BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - Part 302

[shauner111]

The opening sequence where Superman drives that man through three walls was the first major warning sign I had with the movie.

Snyder simply opting for a cool (and in his mind, amusing) visual without taking into account the logical implications of the action. And after the huge uproar over him killing Zod in the previous movie, and after Goyer's rationalization that he had to learn that killing is bad (LOL).

It's just so utterly thoughtless.

The first major warning sign for me was the dream during the opening credits where bats lift up a young Bruce Wayne. When you make everyone in the audience think this film is going to be stupid, even if those thoughts only last 15 seconds before we breathe a sigh of relief when being told it's a dream....yeah, it's not an intelligent move. You dont want to lose the audience for any duration.

The second sign was a character we've never seen before dies because he waited for Bruce's permission to leave a building that's about to be wiped out. Even after given permission, this brand new character stays on the top floor, alone.

Third sign was Superman killing a dude in his first scene, with excitement in his eyes.

Fourth sign was realizing how poorly edited the film was. And it just kept going. From realizing Lois is not a character who has a life outside of Superman (all she seems to do or think about revolves around "her man"), to noticing how over the top/out of character Eisenberg's Luthor was, to noticing how violent/out of character Batman was. Then comes the poor CGI, the lack of motivations before the big fight, the embarrassing resolve to that big fight, the unnecessary/goofy dream sequences, the unnecessary/goofy Doomsday, the unnecessary/goofy Justice League videos and finally the bad acting (outside of Jeremy Irons and sometimes Ben Affleck).

But yes, the first BIG sign has to be Superman killing that guy and with poor acting skills trying to convince his girlfriend and the audience that he didn't kill anybody in Africa.

The director's cut will make this movie completely unwatchable with more thoughtless scenes, or it will make it a little bit better.

 

[javonstokess]

Do we all not watch a film with the emotive view of how it makes us feel through the very notion of what you mention, the dialogue, the actions of the characters, or a mix of both.

For example, the line 'This is my world, you are my world', thus the inspirational piece referred to in previous posts, Superman is encapsulating that he has been inspired by the people of earth by the first statement and the love of Lois in the other (he's been inspired by her)

The saving sequences - Day of the Dead, Roof top rescue - all actions/scenes that are very much in Superman's nature (indicating it's utter rubbish, that Snyder does not get Superman), he has made Earth his home, at that point, he is playing 'his side of the bargain', it is us as a race of people who do not show the faith in him UNTIL the Doomsday face off and thus in turn, Batman's shift in view.

With all due respect, nothing about Superman was inspirational. Saving people doesn't necessarily make you inspirational. It's your actions and words when you're not being super heroic; which is why he should have spoken during the Congress scene.

I really don't mean to make this a Marvel vs. DC thing, but the best example I can give you is how Marvel's had Captain America act. His speeches in CA:WS and CA:CW are inspiration because he not only see his actions, but the thought process behind those actions as well.

 

[metaphysician]

Affleck's no Feige. This guy claims to be a huge Batman fan yet he can't see when the character is being butchered while he plays him. He was super supportive of Snyders vision so what makes HIM an authority on all things DC?

For DC to have a succesful Feige situation you need someone who doesn't give a **** about Snyder, only the source material, GA and fans.

Being fair to Affleck, could he really say "Snyder sucks, I wish he would be fired so someone whose competent could take over"?

 

[X Knight]

I agree that Superman was hurt in part by lack of dialogue.

 

[Sleiek]

The opening sequence where Superman drives that man through three walls was the first major warning sign I had with the movie.

Snyder simply opting for a cool (and in his mind, amusing) visual without taking into account the logical implications of the action. And after the huge uproar over him killing Zod in the previous movie, and after Goyer's rationalization that he had to learn that killing is bad (LOL).

It's just so utterly thoughtless.

Thank you so much. I found this picture on twitter last week and I have been waiting to use it ever since.

Spoiler

Also this makes sense because Clark says he didn't kill anyone in the movie.

