BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - Part 305

[wnjcwjkk]

There's all kinds of references in the dialouge, to Batman's history (Phantasm) and different literary sources.

Anybody have insight into what Alfred was saying into the voice modulater in his first scene, and if that's a reference? Sounds like "Fluffer fairy bubble bath" lol. I'm assuming it's one of those exercises Broadway actors do to warm up their voice before performance. Maybe it was Irons' idea, something he used to say or heard. But also, with the different layers and clues to people's past in their dialouge, it could have been a reference to Alfred's past as a stage performer. Great dialouge in the film, really well thought out, for the most part

 

[Sleiek]

Daredevil and his chain disagrees. t:
[YT]Q0CvkiPS5Ks[/YT]

Nope. As much as I love Netflix's Daredevil, Batgod is still Batgod.

The warehouse fight scene is THE greatest on my list in recent memory.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Netflix's DareDevil might be my favorite thing Marvel's done (obviously, I prefer the more gritty, grounded stories). Ever since I got into Sopranos, then Lost, The Wire, Breaking Bad, etc. I have felt like series have so much more potential than films, because they can really take their time, there's a lot of character and plot development, they can get really detailed, even go off on tangents to explore the minor plot threads. I feel it's more impactful when something big happens in a series, a character death, big twist, cliffhanger, etc. They can really fully explore a character in depth.

Marvel was smart to capitalize on this with DD and the other shows. It really fleshes out the Universe, and is an opportunity to include other characters, who may not have gotten a chance in a film, or who may could show up in a later film. I wish DC would follow suit, with shows connected to the DCEU, I'm not a big fan of the DC TV Universe, not saying it's bad, it just doesn't interest me. But I'd love a quality series that fleshes out the DCEU more, that could explore the public perception of these heroes, the smaller ramifications and ripples from the major events, what it's like for the civilians and human beings who have to inhabit Metropolis or Gotham, etc. Like, one of the things that really stood out to me in DD was how Kingpin was capitalizing on all the government contracts that came with rebuilding the city after the Avengers battle. And then, after so much development, how cool would it be if DareDevil showed up unexpectedly in the Marvel films.

I'd especially love it if they went with HBO, who has consistently high quality series, like a Gotham Central show on par with True Detective and The Wire, or a Nightwing show on par with DareDevil. There's so many characters that could be explored, who may not have time to show up in the movies.

 

[idiot09]

Netflix's DareDevil might be my favorite thing Marvel's done (obviously, I prefer the more gritty, grounded stories). Ever since I got into Sopranos, then Lost, The Wire, Breaking Bad, etc. I have felt like series have so much more potential than films, because they can really take their time, there's a lot of character and plot development, they can get really detailed, even go off on tangents to explore the minor plot threads. I feel it's more impactful when something big happens in a series, a character death, big twist, cliffhanger, etc. They can really fully explore a character in depth.

Marvel was smart to capitalize on this with DD and the other shows. It really fleshes out the Universe, and is an opportunity to include other characters, who may not have gotten a chance in a film, or who may could show up in a later film. I wish DC would follow suit, with shows connected to the DCEU, I'm not a big fan of the DC TV Universe, not saying it's bad, it just doesn't interest me. But I'd love a quality series that fleshes out the DCEU more, that could explore the public perception of these heroes, the smaller ramifications and ripples from the major events, what it's like for the civilians and human beings who have to inhabit Metropolis or Gotham, etc. Like, one of the things that really stood out to me in DD was how Kingpin was capitalizing on all the government contracts that came with rebuilding the city after the Avengers battle. And then, after so much development, how cool would it be if DareDevil showed up unexpectedly in the Marvel films.

I'd especially love it if they went with HBO, who has consistently high quality series, like a Gotham Central show on par with True Detective and The Wire, or a Nightwing show on par with DareDevil. There's so many characters that could be explored, who may not have time to show up in the movies.

