BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - Part 305

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Daredevil fights brutally, and the show-runners just ensure that he stays without any body count just because they want him to be "better hero", how does he know the exact extent of injury a person will suffer in-fight ?

. . .

He basically has x-ray vision with his senses. He can tell if he's broken someone's bones, or they have internal bleeding, etc. It actually makes plenty of sense that DD, of all vigilantes, could know for sure whether or not someone is going to die from his actions.

There were no casualties. Daredevil not kill anyone in the TV show. He a true hero of the night, and better hero than Affleck Batman.

Except for Nobu in season 1.
 
Haha sure, dudes getting a steal chain with full force in their faces left and right without one casualty ... because the show didn't tell us that anyone died? I guess the BvS "defenders" aren't the only ones living in denial then.
 
Haha sure, dudes getting a steal chain with full force in their faces left and right without one casualty ... because the show didn't tell us that anyone died? I guess the BvS "defenders" aren't the only ones living in denial then.

No, it's just a lot of people who accept the nature of the media, and suspension of disbelief, like everyone else does for every other film when they aren't having pedantic fanboy debates. :D

Hell, if we're gonna pick this kind of thing to pieces, then DD definitely did NOT kill anyone, as he himself would have been dead from the number of concussions he received in the first 2 episodes of season 1, alone. ;)
 
He basically has x-ray vision with his senses. He can tell if he's broken someone's bones, or they have internal bleeding, etc. It actually makes plenty of sense that DD, of all vigilantes, could know for sure whether or not someone is going to die from his actions.



Except for Nobu in season 1.

then nobu
came back in season 2 but only for daredevil to throw him off a roof.
LOL.

i'm mostly ok with batfleck killing in bvs because i just see this as a portrayal that's not the mainstream, traditional batman. i see this one as more like the original 1939 batman -- who was more brutal and ruthless in fighting crime.
 
then nobu
came back in season 2 but only for daredevil to throw him off a roof.
LOL.

i'm mostly ok with batfleck killing in bvs because i just see this as a portrayal that's not the mainstream, traditional batman. i see this one as more like the original 1939 batman -- who was more brutal and ruthless in fighting crime.

How much more mainstream can you get than the mainstream cinematic universe Batman?
 
How much more mainstream can you get than the mainstream cinematic universe Batman?

Well they went for a grizzled,world weary 45 year old Batman(and made him more cruel to draw Superman and him into conflict) so I'm not sure if I can call it mainstream...now that they are freed from those shackles and are just making a basic teambuilding,fight against the bad guy kinda movie they can give us a more traditional batman.
 
Can't wait for other Batfleck movies to come out and shuts people up. What happened in BvS stays in BvS because of the goddamn story.

Why would you think that just because it happened in only one story that makes it ok? If it's part of the character's story arc then it doesn't just stay in one story. Batfleck is now forever tainted with the fact that he turned killer. Doesn't matter if they give him redemption. Damage is done. That's why Batman would never turn into a killer;

296hmi0.jpg


Comparing a perfect version of Daredevil to a cruel and broken version of Batman is ridiculous.

No it's not. Because broken versions of Batman exist in the comics, too, and he didn't turned into an irrational cruel killer then either. Batfleck has not endured anything that comic book Batman has not. The only difference here is BvS chose to turn Batman into something he's not.

Haha sure, dudes getting a steal chain with full force in their faces left and right without one casualty ... because the show didn't tell us that anyone died? I guess the BvS "defenders" aren't the only ones living in denial then.

If Daredevil was stacking up a body count, that's not a little fact they'd likely neglect to mention. I'm sure The Punisher would have happily brought up that fact, too, when DD was chastising him for his use of lethal force. It would be the ultimate hypocrisy.
 
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I heard that too,...but watching the film, they must have been pretty liberal with the CBM physics because Batman is SUPER strong in the armor scenes.

He "jumps" about 5 feet in the air ( with about 150 pounds of steel armor) to land on top of Supes,- rides him to the ground and doesn't fall over when hitting the ground! :cwink:

He is also able to swing a 200 pound plus man of steel around by a string...

a little beyond the capabilities of mortal man.

I think he must have had batteries under that cape or something...:sly:

Frankly, that's okay with me. I think a comicbook movie should be pretty liberal with its physics, otherwise a character like Flash couldn't exist.

Or ANY of the others, for that matter.
 
Why would you think that just because it happened in only one story that makes it ok? If it's part of the character's story arc then it doesn't just stay in one story. Batfleck is now forever tainted with the fact that he turned killer. Doesn't matter if they give him redemption. Damage is done. That's why Batman would never turn into a killer;

No it's not. Because broken versions of Batman exist in the comics, too, and he didn't turned into an irrational cruel killer then either. Batfleck has not endured anything that comic book Batman has not. The only difference here is BvS chose to turn Batman into something he's not.

1. Let's see how many people whine about BvS after watching Justice League and sequels. My guess is many will be happy if he doesn't "kill" in future films.

2. Compare this Batman with a damaged version of Daredevil, then we will talk.

It's funny, just because Batman doesn't follow his "One rule", he is not Batman anymore. He still fights for the people.
 
