BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - Part 302

[Light]

None of that matters imo.

If they really want to bring back 'Clark Kent' (which I don't think they need to), they can. Sure, it'd be nonsensical, but such is the case with Clark's secret identity in general. They could just make a joke about it and move on.

You don't feel like they need to bring back Clark Kent? What so he should be Superman the whole time?

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

But wouldn't that make the entire ending to BvS somewhat pointless?

Regardless if it does or doesn't (I don't think so), WB shouldn't worry about damaging the brilliant story that is BvS.

 

[FunkMiller]

Do you guys think Snyder has done irreparable damage to this franchise? I have read on a number of forums people saying the damage is already done and it's to late.

Here's some of the things citied.

Killing of Clark Kent.

Making Lex aware of who Batman and Superman are.

Destroying Supermans character and personality( basically stating it would seem out of character for this Superman to start acting like his usual hopeful optimistic self).

Batman killing people feels this creates more problems as to why most of his rogue gallery are not dead. Or how will he be able to take the morale high ground with Red hood if he is ever introduced.

Damage to Pa Kent character.

Damage to Thomas Wayne character.

Etc......

Yes. It's a godawful way to set up a cinematic universe.

Kill one of your main characters right off the bat in a story beat that should have been saved for much later.
Make your other main character an unpleasant killer, and have him be at the tail end of his crime fighting career.
Have the poor villain name the other justice league members in a derogatory manner.
Create a dark, drab universe with no joy or fun in it.

Regardless of whether you like BvS or not, it's hard to see how anyone can defend it as a 'first step' in a broader, longer narrative.

 

[AndrewOz]

But wouldn't that make the entire ending to BvS somewhat pointless?

To save this franchise, they are going to have to do a lot of ret-conning/ course correcting from MoS and BvS anyway.
Personally, I believe from Tsujihara's statement when they pushed it back a year, after he'd watched the movie "many times", that WB's didn't like what they saw and took that time to try and change it, but it was too late.
If they tried to change the narrative it would at least explain some of the thematic inconsistencies in the plot and the bizarre editing.
It's acknowledged that they were already attempting to address some of the criticisms from MoS here anyway, and I see a lot of the post "Martha" scenes as an attempt to retcon the first part of the movie.
It's a very bizarre choice, for instance, to have your most successful character appear, devoid of almost all of the character traits that made him popular for 98% of the movie, then give him a couple of lines at a grave to make it seem that from now on and in the next movie(s), he's going to go back to the popular incarnation.
Immediately followed by a scene where he's straight back to his old ways .
It would explain why a common criticism is is that the movie couldn't decide what it wanted to be.

Has there been any news about how JL is going, beyond workout pic tweets?

 

[AndrewOz]

Yes. It's a godawful way to set up a cinematic universe.

Kill one of your main characters right off the bat in a story beat that should have been saved for much later.
Make your other main character an unpleasant killer, and have him be at the tail end of his crime fighting career.
Have the poor villain name the other justice league members in a derogatory manner.
Create a dark, drab universe with no joy or fun in it.

Regardless of whether you like BvS or not, it's hard to see how anyone can defend it as a 'first step' in a broader, longer narrative.

 

[Martha]

To save this franchise, they are going to have to do a lot of ret-conning/ course correcting from MoS and BvS anyway.
Personally, I believe from Tsujihara's statement when they pushed it back a year, after he'd watched the movie "many times", that WB's didn't like what they saw and took that time to try and change it, but it was too late.
If they tried to change the narrative it would at least explain some of the thematic inconsistencies in the plot and the bizarre editing.
It's acknowledged that they were already attempting to address some of the criticisms from MoS here anyway, and I see a lot of the post "Martha" scenes as an attempt to retcon the first part of the movie.
It's a very bizarre choice, for instance, to have your most successful character appear, devoid of almost all of the character traits that made him popular for 98% of the movie, then give him a couple of lines at a grave to make it seem that from now on and in the next movie(s), he's going to go back to the popular incarnation.
Immediately followed by a scene where he's straight back to his old ways .
It would explain why a common criticism is is that the movie couldn't decide what it wanted to be.

Has there been any news about how JL is going, beyond workout pic tweets?

Great points ... didn't even think about how the end of the movie was trying to undo everything from the first 3/4ths of it.

And as for how it's going, reports are going around that Snyder is in London working on the film, but is getting a lot of heat from Burbank. Rumors of in-fighting between Snyder and studio execs.

I did see a post at another website (which I'm not going to link to, but you can PM if you wish) where a guy claims he works at WB and that they're in full panic mode. Other, non-DCEU projects are being cancelled due to the underwhelming box office numbers from BvS. Allegedly, the studio is angriest at Chris Nolan for not fulfilling his QC/mentoring duties. Could just be someone stirring up rumors, however.

 

[Jaxon]

You don't feel like they need to bring back Clark Kent? What so he should be Superman the whole time?

It's hard to justify him not being Superman by ignoring that calling and having a 12hr day at work then try and spend quality time with his chick after work. It doesn't make sense. Making Clark dead gives Superman a chance to lead the JL and be involved in government and military stuff.