But you know what, I don't blame those who think Clark killed that man, Zack could have shown us a slo mo shot of that point of impact. I think Snyder wasted the potential of using slo-mo. He used them for Wayne Murder scene and Funeral scene, great. But I wished he showed them to emphasize the Super speed.

 

[shauner111]

I agree that Superman was hurt in part by lack of dialogue.

Dialogue and mediocre acting.

 

[obredaan]

Do we all not watch a film with the emotive view of how it makes us feel through the very notion of what you mention, the dialogue, the actions of the characters, or a mix of both.

For example, the line 'This is my world, you are my world', thus the inspirational piece referred to in previous posts, Superman is encapsulating that he has been inspired by the people of earth by the first statement and the love of Lois in the other (he's been inspired by her)

The saving sequences - Day of the Dead, Roof top rescue - all actions/scenes that are very much in Superman's nature (indicating it's utter rubbish, that Snyder does not get Superman), he has made Earth his home, at that point, he is playing 'his side of the bargain', it is us as a race of people who do not show the faith in him UNTIL the Doomsday face off and thus in turn, Batman's shift in view.

I'm not quite sure how a 30 second montage of Superman saving people shows Snyder understands the character. He's not Superman just because he saves people which is something I don't think Snyder appreciates. The film also starts off with Superman killing a human by smashing him through multiple concrete walls at mach speed. They can have throw away lines that state Superman didn't kill anyone but Snyder has told us again and again that his film takes place in the 'real' world. Thus a human being smashed through multiple concrete walls, at mach speed, would be dead in the 'real' world. You can't show Superman randomly kill people and expect me to believe Snyder understands the character. He just doesn't.

 

[shauner111]

Hahahaha roof top rescue, day of the dead, all in a 3 minute montage. What about the rest of the movie? Almost 2 and a half hours of "i hate my life". Until "this is my world"...OK so shouldn't you try your best to stick around so you can save lives for decades to come? Nope. Im going to grab a spear so i can DIE even though my friends can get the job done! Very smart.

They should turn this into a comedy where it's like George Costanza, who tries to get fired every day but can't. Well Superman just wants to not live on this planet. He's trying to die cuz he hates his life. He even tried sacrificing his life but damnit, his body won't even let him die for good. He'll gladly take the hit by a nuke, but nope, this stupid soul of mine won't let me die. Stabbed in the heart with a spear (still think that should have been the final blow at the end of the series...it's ridiculous that he comes back from that)...still... i won't die. If Zod can die from a broken neck, Supes should be dead.

FML should be tattooed on Kal-El's forehead the next time we see him. Maybe him and Joker can compare their forehead tattoo's. See which one is more damaged.

 

[NateHevens]

shauner111... I feel similar to you about everything, but the one thing I have to disagree with you on is the acting. The only actor chosen to be in the film I was not a fan of until seeing it was Ben Affleck. I've never been able to stand his acting, and he surprised me here because I thought he was great. I am a fan of basically all the other actors.

I think they all did their absolute and complete best with what they were given. My problem is with what they were given, not what they did with it. And yes, I'm even including Jesse Eisenberg, here. BvS is the first movie with Jesse Eisenberg that I haven't liked (admittedly, I haven't seen close to all his movies; but the ones I have seen, aside from BvS, have been awesome, and I've always thought that he's a good actor). I will say that Jesse's acting wasn't perfect; he is admittedly not a comic reader, and so doesn't really know Lex Luthor the same way the others (at least seem to, based on their interviews) know their characters.

To me, the issue is with the characterizations the actors were given to perform. I do believe, very strongly, that Henry Cavill can pull off the Superman we all deserve if working with the right director. When he talks about Superman, it's clear (to me, at least), that he really is a fan of the character. I get the same impressions from Ben Affleck talking about Batman, and Gal Gadot talking about Wonder Woman (I really think she has the potential to be THE definitive Wonder Woman of this generation), and so on.

