BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 295

[Gianakin_]

Yeah, but then he's got to spend the night cancelling his credit cards and waste a personal day standing in line at the DMV. Thomas made the right call.

You're so right.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Nonsense.

WRITERS WRITE this.

These aren't things that actually happened.

They can WRITE it a certain way to have whatever point they're trying to make come off as strong as possible.

This is a man that dresses up as a bat and goes out at night to be a vigilante. All of this was triggered by the brutal and senseless murder of his parents. The senselessness of his parents murder should be front and center.

It's already a tough sell that a man would do what Bruce does, why make it harder for yourself?

Instead of that I'm left thinking whether or not Bruce shouldn't just be blaming his father for trying to punch a mugger and escalating the situation instead of dressing up as a bat at night looking for justice.

I know you guys enjoyed the movie and I'm happy for you. But do you really wanna defend this? Why not just admit when something didn't work?

I'll openly admit what I think DID work in BvS.

Bingo

 

[Gianakin_]

Holy ****, are we seriously going to nitpick about every single thing possible now. It's getting to the ridiculous levels now, I mean you can basically deconstruct almost any movie like this.

Sure, Batman's reason for existing is nitpicking.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Yeah, but then he's got to spend the night cancelling his credit cards and waste a personal day standing in line at the DMV. Thomas made the right call.

Maybe his mom gave him the wallet. Maybe HER name was Martha too

 

[gdw]

GOYER's script has the villain tell him a bunch of crap that Bruce disproves.

Yes Goyer's script.

As for Bruce, it becomes one of the driving forces in his mission. Bruce is all about the will to act, AND inspiring that in others. That was the entire goal of his Batman.

 

[Knightfall]

Ok, the "shouldn't have" is my entire point.

Since you agree, all I'm saying is... do you see Bruce having a point when he wages war on crime based on THAT origin? Do you see him standing there, in the big hall of Wayne Manor, flashing back to that night... and ignoring the fact that his dad acted how he acted?

Yes, I do. Because it is the Mugger's fault, the second he went up to them with a gun.. It doesn't matter if Thomas acts brashly or not, the mugger is at fault and took Bruce's family and that is ultimately what creates Batman. I do see your points, I just don't agree with them. But to each their own

 

[jae7702]

So if a guy high on meth threatens a cop with a knife and the cop shoots him it's not the cop's fault at all for escalating the situation?

Some of y'all seem to be making absolute statements based on pop culture knowledge.

If a guy on meth threatens a cop with a knife he is the one instigating the conflict, so the cop is not at fault if he shoots him. if a mugger pulls out a gun at someone he is also the one instigating the conflict.

A man with a knife can cover 20 feet of distance and stab you in less than a few seconds.

 

[Gianakin_]

Yes Goyer's script.

As for Bruce, it becomes one of the driving forces in his mission. Bruce is all about the will to act, AND inspiring that in others. That was the entire goal of his Batman.

And yet... by TDKR we have the citizens in their homes and cops defending them, with Bruce leaving another masked vigilante in his place.

 

[Gianakin_]

Yes, I do. Because it is the Mugger's fault, the second he went up to them with a gun.. It doesn't matter if Thomas acts brashly or not, the mugger is at fault and took Bruce's family and that is ultimately what creates Batman. I do see your points, I just don't agree with them. But to each their own

Alright.

 

[Poni_Boy]

If a guy on meth threatens a cop he is the one instigating the conflict, if a mugger pulls out a gun at someone he is also the one instigating the conflict.

That doesn't answer the question I asked. Try again

 

[Flint Marko]

Look what you've done to us, Snyder.

 

[antoineflemming]

So if a guy high on meth threatens a cop with a knife and the cop shoots him it's not the cop's fault at all for escalating the situation?

Some of y'all seem to be making absolute statements based on pop culture knowledge.

Does that guy high on meth with a knife physically threaten that cop? Does he attempt to do bodily harm to that cop? If that's the case, then no, the cop is not at fault because the cop isn't escalating the situation.

 

[gdw]

So if a guy high on meth threatens a cop with a knife and the cop shoots him it's not the cop's fault at all for escalating the situation?

Some of y'all seem to be making absolute statements based on pop culture knowledge.

No, actually. It's not. A waked out person threatens you with a knife, defending your life is not an escalation. What world are you living in?

Now, police are people who's JOB it is to deal with those types of situations, so you are actually comparing apples and oranges, and you still didn't make your point.

While I do thing that North American police need to be trained/refocused on deescalation, and non-violent resolution, but that's a whole other can of worms, AND still makes my point. That's the difference between a cop in a dangerous situation, and an average citizen.

The police have (or SHOULD have) actual training in how to deescalate, and react in that situation, and they would STILL be fully justified in using lethal force to defend themselves and those around them.