 

[matt47]

Honestly. I think I'd be okay without seeing the JLs identities in the movie. At least not batman ww and supes

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Immediately followed by a scene where he's straight back to his old ways .

Going back to his old ways would have been if he branded Luthor, but he didn't.

 

[Reek]

How old is Bruce in BvS? I ask cause it shows his parents died in 81... I always thought he was 10? so he'd be 45

 

[jmc]

Great points ... didn't even think about how the end of the movie was trying to undo everything from the first 3/4ths of it.

And as for how it's going, reports are going around that Snyder is in London working on the film, but is getting a lot of heat from Burbank. Rumors of in-fighting between Snyder and studio execs.

I did see a post at another website (which I'm not going to link to, but you can PM if you wish) where a guy claims he works at WB and that they're in full panic mode. Other, non-DCEU projects are being cancelled due to the underwhelming box office numbers from BvS. Allegedly, the studio is angriest at Chris Nolan for not fulfilling his QC/mentoring duties. Could just be someone stirring up rumors, however.

How they hell are they passing the blame onto Nolan? He was finished with superheroes after TDKR.

 

[AnneFan]

Going back to his old ways would have been if he branded Luthor, but he didn't.

But Batman doesn't have a character arc in this bro. Just say everything sucks and you'll fit in fine here.

 

[Light]

It's hard to justify him not being Superman by ignoring that calling and having a 12hr day at work then try and spend quality time with his chick after work. It doesn't make sense. Making Clark dead gives Superman a chance to lead the JL and be involved in government and military stuff.

This Superman is already miserable enough without stripping him of who he essentially is. They should have never killed of Clark Kent, a better thing for them to have done was have an article in the paper saying Clark Kent was missing and presumed dead as opposed to having a funeral for him with his body on display. You can explain how Superman comes back because he is a super powered alien that does near impossible fears daily but how do you explain the rebirth of Clark Kent whose body people witnessed being buried.

 

[AndrewOz]

Great points ... didn't even think about how the end of the movie was trying to undo everything from the first 3/4ths of it.

And as for how it's going, reports are going around that Snyder is in London working on the film, but is getting a lot of heat from Burbank. Rumors of in-fighting between Snyder and studio execs.

I did see a post at another website (which I'm not going to link to, but you can PM if you wish) where a guy claims he works at WB and that they're in full panic mode. Other, non-DCEU projects are being cancelled due to the underwhelming box office numbers from BvS. Allegedly, the studio is angriest at Chris Nolan for not fulfilling his QC/mentoring duties. Could just be someone stirring up rumors, however.

Thanks. For all the attention the Martha moment has gotten as the trigger for Batman's abrupt reversal of character, which (if you accept it) explains why he feels guilty and wants to team up, there's not much examination of why Superman would suddenly change his ideological position to entrust Bruce with the rescue of his mother.
What changed on his side of the equation?

Thanks for the update too. It makes sense that they were cancelling smaller projects. They don't have anything like the money they thought they'd have from BvS and have not exactly filled their bank accounts in 2015.
I've seen the Birth.Movies.Death reports, I was looking for more official material, reports/interviews from the shoot etc.
I thought the WB PR machine would be working overtime by now to show how happy and committed and joyful the creative team were, if only to stave off these types of rumours.
It doesn't take much to imagine there's conflict between Snyder and WB ATM, though.
It does surprise me that Johns' is reportedly taken aback by the reception, given that his body of work has been largely devoted to restoring the characterisations and inherent nobility of the bronze age into continuity.
WB can't afford for the JL to replicate the reception of BvS, so if Zack keeps wanting to go the deconstruction/mired in misery and cynicism route, then he might be next to go due to "creative differences"
Fingers crossed.

 

[Light]

Thanks. For all the attention the Martha moment has gotten as the trigger for Batman's abrupt reversal of character, which (if you accept it) explains why he feels guilty and wants to team up, there's not much examination of why Superman would suddenly change his ideological position to entrust Bruce with the rescue of his mother.
What changed on his side of the equation?

Thanks for the update too. I've seen the Birth.Movies.Death reports, I was looking for more official material, reports/interviews from the shoot etc.
I thought the WB PR machine would be working overtime by now to show how happy and committed and joyful the creative team were, if only to stave off these types of rumours.
It doesn't take much to imagine there's conflict between Snyder and WB ATM, though.
It does surprise me that Johns' is reportedly taken aback by the reception, given that his body of work has been largely devoted to restoring the characterisations and inherent nobility of the bronze age into continuity.
WB can't afford for the JL to replicate the reception of BvS, so if Zack keeps wanting to go the deconstruction/mired in misery and cynicism route, then he might be next to go due to "creative differences"
Fingers crossed

Well in truth Superman could have gone and saved Martha and then went to visit Lex all in a span of a few minutes. There was no need to depend on Batman to do any rescuing, a more plausible scenario was to have Doomsday on the lose and terrorising and killing civilians and that way Superman had to act immediately.

 

[AndrewOz]

But Batman doesn't have a character arc in this bro. Just say everything sucks and you'll fit in fine here.

Going back to his old ways would have been if he branded Luthor, but he didn't.