We can argue, of course, with their willingness to go along with the crap characterizations they were given, and you would probably find me on your side in that argument, but I really don't think the acting was close to the problem with BvS...

That's my take on it, anyways...

 

[shauner111]

shauner111... I feel similar to you about everything, but the one thing I have to disagree with you on is the acting. The only actor chosen to be in the film I was not a fan of until seeing it was Ben Affleck. I've never been able to stand his acting, and he surprised me here because I thought he was great. I am a fan of basically all the other actors.

I think they all did their absolute and complete best with what they were given. My problem is with what they were given, not what they did with it. And yes, I'm even including Jesse Eisenberg, here. BvS is the first movie with Jesse Eisenberg that I haven't liked (admittedly, I haven't seen close to all his movies; but the ones I have seen, aside from BvS, have been awesome, and I've always thought that he's a good actor). I will say that Jesse's acting wasn't perfect; he is admittedly not a comic reader, and so doesn't really know Lex Luthor the same way the others (at least seem to, based on their interviews) know their characters.

To me, the issue is with the characterizations the actors were given to perform. I do believe, very strongly, that Henry Cavill can pull off the Superman we all deserve if working with the right director. When he talks about Superman, it's clear (to me, at least), that he really is a fan of the character. I get the same impressions from Ben Affleck talking about Batman, and Gal Gadot talking about Wonder Woman (I really think she has the potential to be THE definitive Wonder Woman of this generation), and so on.

We can argue, of course, with their willingness to go along with the crap characterizations they were given, and you would probably find me on your side in that argument, but I really don't think the acting was close to the problem with BvS...

That's my take on it, anyways...

Adams was given crap but she makes it passable because she's a good actress. But even Amy comes off incredibly mediocre in both of these films. Even something as simple as a shot of Lois staring at a camera or a notebook comes off like she's totally aware of the camera. I don't know what it is, or maybe i do...Zack Snyder's direction. There seems to be a self-awareness with Michael Shannon, Amy Adams, Henry Cavill etc that just rubs me the wrong way. And i know it's the material and the direction.

Cavill has never impressed me. Not a good actor, at all. But he's done better outside of Superman. Im not saying every scene is bad. He has the odd scene that i like, but it's always a scene where he doesn't have dialogue and is not being directed to look angry. For example his facial expression when Martha tells him he doesn't owe this world a thing.

Gadot is another one who is fine reacting to things like shots of her at the first party, in the Wonder Woman costume, and simply reacting to those metahuman video clips. Then she opens her mouth. Great accent, very mediocre delivery. She sounds like an actress who is just starting out as an actress, well because she pretty much is.

I agree that Cavill can do better with better direction. And im positive Gadot will do better in her own movie. But right now i think the Justice League is made up of very mediocre actors. And they only look worse when you put them next to Robert Downey Jr, Chris Evans, Mark Ruffalo, Chadwick Boseman, Tom Holland, Anthony Mackie, Paul Bettany, etc.

History has shown that you can feel nothing for the character in the source material, and still deliver a great performance. I don't think it matters if Gal or Henry love the characters they're playing. It comes down to skill, good direction and solid dialogue.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Anyone notice Batman's age didn't have any impact on the film other than his disillusionment? In the action scenes he was moving around like he was 25. Once again Snyder throws out characterization once the action begins.

In TDKR, this movie's chief inspiration, there is constant reminder of how much harder this is for Bruce. Batman constantly laments his aching bones, sore muscles, and his heart and lungs being on fire. Batman is verbally jealous of the young bodies of the mutant leader and the cops. But I guess this would be too interesting to show.

 

[Slade W]

If I remember correctly, the animated movie didn't show his struggles that much either, or at least as much as I would have liked. I was disappointed about that, as it played a big part in the comic. It was interesting seeing Bruce's internal struggle in the comics, and him worrying that his body would not be able to take much more.

 

[shauner111]

Anyone notice Batman's age didn't have any impact on the film other than his disillusionment? In the action scenes he was moving around like he was 25. Once again Snyder throws out characterization once the action begins.