I like your taste man.For me Daredevil is also my favourite Marvel thing right now.I also liked shows like Breaking Bad,Wire etc.Gotta start watching the sopranos.

 

[Whatupman]

Nope. As much as I love Netflix's Daredevil, Batgod is still Batgod.

The warehouse fight scene is THE greatest on my list in recent memory.

Agree to disagree then. But Batfleck was a beast, and that warehouse fight scene was fantastic. Easily the best Batman fight scene put to screen yet. I'm really looking forward to Affleck's Batman movie. It's gonna be interesting to see how he directs fight scenes, I don't think he's had one in his previous movies.

 

[Naked Shia]

It's funny that people say that Batman have to kill in BvS, otherwise it would be too cartoony and it wouldn't be believable. It's more adult, gritty and real for Batman to kill. But then we have Daredevil's netflix series, which is undoubtedly more adult, gritty and feels more real than BvS. And it's definitely less cartoony. Yet ... Daredevil is no killer. As a matter of fact, in season 2, he tries to stop the Punisher because he do kill criminals. But I guess Daredevil is simply more capable than Batman in this universe.

Funnily enough, when Ben Affleck played Daredevil, he was a killer too. That movie wasn't adult either.

If you want your point to be valid, you should use context. Most of the deaths in BvS happen during scene where he uses the batmobile. I don't remember Daredevil being in a car chase....

 

[Whatupman]

If you want your point to be valid, you should use context. Most of the deaths in BvS happen during scene where he uses the batmobile. I don't remember Daredevil being in a car chase....

But you said it yourself, most of the deaths, meaning not all. And Daredevil is not much of a driver. I don't know why, maybe it's the blindness thing, but now I'm just spitballing.

 

[Naked Shia]

But you said it yourself, most of the deaths, meaning not all. And Daredevil is not much of a driver. I don't know why, maybe it's the blindness thing, but now I'm just spitballing.

so you agree, if Daredevil was to drive, he would probably kill lots of people is what you're saying, thanks for agreeing with my point

 

[Whatupman]

so you agree, if Daredevil was to drive, he would probably kill lots of people is what you're saying, thanks for agreeing with my point

If Daredevil were to drive in his current condition, oh yeah, he would probably kill lots of people.

 

[souperman]

Snyder confirmed on the behind the scenes featurette that Batman doesn't get a boost from his armor. Does that bring up his stats?

Superman remained superhuman throughout their fight. No man can withstand crashing through a roof and having a man with hundreds of pounds of armor on land on top of you. He was also hovering at one point in the fight before his strength was restored, so it's safe to say that Batman was battering someone with superhuman strength with no enhancements to his own strength.

I heard that too,...but watching the film, they must have been pretty liberal with the CBM physics because Batman is SUPER strong in the armor scenes.

He "jumps" about 5 feet in the air ( with about 150 pounds of steel armor) to land on top of Supes,- rides him to the ground and doesn't fall over when hitting the ground!

He is also able to swing a 200 pound plus man of steel around by a string...

a little beyond the capabilities of mortal man.

I think he must have had batteries under that cape or something...

 

[souperman]

I like your taste man.For me Daredevil is also my favourite Marvel thing right now.I also liked shows like Breaking Bad,Wire etc.Gotta start watching the sopranos.

Sopranos was great.

DareDevil, Breaking Bad, great. Try Bloodline and House of Cards too.

 

[morningmimosa]

I love Daredevil, but c'mon ... there were definitly casualties when he fought with that chain.

 

[Naked Shia]

I love Daredevil, but c'mon ... there were definitly casualties when he fought with that chain.

Also, burning up a dude is kinda lethal... even he was surprised when said dude came back from the dead in season 2.

 

[souperman]

Also, burning up a dude is kinda lethal... even he was surprised when said dude came back from the dead in season 2.

...remember movie/TV logic and entertainment rules for killing...

 

[gdw]

Also, burning up a dude is kinda lethal... even he was surprised when said dude came back from the dead in season 2.