 

[titansupes]

Yes, he did, and Nolan's script shoves that in Bruce's face, and blames Thomas' lack of action for their deaths.

Actually, the script had a villain who believes in wiping out civilizations so they can grow back stronger say that, and Bruce reject it outright.

 

[jae7702]

Sure, Batman's reason for existing is nitpicking.

It was already stated in the original source material the father tries to intervene. Even if his father intervened and got shot, he would still be angry at criminals for shooting and killing his parents. When you witness your mothers face being blown off at a young age, it leaves a mark no matter what.

 

[javonstokess]

Plain and simple: The movie should have been called "Superman/Batman: World's Finest" and been about both individuals, how they relate to each other and how the world relates to them.

Once again, Bruce Timm and Paul Dini did it best. Their team up in the animated series was a pitch perfect way to have the characters meet, work together while having a rivalry and not be raging lunatics.

 

[Poni_Boy]

Does that guy high on meth with a knife physically threaten that cop? Does he attempt to do bodily harm to that cop? If that's the case, then no, the cop is not at fault because the cop isn't escalating the situation.

Wrong. The cop IS at fault. Just like in court Thomas' escalation would be used in the mugger's defense.

 

[gdw]

And yet... by TDKR we have the citizens in their homes and cops defending them, with Bruce leaving another masked vigilante in his place.

No, we have citizens, AND coward cops hiding in their homes, showing this to be the WRONG course of (lack of) action.
THEN we have people standing up. Leaving another vigilante proves the point. He's inspired someone else to actually act..

 

[Poni_Boy]

No, actually. It's not. A waked out person threatens you with a knife, defending your life is not an escalation. What world are you living in?

Again, wrong. See my above post. If anything the way it was written would have been used in the mugger's defense

 

[Mjölnir]

I'm sorry, when someone points a gun at you, no matter how you react, YOU are NOT the one provoking anything. The guy who pulled the ****ing gun is.

That's 100% not true. I'm a fairly accomplished martial artist so I've been invited by the local police to help with some self-defense seminars and a very general rule is not to provoke violence from someone threatening you. Especially when weapons are involved. If you want to keep yourself and others safe, avoid confrontation as much as possible. You try to learn self-defense for when you're being attacked, not for when you're being threatened.

The mugger is of course guilty of the crime if he shoots someone, but if your actions were what provoked violence from him then you'll have that on your conscience and it can be used in the muggers defense.

Yes, that's absolutely true. And sometimes, good writers write characters who act like people do in real life. Wow, what a concept.

People in real life generally don't act like that when they are being mugged, if that's what you tried to say. That's not what's important here though as the importance is to get the message of the scene.

 

[gdw]

Dude. Think you need to take a break and go for a walk. That's completely uncalled for

Maybe you need to take a walk and think about what you are saying about victims.

 

[Gianakin_]

No, we have citizens, AND coward cops hiding in their homes, showing this to be the WRONG course of (lack of) action.
THEN we have people standing up. Leaving another vigilante proves the point. He's inspired someone else to actually act..

What you have is people cowering and doing nothing, we have an army of cops and we have ONE vigilante (who will be self-trained, it's implied). It's like Nolan's Batman 4 would be like Batman Begins (not in a bad way). There is nothing about ordinary citizens learning to stand up for themselves, there is more "use a mask".

 

[gdw]

Actually, the script had a villain who believes in wiping out civilizations so they can grow back stronger say that, and Bruce reject it outright.

No, he didn't. He made inspiring others to act the entire purpose oft he existence of Batman. That's made unbelievably explicit in the films.

 

[Gianakin_]

Most muggers/junkies have some sort of weapon because they're not just gonna come up to you and say "Gimme your money", expecting the victim to comply. They have a gun as an insurance that the victim will do as they're told.

Most of the times there is NO intent to kill. They're criminals, but not necessarily of the murdering kind. For that reason, there's a huge possibility that they'll take your money and pearl necklace and leave. In which case, you have to ask yourself: "My money or my life?", because if there's intent to kill and you're not sure... you're risking your life when there's no guarantee it was at risk in the first place.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Yes, that's absolutely true. And sometimes, good writers write characters who act like people do in real life. Wow, what a concept.

But the WHOLE point of this was to sell us that a man would become Batman. So maybe don't write it like that then?

I've said this a dozen times if there are 100 ways to do something right or right enough and only 1 way to absolutely mess it up Snyder never fails to go with that one wrong way.

Yes people also react impulsively and escalate an already dangerous situation, thats true.

Some people **** and piss themselves when a gun is stuck in their face, some people use their wife and child as a human shield.

The point is for Bruce journey to be somewhat believable we needed Thomas Wayne to be none of all that.