In TDKR, this movie's chief inspiration, there is constant reminder of how much harder this is for Bruce. Batman constantly laments his aching bones, sore muscles, and his heart and lungs being on fire. Batman is verbally jealous of the young bodies of the mutant leader and the cops. But I guess this would be too interesting to show.

Great point dude. There's so much bad characterization and dumb writing that i forgot about the whole concept of making this version older and tired. OK Affleck made him look tired. But he looks, trains, moves like he's at the peak of his career. They could have taken the grey out of his hair, said "10 years in Gotham Alfred, how many of em' stayed good?" and it would have felt the same. He was moving around like he was in his early 30's. I remember seeing scars on his chest (those bat-boobies). But so did Bale during TDK. I mean, i truly believe that Terrio has never seen a Batman movie or picked up a single comic other than Dark Knight Returns, MAYBE, after Snyder suggested it. But did these two even read that graphic novel?

Anything that adds depth to a character, or sounds interesting or adds personality...we know by now that Snyder is going to reject and put his fingers in his ears like a 9 year old.

 

[Boom]

I can buy a 40-year-old man moving youthfully if he were a health and fitness freak (which Bruce should be).

But that's kinda why I wanted them to go for a leaner build for Affleck. More endurance/stamina training rather than bulk. How Batman moved so quickly with that much weight is a bit jarring. Especially for his age.

 

[Bruce Malone]

Anyone notice Batman's age didn't have any impact on the film other than his disillusionment? In the action scenes he was moving around like he was 25. Once again Snyder throws out characterization once the action begins.

In TDKR, this movie's chief inspiration, there is constant reminder of how much harder this is for Bruce. Batman constantly laments his aching bones, sore muscles, and his heart and lungs being on fire. Batman is verbally jealous of the young bodies of the mutant leader and the cops. But I guess this would be too interesting to show.

Yeah apparently 20 years straight of living as Batman only has a toll on your mind not your body. Sort of like being an accountant I guess?

As much flack as Rises got for depicting Bruce retiring it did a decent job showing how even a few years as Batman would have profound physical affects on your body.

Ben in real life and in the movie looks like a 40+ year old who's a had a pretty decent life at least physically.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Keep in mind the warehouse scene where he moves around like a 25 year old Batman, scratch that, a 25 year old Nightwing, comes right after he got thrown through a building and onto his bat signal and then once again thrown down several stories onto the ground.

In the comic book, one blow from Superman shattered many of his ribs. And this is the same armor from the comics. He should not be anywhere near standing, let alone moving around as he did in the warehouse.

 

[shauner111]

Even in Suicide Squad (which may be fine if it's a flashback) makes batman look leaner and quicker. The warehouse scene had a stuntman who looked leaner. It's true Tacit. He just came from being beaten up by an alien. The mecha-suit only kept him from staying alive, Zack's words. So why does he move around like it's the first scene of the movie once we get to the warehouse?

 

[Sleiek]

Wow. So we are complaining about Batman's energy now?

I am speechless. Just wow.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It ain't over 9000.

 

[Predator jp]

Wow. So we are complaining about Batman's energy now?

I am speechless. Just wow.

when there's someone does not consider Batman a good person let alone hero, anything can happen.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Wow. So we are complaining about Batman's energy now?

I am speechless. Just wow.

I know, I'm done.

 

[shauner111]

Wow. So we are complaining about Batman's energy now?

I am speechless. Just wow.

It may look cool but it's not like he's not 45 years old or whatever (he could be older for all we know) with 20 years of Batman activity behind him. He's older than Bruce in the Nolanverse, that was done on purpose, and he's been Batman for longer, yet this guy looks like a million bucks and moves like he's 15 years younger. And he's built like a brickhouse. But people don't care because the fighting is amazing.

 

[Jekecy]

It may look cool but it's not like he's not 45 years old or whatever (he could be older for all we know) with 20 years of Batman activity behind him. He's older than Bruce in the Nolanverse, that was done on purpose, and he's been Batman for longer, yet this guy looks like a million bucks and moves like he's 15 years younger. And he's built like a brickhouse. But people don't care because the fighting is amazing.

