BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - Part 302

[Kanon]

I saw it for a fourth viewing on Saturday night.

Only issue I have with the film, honestly, is the placement of the JL cameos. Once the bat signal was lit, it should've progressed right into the BvS fight. The JL cameo didn't need to be there - it should've been beforehand.

I just read the same complaint from an old post, and I was thinking the cameos browsing the Luthor files would have been a cool thing to see during the credits. Not a mid credits or after credits scene, but browsing as the credits rolls, either as background or short sceneces popping up (I prefer the former)

 

[KillerMcQueen]

I just read the same complaint from an old post, and I was thinking the cameos browsing the Luthor files would have been a cool thing to see during the credits. Not a mid credits or after credits scene, but browsing as the credits rolls, either as background or short sceneces popping up (I prefer the former)

the end credits being JL cameos done sort of in the style of Watchmen's opening credits would've been great.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

The cameos is something I didn't mind.
Aquaman's cameo is ridiculously awkward.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

The cameos is something I didn't mind.
Aquaman's cameo is ridiculously awkward.

Yeah, I hope they figure out filming AM underwater for JL and the solo, you could tell Momoa was holding his breath in the cameo.

 

[AndrewOz]

Of course the vast majority of the world needs to like the movie if they are looking for success. You are absolutely right in that regard. But I seriously doubt the vast majority of audience who saw the movie are Superman fans and I seriously doubt Superman was their complaint in the movie.

There's a massive appetite for the trinity in the GA, even those who aren't "fans".
There were massive problems for me with both of them (Snyder never had a chance to wreck WW), but look how quickly WB green lit a new Batfleck solo flick.
The announcement for a MoS 2 hasn't progressed beyond Snyder and Cavill stating they'd like to.
I can concede that the worst thing about this movie may not have been Superman (it's Snyders philosophy), but Superman is the engine driving this semi-sequel.
Remember, this was supposed to be MoS2 originally, but after MoS's reception, WB had no confidence in a standalone Superman film.
Almost everyone is interested in a Superman film, certainly enough to crack $1b, but almost no-one is interested in watching fumble around incompetently for no reason other than to give him a growth arc.
Even fewer are demonstrably interested in seeing him portrayed as Howard Roark.
So Superman is not the problem. The incoherent tales of the incompetent Snyderman are.

 

[DerekLake]

There's a massive appetite for the trinity in the GA, even those who aren't "fans".
There were massive problems for me with both of them (Snyder never had a chance to wreck WW), but look how quickly WB green lit a new Batfleck solo flick.
The announcement for a MoS 2 hasn't progressed beyond Snyder and Cavill stating they'd like to.
I can concede that the worst thing about this movie may not have been Superman (it's Snyders philosophy), but Superman is the engine driving this semi-sequel.
Remember, this was supposed to be MoS2 originally, but after MoS's reception, WB had no confidence in a standalone Superman film.
Almost everyone is interested in a Superman film, certainly enough to crack $1b, but almost no-one is interested in watching fumble around incompetently for no reason other than to give him a growth arc.
Even fewer are demonstrably interested in seeing him portrayed as Howard Roark.
So Superman is not the problem. The incoherent tales of the incompetent Snyderman are.

I'd agree that there's certainly a market for Superman. And since BvS comprises mostly Superman's supporting characters, this film hinged on how it handled Superman (and Clark Kent).

Yet I also don't think the GA knows what they want out of Superman (keeping in mind, of course, that the GA is not a monolithic group). What the GA knows is the Donner/Reeve Superman, and the [general] Marvel approach; they might have some familiarity with Smallville. I don't think any of those popular approaches is sufficient for a character of such iconic import and loaded meaning as Superman.

And yet I think that's the key to getting Superman right - embracing just how important both his identities are. As Nolan's trilogy demonstrates, a film rises and falls on the basis of its supporting characters and villains. For Superman, that supporting cast happens to be the Daily Planet, the "home" of Clark Kent and Lois Lane. If WB wants to get Superman right, I think they need to find someone who can tell a story that supports and develops both the journalist and the hero, with respect.