Going back to his old ways is going to all the effort of setting up the confrontation and charging up to Lex with his Bat-brand in his fist and holding it up to his face.
Why was he poised to strike, using the very methodology that caused Superman to condemn him in the first place?
If he wasn't there to brand Luthor, what was the point of going there with it all?

If he'd changed his ways, he would not have that ridiculous thing at all.
Unless he took it just to decorate Luthor's cell.
Which would be moronic.

Lex stopped him by reminding him Superman is dead. The same way Superman stopped him by reminding him his mother is dead.

Batman does have a character arc all right. A very, very poor one.
Where his own memory is now his special form of Bat-Kryptonite.

 

[AnneFan]

Batman has been set in this cruel viewpoint for a couple of years now. Since Superman arrived. He just doesn't turn it off like a switch. It's a mental battle, with him summoning the willpower to ultimately decide against using the brand, when in the past he didn't have that voice at the back of his head saying "maybe this isn't the right thing to do." It's about learning to be a better man.

 

[GreenKToo]

It seems to me that WB was hoping to catch lightning in a bottle again with BvS like they did with TDK trilogy, ie, Ubber serious, dark, etc etc.
Thing is tho, you CAN'T have it like that with a character like Superman in it.

Sure, WB can re-invent the wheel if they want to, but it's gonna go flat in the long run.

From my perspective, it seems like we have a case of to many cooks in the kitchen, with no clear vision of how they want to proceed or how they even want the characters to behave.

''Superman is lame, so lets make him dark and brooding, that boyscout stuff is stupid''
''Batman needs to kill, because that's like kool''
''No one would buy a hunky, intelligent Lex that seems threatening, so lets make him have daddy issues and appear weak as a kitten''

I'm kidding of course but that's probably not far off on how it went.

 

[Martha]

How they hell are they passing the blame onto Nolan? He was finished with superheroes after TDKR.

The "leaker" claims that Nolan was supposed to be a mentor to Snyder and serve in a quality control capacity, but that Nolan never said "No" to any of Snyder's ideas (or at least, he did, but Snyder didn't take him seriously enough). They were banking on Nolan reining Snyder in, but Nolan was apathetic. The studio is also angry because he got 90% through negotiations for an Akira film, and then welshed at the last second to do Dunkirk which, guy from WB claims, isn't even that good of a script.

He said/she said, but there may be truth to it.

 

[Jumpman]

The "leaker" claims that Nolan was supposed to be a mentor to Snyder and serve in a quality control capacity, but that Nolan never said "No" to any of Snyder's ideas (or at least, he did, but Snyder didn't take him seriously enough). They were banking on Nolan reining Snyder in, but Nolan was apathetic. The studio is also angry because he got 90% through negotiations for an Akira film, and then welshed at the last second to do Dunkirk which, guy from WB claims, isn't even that good of a script.

He said/she said, but there may be truth to it.

Why would they think Nolan would reign in Snyder? That dude is all about filmmaker's visions. He was gonna let Snyder make the film he wanted to make. Do they not know who Christopher Nolan is?

Yeah, they lean in hard on what Nolan did with the DARK KNIGHT TRILOGY not really realizing that Nolan didn't really make Batman films. He made James Bond films that featured Batman.

 

[Bebop Cowboy]

I was thinking maybe Martin Campbell(Goldeneye, Mask of Zorro), could be a good go to for Justice League. He has simple yet very entertaining films that hit all the right notes, are fun, good natured and would fit Superman pretty well. Those two films dealt with basically superheroes so he knows the genre.

 

[FunkMiller]

The "leaker" claims that Nolan was supposed to be a mentor to Snyder and serve in a quality control capacity, but that Nolan never said "No" to any of Snyder's ideas (or at least, he did, but Snyder didn't take him seriously enough). They were banking on Nolan reining Snyder in, but Nolan was apathetic. The studio is also angry because he got 90% through negotiations for an Akira film, and then welshed at the last second to do Dunkirk which, guy from WB claims, isn't even that good of a script.

He said/she said, but there may be truth to it.

Sounds like utter **** to me. Nolan did indeed say no to a lot of Snyder's ideas, but Snyder completely ignored him. Nolan hated the neck snap and didn't like where Snyder was taking the character, but Snyder didn't want to take his advice.

If that's the case, would you want to stick around and try to play nice with someone like that? This can't be put on Nolan's shoulders. He delivered a vastly popular and successful franchise. If WB had wanted him to retain control, they should have put Snyder in his place and backed Nolan more. This cluster**** is of their own making.

 

[GreenKToo]

One thing is for sure, we KNOW what we're gonna get with Snyder directing JL. BvS 2.0.

 

[kaneluan06]

I was thinking maybe Martin Campbell(Goldeneye, Mask of Zorro), could be a good go to for Justice League. He has simple yet very entertaining films that hit all the right notes, are fun, good natured and would fit Superman pretty well. Those two films dealt with basically superheroes so he knows the genre.

He directed green lantern. See how well that turned out to be

 

[Bebop Cowboy]

He directed green lantern. See how well that turned out to be

Did he? Oh never mind then....