Well, yeah. This ain’t exactly novel, modern comic book Batman (at least before New 52) is around the same age. The middle-aged trait was used to highlight his weariness within the job from his presumed life experiences. It’s the superhero version of a mid-life crisis. It’s no obligation to have him struggle on the physical front when there has been no reason to believe he got any weaker.

The most consistent aspect of the character since his inception is how dedicated he is to maintaining his skill-set and physicality. For how much crap Snyder got for the stuff he deviated away from, I would’ve thought he’d get his due props for at least this. But alas…

 

[Vaibow]

Adams was given crap but she makes it passable because she's a good actress. But even Amy comes off incredibly mediocre in both of these films. Even something as simple as a shot of Lois staring at a camera or a notebook comes off like she's totally aware of the camera. I don't know what it is, or maybe i do...Zack Snyder's direction. There seems to be a self-awareness with Michael Shannon, Amy Adams, Henry Cavill etc that just rubs me the wrong way. And i know it's the material and the direction.

Cavill has never impressed me. Not a good actor, at all. But he's done better outside of Superman. Im not saying every scene is bad. He has the odd scene that i like, but it's always a scene where he doesn't have dialogue and is not being directed to look angry. For example his facial expression when Martha tells him he doesn't owe this world a thing.

Gadot is another one who is fine reacting to things like shots of her at the first party, in the Wonder Woman costume, and simply reacting to those metahuman video clips. Then she opens her mouth. Great accent, very mediocre delivery. She sounds like an actress who is just starting out as an actress, well because she pretty much is.

I agree that Cavill can do better with better direction. And im positive Gadot will do better in her own movie. But right now i think the Justice League is made up of very mediocre actors. And they only look worse when you put them next to Robert Downey Jr, Chris Evans, Mark Ruffalo, Chadwick Boseman, Tom Holland, Anthony Mackie, Paul Bettany, etc.

History has shown that you can feel nothing for the character in the source material, and still deliver a great performance. I don't think it matters if Gal or Henry love the characters they're playing. It comes down to skill, good direction and solid dialogue.

I think what it is, regarding Cavill, is that the direction Snyder is taking the character, Cavill is the wrong actor.

I feel like H Jackman, C Bale can do dark and intense a lot better than Cavill. Cavill looked great in those scenes in MOS where he smiled and it was light hearted, had we gone that direction with BvS i hope, feel that fans would have been happier with his portrayal.

 

[shauner111]

Well, yeah. This ain’t exactly novel, modern comic book Batman (at least before New 52) is around the same age. The middle-aged trait was used to highlight his weariness within the job from his presumed life experiences. It’s the superhero version of a mid-life crisis. It’s no obligation to have him struggle on the physical front when there has been no reason to believe he got any weaker.

The most consistent aspect of the character since his inception is how dedicated he is to maintaining his skill-set and physicality. For how much crap Snyder got for the stuff he deviated away from, I would’ve thought he’d get his due props for at least this. But alas…

It's been said in countless interviews by Affleck and Snyder that this is an older, TIRED version of the character. He only comes off tired when he's in the public eye. Why not as Batman? He's been doing this for 20 years straight, he should be hobbling around a little bit, not as energetic, looking physically and mentally drained. Everyone likes to defend this movie by saying "this isn't Marvel boys and girls! This is a darker, more realistic tone!". Then when somebody brings up how it's unrealistic either with characterization, dialogue, or the level of CG used...suddenly people turn it around as if it's more in line with the comics if he's forever a physical specimen.

Then why have him be older? Why try to sell the idea of realism? Why go on record saying it's a much more tired version?

It's a nitpick, but i'm looking at Frank Miller's novel and thinking WHY NOT THAT!? Sometimes i feel like Zack would have been better just making an exact adaptation of Dark Knight Returns, where he tried to get every single thing right instead of BvS.