 

[AndrewOz]

I'd agree that there's certainly a market for Superman. And since BvS comprises mostly Superman's supporting characters, this film hinged on how it handled Superman (and Clark Kent).

Yet I also don't think the GA knows what they want out of Superman (keeping in mind, of course, that the GA is not a monolithic group). What the GA knows is the Donner/Reeve Superman, and the [general] Marvel approach; they might have some familiarity with Smallville. I don't think any of those popular approaches is sufficient for a character of such iconic import and loaded meaning as Superman.

And yet I think that's the key to getting Superman right - embracing just how important both his identities are. As Nolan's trilogy demonstrates, a film rises and falls on the basis of its supporting characters and villains. For Superman, that supporting cast happens to be the Daily Planet, the "home" of Clark Kent and Lois Lane. If WB wants to get Superman right, I think they need to find someone who can tell a story that supports and develops both the journalist and the hero, with respect.

I agree 100%. It's not the explosions and violence that create a compelling narrative, it's the interaction between characters.
Even the 2 most iconic loners for both sides, Batman and Wolverine (well, before)became a bit of a running joke because they had more sidekicks/support characters and were members on many more teams than the traditional teamwork icons of Superman and Cap.
Snyder's take on this?
Make Superman increasingly isolated, a borderline mute and the punchline?
Kill Jimmy at the start of BvS and Clark at the end. He is deliberately killing off Superman's tethers to humanity. I'm amazed that both Lois and Martha survived.
Then he wonders why people can't find anything to relate to.

 

[DerekLake]

I agree 100%. It's not the explosions and violence that create a compelling narrative, it's the interaction between characters.
Even the 2 most iconic loners for both sides, Batman and Wolverine (well, before)became a bit of a running joke because they had more sidekicks/support characters and were members on many more teams than the traditional teamwork icons of Superman and Cap.
Snyder's take on this?
Make Superman increasingly isolated, a borderline mute and the punchline?
Kill Jimmy at the start of BvS and Clark at the end. He is deliberately killing off Superman's tethers to humanity. I'm amazed that both Lois and Martha survived.
Then he wonders why people can't find anything to relate to.

Given how Lex goes full Arkham at the end, Snyder might as well have killed off him too. I wonder if Zack deliberately tried to ruin the possibility of another Superman solo film, or if he just thought it'd be cool to do so.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Superman needs Clark to feel normal, Clark needs Superman to provide an escape from normality when the time calls for it. That dynamic was kind of missing in BvS.

 

[Flint Marko]

The cameos is something I didn't mind.
Aquaman's cameo is ridiculously awkward.

Ignoring the awful "email" thing, I actually thought Aquaman's cameo was kind of cool. It just hovered on him for way too long, I counted five full seconds of him just staring at the camera.

 

[Timebomb]

I agree 100%. It's not the explosions and violence that create a compelling narrative, it's the interaction between characters.
Even the 2 most iconic loners for both sides, Batman and Wolverine (well, before)became a bit of a running joke because they had more sidekicks/support characters and were members on many more teams than the traditional teamwork icons of Superman and Cap.
Snyder's take on this?
Make Superman increasingly isolated, a borderline mute and the punchline?
Kill Jimmy at the start of BvS and Clark at the end. He is deliberately killing off Superman's tethers to humanity. I'm amazed that both Lois and Martha survived.
Then he wonders why people can't find anything to relate to.

God, I never thought about it like that. I always thought he was using BVS to give the middle finger to the audience because of the criticisms of MOS. I never imagined that he might be just straight out killing all aspects of the character out of spite. Is it possible?