I always assumed DD's no kill rule was a little less absolute than Batman's. That is, DD, I always assumed, was OK if he considered it an absolute necessity for self defense, but would still be haunted by such actions. Whereas Batman does not believe in such situations, essentially. He's trained himself to be better than having to fall back on lethal action.

Any situation in which Bruce felt he had no other non-lethal options would be viewed as a failure on his part. That is to say, he never should/would have let the situation get to that point in the first place.

Also, DD has shown, in the comics, no problem with turning his back on a villain as they commit suicide. Not something I see Batman doing, though who knows, he may have in the books at some point.


Any who, it's funny how, not only was the Affleck DD a killer, but they attempted to do the exact same redemption arc to address the "no kill" idea that they did with him in BvS.

Of course, WB and Snyder just completely ignored the lesson they should have learned second hand from Marvel NAILING the question of killing in the first (and revisited in the second) season of the Netflix DD.

Seriously, after the DD movie, juxtaposed with the DD TV series, I am truly dumbfounded that they managed to repeat the mistake of a murderous Affleck played vigilante. Even I actually defended the decision in the DD movie, but completely changed my tune after the series.

 

[gdw]

Snyder confirmed on the behind the scenes featurette that Batman doesn't get a boost from his armor. Does that bring up his stats?

Superman remained superhuman throughout their fight. No man can withstand crashing through a roof and having a man with hundreds of pounds of armor on land on top of you. He was also hovering at one point in the fight before his strength was restored, so it's safe to say that Batman was battering someone with superhuman strength with no enhancements to his own strength.

That's fascinating, especially considering the force comparisons they released for one of Batman's punches. There's no way a normal human could pack that much force into a single blow without enhancements.

 

[The Joker]

If you want your point to be valid, you should use context. Most of the deaths in BvS happen during scene where he uses the batmobile. I don't remember Daredevil being in a car chase....

That's like saying Punisher makes most of his kills with guns, so it's not the same thing. Murder is murder. It doesn't matter what was used to do the killing, whether it's a weapon, a vehicle, or using their bare hands.

If Daredevil were to drive in his current condition, oh yeah, he would probably kill lots of people.

ZING!

 

[idiot09]

Also, DD has shown, in the comics, no problem with turning his back on a villain as they commit suicide. Not something I see Batman doing, though who knows, he may have in the books at some point.

Didnt Batman just walk away from that corrupt policeman killing himself in TDKR?I dont remember if it happened in the comic but that happened in the movie.Although you may argue that it was not intentional.

For me he already killed when it was absolutely necessary that was saving that kid and the whole "I believe you" thing...I do think the film would have benefitted if it was more strict with the killing,only when its very very necessary.

 

[gdw]

Didnt Batman just walk away from that corrupt policeman killing himself in TDKR?I dont remember if it happened in the comic but that happened in the movie.Although you may argue that it was not intentional.

For me he already killed when it was absolutely necessary that was saving that kid and the whole "I believe you" thing...I do think the film would have benefitted if it was more strict with the killing,only when its very very necessary.

I'll have to double check the book, but yeah, if I recall the animated adaptation had Batman actually put the gun on the desk before walking away.

The "I believe you" bit is the only part of the story that I found was not explicit one way or the other. Miller has stated that TDKR Batman does NOT kill, and did not kill in the book. Also, well after that scene, Batman, within the book, explicitly states that he does not, and has not, killed. That's the entire thesis of the story with the Joker in TDKR.

Unless TDKR Bruce is delusional (beyond what we already accept,) and just believes he did not kill the Mutant, or is telling himself "I don't kill, except that one time with the Mutant," I think we have to assume that he did NOT kill the Mutant in that scene.

It's still disappointing though, as, if it's supposed to be Batman working his way out of a "no win" scenario, then Miller completely fails to show how he actually wins the no win scenario. OR, Batman just fails in the no win scenario.
Whereas, if you've seen the Under the Red Hood animated adaptation, they nail a Batman in a "no win" scenario. Batman wins, doesn't fire a gun, and nobody dies.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I love Daredevil, but c'mon ... there were definitly casualties when he fought with that chain.

