BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - Part 302

[samsnee]

Nevermind

 

[Lily Adler]

Oh god, when is the ultimate cut coming out?!

WB will release it in theaters, after Civil War to show them who's boss.

 

[Timebomb]

Nevermind

This was classic.

 

[AndrewOz]

I agree, he looked like a human underwater, which isn't strange since they just put the actor underwater. I expected the shot to make it seem effortless, just like how they do with flying characters that don't look like they get bothered by high speed wind in their eyes. I got attacked for that opinion a month ago though. Apparently it was "being a hater".

I love how applying any sort of test of realism to a property that markets itself as gritty and realistic is labelled "hate" by the fundamentalists.

 

[AndrewOz]

By Snyder's own admission, Nolan advised him against both killing Zod and Superman's death.

Nolan also told him that you only get to borrow these characters, after you're gone someone else will continue with them, so I personally think Zack is deliberately poisoning the well for future directors.
He wanted TDKR, he wanted DoS, so he's ensured with this no-one can do those in the DCEU without a reboot.
He's killing or ruining any character he doesn't want as well.
As to him being a fan, I used to believe that (he did a pretty faithful 300, a Watchmen that really enjoyed although he did seem to miss the overall point with his Ozzy), but after what he's said about his "bible" TDKR, I don't believe he read it at all, just looked at the pictures and made up his own story in head, which has spewed out as BvS.
The only mistake the studio likely made is trusting him with it too much.
Don't forget, after they saw it the pulled it from summer 2015 and pushed it back, dropping it onto what they thought was a release date for a minor Marvel ancillary character.
I saw that as a cynical attempt to score an easy victory over the competition by virtue of brand recognition alone.
The fact that they blinked and moved it again when the found out it was CA:CW instead reinforces that for me.
With that and what Tsujihara said about pulling it being best for the movie and best for the DCEU,after watching it "many many times and again last night" convinces me that the studio weren't interfering with him, they were genuinely surprised by what Zack delivered. And not happy. If they were happy, it would have been out a year ago.
A year of trying to turn /edit it into a different product would not have helped the coherence of it's narrative, so that also makes me think when Snyder showed this off to WB execs, the reaction was akin to coming home and finding the friendly stray you'd taken into your mansion has laid a mountainous pile liquid excrement all over your priceless Persian rug, planned for museum display next week as it had once belonged to Xerxes (the one with all the body piercings, natch).
And the damn mutt is sitting there all happy and wagging his tail like he's expecting you to admire it.

Addendum: I forgot to say I think Nolan was saying that in exasperation and what he meant was "fine, f@€k it up as much as you like, someone will come along and undo the damage like I did with Schumacher. You ar$e".

 

[Timebomb]

Over at Superhero News they are reporting a second source that has heard about the tension between Snyder and WB, so it's just not Devin. However, the denial about BVS is pretty thick over in that neck of the woods. Sorry, I can't paste the link.

 

[samsnee]

It's likely that DC wants something less dark and Snyder standing his ground.

 

[BatLobster]

@AndrewOz, technically they pushed the film back before they started filming, the first time anyway. I think the main reason for that was they were trying to get their ducks in a row for all the other DCEU stuff they were planning.

Truthfully, I think it's very easy for execs to fall into a situation where they're not be able to see the forest from the trees when it comes to the quality of what they have.

With Man of Steel for instance, WB probably thought they had a massive hit on their hands. "People loved the dark and serious tone of Nolan's Batman films, people loved the crazy city-destroying climax of The Avengers, this movie puts it all into one package!" On paper, it looked like a slam dunk.

The funny thing about the process of making a movie is you really don't quite know what you have until fresh eyes that had nothing to do with making it have seen it. Though, I'm sure in this case that by the time the film was completed there were execs that were worried, like Drew McWeeny reported.

 

[AndrewOz]

Im currently re watching The Avengers and it just made me think:

The rationale for Thor fighting Iron Man/Cap is as stupid to me as Batman and Superman fighting in BvS

The main difference is that the Thor vs Iron Man/Cap fight isn't as important of the film

It's classic comic book let's-have-a-meaningless-fight-over-a-stupid-misunderstanding-that-will-not-hurt-anyone-and-will-be-over-as-soon-as-it-starts-with-no-hard-feelings.
It was a farcical trope poking fun at itself as evidenced by the shot of Loki looking on bemused.
As MovieBob points out, there is a narrative purpose also being served there that imparts crucial information almost subliminally about relative powers in a rock-paper-scissors way as well.
Plus, they weren't trying to establish a grounded-in-gritty-realism deep and meaningful rationale over nearly 2hours as to why one would spend 2years carefully planning the murder of the other either.
So there's that.
The Avengers was a fun team bonding action romp that was mostly lighthearted with occasional serious themes.

BvS was a takes-itself-so-seriously-I-can-hear-the-aneurism-throbbing-from -over-here combination of existential crisis/allegorical examination of what would happen if 3 very powerful individuals, all afflicted with serious mental illness, decided they didn't like each other enough that at least 2 of them decided murder was their only viable option.
Including the one who's most defining character traits are: never commits murder and can be shot, stabbed, beaten, bludgeoned, have his adopted progeny murdered and crippled, his back broken-yet never breaks his code or his spirit.
Then BvS uses a magic word resolution to turn it into a team bonding action romp, almost in utter repudiation of the previous 2hrs.