 

[TripleJ]

I agree 100%. It's not the explosions and violence that create a compelling narrative, it's the interaction between characters.
Even the 2 most iconic loners for both sides, Batman and Wolverine (well, before)became a bit of a running joke because they had more sidekicks/support characters and were members on many more teams than the traditional teamwork icons of Superman and Cap.
Snyder's take on this?
Make Superman increasingly isolated, a borderline mute and the punchline?
Kill Jimmy at the start of BvS and Clark at the end. He is deliberately killing off Superman's tethers to humanity. I'm amazed that both Lois and Martha survived.
Then he wonders why people can't find anything to relate to.

Wait, what? Olsen hasn't mattered in years. DC tried to make him relevant, with giving him superheroes and all that - didn't work too well though.

Lois is Clark's tether to humanity (well, even that is arguable - New 52 has been playing around with Clark-Diana relationship, and it's done quite well).

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Yeah, I hope they figure out filming AM underwater for JL and the solo, you could tell Momoa was holding his breath in the cameo.

Ignoring the awful "email" thing, I actually thought Aquaman's cameo was kind of cool. It just hovered on him for way too long, I counted five full seconds of him just staring at the camera.

That dance, that freaking dance....

 

[AndrewOz]

Don't know if the was discussed but if in some scenario, Ben Affleck takes over from Zack Snyder for good moving forward, I'd like to see a Ben Affleck Director's Cut of BvS from the 4 hour film they have.

Given how Lex goes full Arkham at the end, Snyder might as well have killed off him too. I wonder if Zack deliberately tried to ruin the possibility of another Superman solo film, or if he just thought it'd be cool to do so.

I honestly think he believes it's cool and this is the Superman everyone wants.
I don't really want the goofy elements of Donner up there either, but at least they were done in the name of lighthearted fun, not pretentious import.

I picture Zack fast forwarding through 10 seasons of Smallville and stopping when he sees Clark robbing ATM's and banks, thinking Now this is my kind of Superman! He was probably scratching his head when he took the red Kryptonite ring off.
With Clark now dead and publicly buried, this is probably how Zack plans on having him support himself.
At least it would be more entertaining than Super-depressed-man.
Or maybe Superman will just start handing out invoices after he saves people/averts natural disasters.
Maybe he plans on setting himself up as the Donald Trump of Metropolis, but that will cause him to run afoul of the Unions. Maybe Zack doesn't like unions.
MoS2: TvS. Superman takes on the Teamsters!

There's a crazy idea forming in my brain that Zack's no-Clark arc is there to show why it would be impossible to have a meaningful connection with humanity as Superman without a secret identity (as the comics have explored repeatedly).
Then, when he decides he really needs one, he'll come up the name Howard Roark. Or Zack.

 

[DerekLake]

Wait, what? Olsen hasn't mattered in years. DC tried to make him relevant, with giving him superheroes and all that - didn't work too well though.

Lois is Clark's tether to humanity (well, even that is arguable - New 52 has been playing around with Clark-Diana relationship, and it's done quite well).

Have you seen Spotlight? Or Daredevil Season 1? One of the reasons why Batman has thrived so well is because he has one of the largest group of developed supporting characters, both allies and villains. That's a wealth of stories to tell, characters to develop, and interactions to depict. Superman only has a handful of good supporting characters. That means far less stories can be told about him.

I bring up Spotlight and Daredevil because they both feature investigative reporters doing the long, hard work of uncovering a story and following it to the end. I bring them up because they are quite relevant to Superman, whose supporting allies consist largely of investigative reporters who have been chronically underdeveloped and, in the New 52, largely neglected. Jimmy Olsen hasn't mattered because DC doesn't know how to make him matter. I think there is a way to make Jimmy, and Lois, and Perry, and Clark Kent himself matter, and that's by making the Daily Planet -- and Clark's professional life -- far more integral to Superman's stories. That requires, of course, an appreciation for investigative reporting and how the aim of journalism -- truth -- can actually be an integral part of Superman's identity and mission.