There were no casualties. Daredevil not kill anyone in the TV show. He a true hero of the night, and better hero than Affleck Batman.

 

[Micromind]

Snyder confirmed on the behind the scenes featurette that Batman doesn't get a boost from his armor. Does that bring up his stats?

Superman remained superhuman throughout their fight. No man can withstand crashing through a roof and having a man with hundreds of pounds of armor on land on top of you. He was also hovering at one point in the fight before his strength was restored, so it's safe to say that Batman was battering someone with superhuman strength with no enhancements to his own strength.

Urmm... I think it's pretty clear that the cowl has same kind of power supply (Glowing eyes ?).

It's safe to assume that similarly, the suit also has some power and safety features in order to protect Batman, even if the suit doesn't have that, the helmet surely has more protection and is more advanced.

 

[Micromind]

There were no casualties. Daredevil not kill anyone in the TV show. He a true hero of the night, and better hero than Affleck Batman.

Daredevil fights brutally, and the show-runners just ensure that he stays without any body count just because they want him to be "better hero", how does he know the exact extent of injury a person will suffer in-fight ?

How many people has Captain America killed so far ? In first Avengers, Captain America was shown throwing off people from Helicarrier.

In comics, Batman never kills Joker, Two Face and other villains because -

1. No kill rule which was established in 1950's as the Batman comics wanted to follow the rules set by "Comic Code Authority".


2. Comics are published regularly, Killing iconic villains is back-fire as writers will have to create new Villains regularly, so in order to circulate the villains, they have to keep them alive.

3. Keeping in mind the popularity they have (Joker, Penguin, Two face), comics will never show Batman killing them.

4. Movies is a different medium than Comics, or TV series, if director wants to show a "degree of realism", then showing collateral deaths is not "un heroic".

 

[The Joker]

1. No kill rule which was established in 1950's as the Batman comics wanted to follow the rules set by "Comic Code Authority".

The no kill rule was established for Batman long before that. Editor Whitney Ellsworth enforced that in 1940 after Batman shot down someone with his Batplane gun in Batman #1.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Daredevil fights brutally, and the show-runners just ensure that he stays without any body count just because they want him to be "better hero", how does he know the exact extent of injury a person will suffer in-fight ?

How many people has Captain America killed so far ? In first Avengers, Captain America was shown throwing off people from Helicarrier.

In comics, Batman never kills Joker, Two Face and other villains because -

1. No kill rule which was established in 1950's as the Batman comics wanted to follow the rules set by "Comic Code Authority".


2. Comics are published regularly, Killing iconic villains is back-fire as writers will have to create new Villains regularly, so in order to circulate the villains, they have to keep them alive.

3. Keeping in mind the popularity they have (Joker, Penguin, Two face), comics will never show Batman killing them.

4. Movies is a different medium than Comics, or TV series, if director wants to show a "degree of realism", then showing collateral deaths is not "un heroic".

Injury better than take their life from them.

Captain America government official working for SHIELD like rest of Avengers. It like Police officers carrying guns. They not taking law into hands.

Popular villains are not only criminals Batman could kill. They could make him kill thugs or one off villains with no popularity if if they want to make Batman killer in comics but they don't do that because it wrong and ruin character.

Movies and comics medium not make a difference. Spider-Man movies have popular villains die but they not make it so Spider-Man kill them. They honour character properly that way. Movies can kill villains without hero being one to kill them.

 

[Sleiek]

There were no casualties. Daredevil not kill anyone in the TV show. He a true hero of the night, and better hero than Affleck Batman.

Can't wait for other Batfleck movies to come out and shuts people up. What happened in BvS stays in BvS because of the goddamn story.

Comparing a perfect version of Daredevil to a cruel and broken version of Batman is ridiculous.