? I guarantee you that there is not.

Opinions are great.

 

[flickchick85]

I loved that movie. I *hate* the way it's being treated. Do you know why I love BvS and MoS and regard them as amazing movies? I go to the teather without expectations and without mental images of what these characters should be. This is a different incarnation, I think people should just relax and not hope it to be Richard Donner's Superman and Nolan's Batman. I like this approach, and it's very interesting. I think people just want to see 'the iconic Justice League' and 'the iconic Batman V Superman movie', but that's just wishful thinking, you know? I'd really like if people would de-attach for a moment about their own vision and see the movies as what they are. Hope I don't get burned for this, just my perspective on things. Oh, and also the perspective I personally think WB with Zack are taking, it just makes sense.

I'm glad you are happy with the versions they gave us. Truly.

That said, the problem with asking people to detach from their expectations for the characters is that these are iconic, beloved characters. People usually have REASONS for loving the characters they do, and if those reasons are not reflected in the adaptation on screen, then of course they won't be happy with it.

 

[Verick808]

The problem is it shouldn't take 3 or 4 movies to get to that point. By then, people (especially the general audience) probably will not care enough to even go see the movie.

I'd say the general audience is more likely to be patient as they are the most likely not to mind if he doesn't fit a certain image. They aren't die hard fans.

 

[TripleJ]

The problem is it shouldn't take 3 or 4 movies to get to that point. By then, people (especially the general audience) probably will not care enough to even go see the movie.

Why not?

There have been many coming of age type stories where the hero grew over several movies.

Some of you just want to see the fully developed Superman (I can understand that by the way, DC also did it with New 52 by skipping 5 years ahead).

I believe this is far more interesting than starting with a fully developed Superman. You have an experienced Wonder Woman and Batman, going with an inexperienced Clark, younger Barry and Vic, and Arthur (don't know much about him yet)/

Two films in even if they introduced that Superman it's to late as it would differ greatly from who he has been shown to be. This Superman is 35yrs old and hasn't exhibited his usual persona a complete 360 now will come across as strange.

Of course, you aren't going to get All Star Superman....but you will get a more hopeful one (I certainly believe it).

We will have to wait and see how it goes.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Sure, they do. But, it's not as big (or best, in terms of quality) as DC's. Many of DC's best stories are Elseworlds (and you have quite a lot of people as fans of those interpretations).

CBR boards would disagree with you t: You would see far more disagreement among DC fans than Marvel fans.

They can't agree on comics..what makes you think they will in movies? Not even Kevin Feige can fix that.

Just take a look at New 52. You have plenty of fans who love New 52, and the many who hate/despise it with all their passion. Who's right there?

I think you're assuming my use of the word "fan" is isolated to message board posters or comic book readers. My niece was a Superman fan when she was 7. People who buy Batman tshirts and only watch the movies are fans too. There's no obsessive barometer to make you a "fan" you just simply have to like the character and be attracted to things featuring him/her. If they gave Superman an all black suit and a mullet do you think general Superman fans would be ok with it even though a very small portion would scream BUT IT IS COMIC BOOK ACCURATE!? What about a blue and white suit and lightning bold powers? What about FOUR Supermen all at once?

Again, the vast majority of fans don't give a fig about comic book accuracy as long as these movies get character accuracy right. That's where this Superman has failed. And if they do the same thing with the other JL members they get the poor box office they deserve.

 

[Poni_Boy]

I'm glad you are happy with the versions they gave us. Truly.

That said, the problem with asking people to detach from their expectations for the characters is that these are iconic, beloved characters. People usually have REASONS for loving the characters they do, and if those reasons are not reflected in the adaptation on screen, then of course they won't be happy with it.

Bingo. For example a friend of mine who saw BvS said it was great. I asked him why and he said 'Supeman was a badass I love watching him fight.' I asked what he thought of the other aspects of the character and he said he doesn't give a **** he just wants to see him "rage." And I doubt he's the only Superman fan who feels that way.

 

[Predator jp]

We hope we haven't lost you as our valuable client. #LexCorp
Something big is coming. Our newest project will be fully functioning by 2017. Thank you for standing by our side. #timeforchange

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDyTnLjghwI/

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BDyTnLjghwI/

Is that from LexCorp or from WB?