This would undoubtedly change how Clark/Superman's stories are told. It would require shifting the focus of his stories toward corruption and social justice. It may even require a reinterpretation of characters like Jimmy Olsen. But I think it's necessary and worth it. This wouldn't necessarily shut out superpowered or alien characters, though it may shift the context in which those characters appear (for example: MOS' Zod is introduced in the context of how societies should be structured).

 

[MrsKent26]

Superman needs Clark to feel normal, Clark needs Superman to provide an escape from normality when the time calls for it. That dynamic was kind of missing in BvS.

The way I see it, Superman doesn't really need Clark. He could exist as Superman full time because he loves what he does as superman. He does, however, love being Clark. His Clark life is like a dearly treasured possession. As much as he adores rescuing people, he also loves being a person and being with them. He doesn't see the common life of people as something to decent to; it's a source of pride and enjoyment for him. As superman, it can be hard for him to do "everyday" stuff because of how people see him. Clark allows him to mingle without the endless awe of those around him (a necessary thing if one likes to experience life as a regular Joe).

And yes, that was missing in BvS. BvS superman comes off as such as stand-offish loner of a fellow that I can't imagine he'd have the same affection for Clark as other interpretations.

 

[DerekLake]

I honestly think he believes it's cool and this is the Superman everyone wants.
I don't really want the goofy elements of Donner up there either, but at least they were done in the name of lighthearted fun, not pretentious import.

I picture Zack fast forwarding through 10 seasons of Smallville and stopping when he sees Clark robbing ATM's and banks, thinking Now this is my kind of Superman! He was probably scratching his head when he took the red Kryptonite ring off.
With Clark now dead and publicly buried, this is probably how Zack plans on having him support himself.
At least it would be more entertaining than Super-depressed-man.
Or maybe Superman will just start handing out invoices after he saves people/averts natural disasters.
Maybe he plans on setting himself up as the Donald Trump of Metropolis, but that will cause him to run afoul of the Unions. Maybe Zack doesn't like unions.
MoS2: TvS. Superman takes on the Teamsters!

There's a crazy idea forming in my brain that Zack's no-Clark arc is there to show why it would be impossible to have a meaningful connection with humanity as Superman without a secret identity (as the comics have explored repeatedly).
Then, when he decides he really needs one, he'll come up the name Howard Roark. Or Zack.

My bigger worry is that Zack uses Superman's resurrection to turn him into Dr. Manhattan or the MCU Thor: either an entirely transcendent character with no tether to humanity or a generic "god" only useful because of his power.

 

[DerekLake]

The way I see it, Superman doesn't really need Clark. He could exist as Superman full time because he loves what he does as superman. He does, however, love being Clark. His Clark life is like a dearly treasured possession. As much as he adores rescuing people, he also loves being a person and being with them. He doesn't see the common life of people as something to decent to; it's a source of pride and enjoyment for him. As superman, it can be hard for him to do "everyday" stuff because of how people see him. Clark allows him to mingle without the endless awe of those around him (a necessary thing if one likes to experience life as a regular Joe).

And yes, that was missing in BvS. BvS superman comes off as such as stand-offish loner of a fellow that I can't imagine he'd have the same affection for Clark as other interpretations.

The dichotomy between the civilian Clark and the hero Superman is certainly important from a personal standpoint. But I'm also interested in the dichotomy between the professional Clark and Superman. I don't mean the weak, insignificant, clumsy "Clark." I mean the passionate investigative reporter who sees value not only in his vocational role as a towering beacon of hope, but also in his professional role as a very human champion of truth and justice.

 

[MrsKent26]

Wait, what? Olsen hasn't mattered in years. DC tried to make him relevant, with giving him superheroes and all that - didn't work too well though.

Lois is Clark's tether to humanity (well, even that is arguable - New 52 has been playing around with Clark-Diana relationship, and it's done quite well).