In Avengers, we're meant to laugh at the (comic book in-joke) stupidity of the conflict (as well as "doth Mother (Martha?) know you weareth her Drapes? -now I'm reimagining the Batmobile confrontation with Batman asking that instead of "do you bleed")), but because of the marketing of BvS and the statements of its director., we're laughing at the absurdity of it.

Or, if you are truly a lifelong DC fan, crying at it.
I watched Civil War last night so I'm still feeling a bit emotional. I actually started tearing up half an hour in, not because of the moment on the screen (which was a funeral-not for any of the main characters), but because I felt I was watching them bury my hopes for and expectations for what BvS could have been.
If you haven't seen it and you're unhappy with BvS, all I can say is that it is a great movie, plus it changed my feelings on BvS, from primarily anger to sadness over what could have been.

 

[Limonade]

@AndrewOz, technically they pushed the film back before they started filming, the first time anyway. I think the main reason for that was they were trying to get their ducks in a row for all the other DCEU stuff they were planning.

Truthfully, I think it's very easy for execs to fall into a situation where they're not be able to see the forest from the trees when it comes to the quality of what they have.

With Man of Steel for instance, WB probably thought they had a massive hit on their hands. "People loved the dark and serious tone of Nolan's Batman films, people loved the crazy city-destroying climax of The Avengers, this movie puts it all into one package!" On paper, it looked like a slam dunk.

The funny thing about the process of making a movie is you really don't quite know what you have until fresh eyes that had nothing to do with making it have seen it. Though, I'm sure in this case that by the time the film was completed there were execs that were worried, like Drew McWeeny reported.

McWeeny.

Sucks that people gave him so much crap about the rumors of BvS. Especially since he was on point on his reports at the time.

 

[AndrewOz]

@AndrewOz, technically they pushed the film back before they started filming, the first time anyway. I think the main reason for that was they were trying to get their ducks in a row for all the other DCEU stuff they were planning.

Truthfully, I think it's very easy for execs to fall into a situation where they're not be able to see the forest from the trees when it comes to the quality of what they have.

With Man of Steel for instance, WB probably thought they had a massive hit on their hands. "People loved the dark and serious tone of Nolan's Batman films, people loved the crazy city-destroying climax of The Avengers, this movie puts it all into one package!" On paper, it looked like a slam dunk.

The funny thing about the process of making a movie is you really don't quite know what you have until fresh eyes that had nothing to do with making it have seen it. Though, I'm sure in this case that by the time the film was completed there were execs that were worried, like Drew McWeeny reported.

Yeah, it's always easy to play the supposition game in hindsight, which is what I'm doing. I'm just trying to rationalise it out in a way that makes sense in my own head, like the rest of us.
On paper it seems like an impossibility to make a movie this expensive with the trinity no less, that is not an unequivocal box office smash.
I'm sure any execs with concerns though were told by Snyder and co. this is for the fans. The fans will understand and love it. He is a comic book guy after all.
After 2swings and 2 misses, they must be concluding by now that he isn't really a comic book guy at all. Or a very niche one at best.

 

[AndrewOz]

I agree, it was. They're both dumb and murderous.

You forgot suffering from mental illness as well.

 

[Frodo]

McWeeny.

Sucks that people gave him so much crap about the rumors of BvS. Especially since he was on point on his reports at the time.

I was skeptical of him at the time , but the guy was really on point. I can clearly see why the execs were so nervous from the test screenings. If the test audiences reaction's were anything like the audience I saw it with, then they had reason to sweat.

 

[AndrewOz]

Caused by Loki's

But okay they werent buddies. BUt they did seem cordial in the scene right after the fight. "No hard feelings Point Break"

Yeah, that's cordial, rather than mocking and confrontational.
Read my post#434 if you want an explanation of how I see the fundamental differences.

But yes, you are correct in that they are both stupid conflicts, one is just intentionally so and still manages to use the scene constructively.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, it's always easy to play the supposition game in hindsight, which is what I'm doing. I'm just trying to rationalise it out in a way that makes sense in my own head, like the rest of us.
On paper it seems like an impossibility to make a movie this expensive with the trinity no less, that is not an unequivocal box office smash.
I'm sure any execs with concerns though were told by Snyder and co. this is for the fans. The fans will understand and love it. He is a comic book guy after all.
After 2swings and 2 misses, they must be concluding by now that he isn't really a comic book guy at all. Or a very niche one at best.

I think that's exactly it. They probably were assured that all the "fan service" would smooth everything over and translate to good buzz.

 

[Lencho01]

The whole fan thing is hard for me to buy since anyone with any understanding of it would know fan numbers are fairly small and Hollywood has shown that yeah, it's good to make something fans can enjoy, but it has to be accessible to the general audience. This film has issues with both groups.

 

[AndrewOz]

http://i.imgur.com/AjjMLst.jpg

 

[Dopinder]

"I'm a comic book guy."