 

[TripleJ]

I think you're assuming my use of the word "fan" is isolated to message board posters or comic book readers. My niece was a Superman fan when she was 7. People who buy Batman tshirts and only watch the movies are fans too. There's no obsessive barometer to make you a "fan" you just simply have to like the character and be attracted to things featuring him/her. If they gave Superman an all black suit and a mullet do you think general Superman fans would be ok with it even though a very small portion would scream BUT IT IS COMIC BOOK ACCURATE!? What about a blue and white suit and lightning bold powers? What about FOUR Supermen all at once?

Again, the vast majority of fans don't give a fig about comic book accuracy as long as these movies get character accuracy right. That's where this Superman has failed. And if they do the same thing with the other JL members they get the poor box office they deserve.

Here's the problem: Who decides which iteration is accurate? And which iteration is accurate for that matter?

You have fans of Bruce Timm's Superman, fans of multiple versions of Superman in comics, fans of Reeve's Superman etc etc.

Sure, many of them share certain elements, but none of them are the same...you can argue all about a particular version being definitive, but that doesn't make it so (since there would be fans disagree with that through).

And you are right - Majority of fans don't give a damn about Comic book accuracy.

And majority of GA doesn't have any preconceived notions regarding these characters, they are far more open, than say die hard fans or casual fans (or they don't give a damn about seeing Reeve's Superman or Timm's Superman etc).

BvS and MOS failed (or continues to fail) to make lots of money, not because they got the character versions "wrong".

Critical reception is also a big factor (on BvS particularly, with the drops). If BvS had a tighter story/narrative, I don't think the versions themselves would matter that much (or affect the critical reviews that much).

(Or maybe I am wrong. I have seen enough MOS reviews where people say it's not Superman because he doesn't change in a phone booth or whatever).

 

[Logan0327]

Personally I can't wait to see Zack Snyder's superhero adaptation of The Ressurection of Christ. Anyone want to bet Superman is "dead" for 3 days too?

 

[king666]

Personally I can't wait to see Zack Snyder's superhero adaptation of The Ressurection of Christ. Anyone want to bet Superman is "dead" for 3 days too?

That'd be terrible, but they'll probably do it.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

They'd really benefit from using All Star as the template for Superman.

Doomsday Jimmy is not my thing.
That is one bit from the comic that needs to stay far FAR away from any adaption.

 

[TripleJ]

I think you're assuming my use of the word "fan" is isolated to message board posters or comic book readers. My niece was a Superman fan when she was 7. People who buy Batman tshirts and only watch the movies are fans too. There's no obsessive barometer to make you a "fan" you just simply have to like the character and be attracted to things featuring him/her. If they gave Superman an all black suit and a mullet do you think general Superman fans would be ok with it even though a very small portion would scream BUT IT IS COMIC BOOK ACCURATE!? What about a blue and white suit and lightning bold powers? What about FOUR Supermen all at once?

Again, the vast majority of fans don't give a fig about comic book accuracy as long as these movies get character accuracy right. That's where this Superman has failed. And if they do the same thing with the other JL members they get the poor box office they deserve.

Oh, by the way, if we start to expand on that -

Avengers were never as popular or as iconic as Superman or Batman. They are popular now, sure...but, fans (casuals) don't have much to compare by'

 

[Poni_Boy]

Here's the problem: Who decides which iteration is accurate? And which iteration is accurate for that matter?

You have fans of Bruce Timm's Superman, fans of multiple versions of Superman in comics, fans of Reeve's Superman etc etc.

Sure, many of them share certain elements, but none of them are the same...you can argue all about a particular version being definitive, but that doesn't make it so (since there would be fans disagree with that through).

And you are right - Majority of fans don't give a damn about Comic book accuracy.

And majority of GA doesn't have any preconceived notions regarding these characters, they are far more open, than say die hard fans or casual fans (or they don't give a damn about seeing Reeve's Superman or Timm's Superman etc).

BvS and MOS failed (or continues to fail) to make lots of money, not because they got the character versions "wrong".

Critical reception is also a big factor (on BvS particularly, with the drops). If BvS had a tighter story/narrative, I don't think the versions themselves would matter that much (or affect the critical reviews that much).

(Or maybe I am wrong. I have seen enough MOS reviews where people say it's not Superman because he doesn't change in a phone booth or whatever).

It's simple. If you're taking a popular character and adapting him/her for the masses you should first and foremost find the common thread that the majority of people familiar with the character approve of and use that as a basis to mold the character. Marvel have done that. Nolan did that. It's not that hard. If you ignore that common thread you are recreating the character at a conceptual level. So why use that character to begin with?