Olsen does matter. It would be very easy to make a likeable character out of him for a movie. In fact, Jimmy was one of the few positive things about SR. He (and the rest of the DP gang) could provide some much needed comic relief and they could write him as a true friend to Clark. Adding colorful supporting characters into Clark's life gives everything more personality. Characters like Jimmy, while seemingly unnecessary, can be vehicles for us to learn more about Clark and how he interacts with others.

The dichotomy between the civilian Clark and the hero Superman is certainly important from a personal standpoint. But I'm also interested in the dichotomy between the professional Clark and Superman. I don't mean the weak, insignificant, clumsy "Clark." I mean the passionate investigative reporter who sees value not only in his vocational role as a towering beacon of hope, but also in his professional role as a very human champion of truth and justice.

I agree. My ideal on-screen version of Clark would be one that is very passionate about championing for people through reporting. He'd be a bit like a male Erin Brockovich. I'd still like him to be quiet and a bit awkward to provide contrast and allow him to blend in. He'd be the guy that everyone likes because he's an obviously nice dude, but no one really pays him much notice until he comes out with a truly affecting human interest story for the Planet.

 

[AndrewOz]

Don't know if the was discussed but if in some scenario, Ben Affleck takes over from Zack Snyder for good moving forward, I'd like to see a Ben Affleck Director's Cut of BvS from the 4 hour film they have.

Given how Lex goes full Arkham at the end, Snyder might as well have killed off him too. I wonder if Zack deliberately tried to ruin the possibility of another Superman solo film, or if he just thought it'd be cool to do so.

I honestly think he believes it's cool and this is the Superman everyone wants.
I don't the goofy elements of Donner up there either, but at least they were done in the name of lighthearted fun, not pretentious import.

I picture Zack fast forwarding through 10 seasons of Smallville and stopping when he sees Clark robbing ATM's and banks, thinking Now this is my kind of Superman! He was probably scratching his head when he took the red Kryptonite ring off.
With Clark now dead and publicly buried, this is probably how Zack plans on having him support himself.
At least it would be more entertaining than Super-depressed-man.
Or maybe Superman will just start handing out invoices after he saves people/averts natural disasters.
Maybe he plans on setting himself up as the Donald Trump of Metropolis, but that will cause him to run afoul of the Unions. Maybe Zack doesn't like unions.
MoS2: TvS. Superman takes on the Teamsters!

There's a crazy idea forming in my brain that Zack's no-Clark arc is there to show why it would be impossible to have a meaningful connection with humanity as Superman without a secret identity (as the comics have explored repeatedly).
Then, when he decides he really needs one, he'll come up the name Howard Roark. Or Zack.

 

[javonstokess]

Well, doesn't matter if we all like Clark Kent.

The Superman in the Murderverse can't be Clark anymore. They buried him and he's legally dead. Superman might be able to come back from that, but "Clark Kent" can't.

Even the comics were smart enough to not establish "Kent" as dying when Supes got killed by Doomsday.

 

[MadVillainy]

Well, doesn't matter if we all like Clark Kent.

The Superman in the Murderverse can't be Clark anymore. They buried him and he's legally dead. Superman might be able to come back from that, but "Clark Kent" can't.

Even the comics were smart enough to not establish "Kent" as dying when Supes got killed by Doomsday.

Yeah it really annoys me how they handled Clark Kent in the DCEU

 

[Mjölnir]

Yeah, I hope they figure out filming AM underwater for JL and the solo, you could tell Momoa was holding his breath in the cameo.

I agree, he looked like a human underwater, which isn't strange since they just put the actor underwater. I expected the shot to make it seem effortless, just like how they do with flying characters that don't look like they get bothered by high speed wind in their eyes. I got attacked for that opinion a month ago though. Apparently it was "being a hater".

 

[Poni_Boy]

It's everything I dreamed of and more

[YT]pTuyfQ5CR4Q[/YT]

https://youtu.be/pTuyfQ5CR4Q

 

[Enriquespy]

Yeah, aquaman was clearly holding his breath.