-Zack Snyder

 

[Jaxon]

Over at Superhero News they are reporting a second source that has heard about the tension between Snyder and WB, so it's just not Devin. However, the denial about BVS is pretty thick over in that neck of the woods. Sorry, I can't paste the link.

They'll be people just pasting this stuff for the next 18 months, unless they come out with specifics like "Snyder has been told to make the tone more like Marvel" then you can just wipe it off as someone pushing an opinion and hoping it comes true to go "told you so." It's cheap journalism, as it can never be disproven, it can only be proven or not disproven....if that makes sense

 

[AndrewOz]

BvS character arc summary:

 

[AndrewOz]

They'll be people just pasting this stuff for the next 18 months, unless they come out with specifics like "Snyder has been told to make the tone more like Marvel" then you can just wipe it off as someone pushing an opinion and hoping it comes true to go "told you so." It's cheap journalism, as it can never be disproven, it can only be proven or not disproven....if that makes sense

Yeah it makes and yes, you cannot disprove the existence of anything, only point to it's absence at a particular locus of space-time, but it is wish fulfillment for many here.

However, my preference would be a statement "Snyder has been told to make the tone and characters more like DC"

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Did I just read that some one thinks Zack Snyder went out of his way to deliberately "poison the well" for future film makers? Did I just actually read that? Was that supposed to be serious minded analysis?



Great Rao...

 

[AndrewOz]

It's likely that DC wants something less dark and Snyder standing his ground.

Dark is fine. I like dark. I just expect my heroes to be, well, heroic.
Donner is a bit too camp for my tastes as was SR, although that was hampered by trying to be a sequel to the originals and continue on in the tradition of Donner.

Hell, for all of the absurdities in Smallville (Kryptonite turns humans into X-Men, Kryptonians can possess human hosts and give them powers, Kryptonian objects can confer super powers etc), it was often much darker than anything Snyder has done.
Hell, remember when Clark killed Jonathon and Martha's unborn miracle baby?

What's Snyder done in comparison, other than have every major character in varying degrees of depression or other mental illness?

Other than having Kal snap Zod's neck to stop him murdering civilians.

I'm hoping that they are just saying they want something coherent, that stands up to basic logical scrutiny, but most of all, contains actual heroes.
That stand for something.
That are inspirational.
That can generally set a good example.
Like they do in the proper, established (although about to ret-conned yet again) DCU.
God I hope they aren't going to try and amalgamate the DCEU and DCU and turn the comics into the Snyderverse.
That wouldn't last a year before the next Crisis.

 

[Orba]

Hell, for all of the absurdities in Smallville (Kryptonite turns humans into X-Men, Kryptonians can possess human hosts and give them powers, Kryptonian objects can confer super powers etc), it was often much darker than anything Snyder has done.
Hell, remember when Clark killed Jonathon and Martha's unborn miracle baby?

Snyder would like Smallville's Lana, the version that stalks people, has people kidnapped (with a bear trap attacked to their arm), learns techniques in resisting torture so she can be Clark's perfect GF, has a better relationship with Clark's evil doppleganger than with Clank, and is just a completely unbalanced nutjob. I could see him really being into her.

 

[AndrewOz]

Did I just read that some one thinks Zack Snyder went out of his way to deliberately "poison the well" for future film makers? Did I just actually read that? Was that supposed to be serious minded analysis?



Great Rao...

Yes you did read that.
I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Not in the way that he's deliberately trying to ruin the properties (although he seems to be doing a pretty good job at ruining the DCEU's potential so far) or deliberately sabotaging other directors chances of success, but he is limiting their options.

He's deliberately taking advantage of his position to eliminate the possibility of people using characters or stories that he does not think fit into his vision of the DCEU.
Remember his justification for killing of Jimmy? I don't see a place or purpose for him, so I thought I'd have some fun with him. BvS means no-one can make a MoS2 that shows a relationship between Superman and Jimmy, or a relationship between Clark and anybody really.

That theory makes more sense than Snyder claiming his Batman is different from Tim Burton who invented the whole no-killing thing, his Batman is referencing TDKR "where Batman kills all the time".

Or are we meant to believe this disaster was an accidental misunderstanding?

Like the killing of Jimmy Olsen.
The killing of Mercy.
The killing of Zod.
The criminal waste of the storyline for DoS and TDKR.
Portraying Bruce Wayne as Lex Luthor.
Portraying Lex Luthor as a cross between Renfield/Nigma/Joker.
Killing Clark Kent.

He's systematically eliminating the possibility of other directors using these characters or the comic book story arcs he's borrowed from.
He's eliminated comic book story arcs or even original ideas that use these characters.
He's trying to stamp his own vision of where they can go in the DCEU by eliminating options he doesn't want to see.
The only way to use Clark or Jimmy is a ret-con that undoes his work in BvS,
which could be seen as an embarrassing invalidation of the concept of the DCEU, or abandon this DCEU and start again from scratch, using a Crisis event or just a plain reboot.

Where am I wrong? Or is your analysis limited to invoking the name of the killer of New 52 Superman in defense of the cinematic murderer of the 75yr old legacy of the character and all that he is supposed to stand for?