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Frankly, that's okay with me. I think a comicbook movie should be pretty liberal with its physics, otherwise a character like Flash couldn't exist.

Or ANY of the others, for that matter.

Not to mention, CBM physics are no worse than any action movie. Hell, they're arguably MORE realistic, as Bruce Wayne has spent a lifetime training, where as John McClane is an out of shape cop who should have been killed 5 times over in the opening 10 minutes of anyone of his films.

Then there are the guys with actual powers.


Why would you think that just because it happened in only one story that makes it ok? If it's part of the character's story arc then it doesn't just stay in one story. Batfleck is now forever tainted with the fact that he turned killer. Doesn't matter if they give him redemption. Damage is done. That's why Batman would never turn into a killer;

296hmi0.jpg




No it's not. Because broken versions of Batman exist in the comics, too, and he didn't turned into an irrational cruel killer then either. Batfleck has not endured anything that comic book Batman has not. The only difference here is BvS chose to turn Batman into something he's not.



If Daredevil was stacking up a body count, that's not a little fact they'd likely neglect to mention. I'm sure The Punisher would have happily brought up that fact, too, when DD was chastising him for his use of lethal force. It would be the ultimate hypocrisy.

EXACTLY! That said, I'm willing to accept the BvS portrayal, but I think it could have been done far better without ever having him cross that line.
 
1. Let's see how many people whine about BvS after watching Justice League and sequels.

Ok....

2. Compare this Batman with a damaged version of Daredevil, then we will talk.

We can talk about it now. Daredevil has been 'damaged' in the comics, too. He's lost loved ones, felt he was fighting a long hopeless battle, seen good people turn bad etc. Basically the same as Batman. He's endured all that, too. Neither of them turned into what Batfleck did.
 
Urmm... I think it's pretty clear that the cowl has same kind of power supply (Glowing eyes ?).

It's safe to assume that similarly, the suit also has some power and safety features in order to protect Batman, even if the suit doesn't have that, the helmet surely has more protection and is more advanced.

I specifically said there are no enhancements to his strength, which has ben confirmed by Snyder.

Of course the armor provides protection. That's the whole point of armor.
 
We can talk about it now. Daredevil has been 'damaged' in the comics, too. He's lost loved ones, felt he was fighting a long hopeless battle, seen good people turn bad etc. Basically the same as Batman. He's endured all that, too. Neither of them turned into what Batfleck did.

You are missing the point. Is Netflix's Daredevil, the subject of comparison, a broken version? Is it right to compare him to Batfleck's?

You are assuming he won't cross the line when he breaks. He hasn't yet so you can't compare yet.
 
You are missing the point. Is Netflix's Daredevil, the subject of comparison, a broken version? Is it right to compare him to Batfleck's?

You are assuming he won't cross the line when he breaks. He hasn't yet so you can't compare yet.

I've no reason to believe he would. He is based on a character who's endured the worst and kept his moral ethics intact. Same goes for Batman. That's why it's so off for fans to see Batman written the way he was in BvS. We've all seen him and other heroes broken, reach their lowest ebb, feel completely hopeless etc, and they don't lose their marbles and become irrational killers.
 
Frankly, that's okay with me. I think a comicbook movie should be pretty liberal with its physics, otherwise a character like Flash couldn't exist.

Or ANY of the others, for that matter.

That is correct...the word for it is - entertainment.
 
I've no reason to believe he would. He is based on a character who's endured the worst and kept his moral ethics intact. Same goes for Batman. That's why it's so off for fans to see Batman written the way he was in BvS. We've all seen him and other heroes broken, reach their lowest ebb, feel completely hopeless etc, and they don't lose their marbles and become irrational killers.

The guy dresses like a bat. He lost his marbles long ago...:cwink:
 
Daredevil fights brutally, and the show-runners just ensure that he stays without any body count just because they want him to be "better hero", how does he know the exact extent of injury a person will suffer in-fight ?

How many people has Captain America killed so far ? In first Avengers, Captain America was shown throwing off people from Helicarrier.

In comics, Batman never kills Joker, Two Face and other villains because -

1. No kill rule which was established in 1950's as the Batman comics wanted to follow the rules set by "Comic Code Authority".


2. Comics are published regularly, Killing iconic villains is back-fire as writers will have to create new Villains regularly, so in order to circulate the villains, they have to keep them alive.

3. Keeping in mind the popularity they have (Joker, Penguin, Two face), comics will never show Batman killing them.

4. Movies is a different medium than Comics, or TV series, if director wants to show a "degree of realism", then showing collateral deaths is not "un heroic".

Well said....
 
Captain America government official working for SHIELD like rest of Avengers. It like Police officers carrying guns. They not taking law into hands.

Since when viewers really think about hero breaking laws when the hero is fighting a villain ? So, by your reasoning if Batman gets government approval, he can kill ?

Not many DC heroes work for Government, so your point is ?

Also, being on the right side of the Law does not make you immune from committing mistakes, which can happen regardless of the fact whether a hero is sanctioned by the authorities or not.
 
The guy dresses like a bat. He lost his marbles long ago...:cwink:

That's one of the things I love about Batman. There is sound rational logic as to why he dresses like a bat. To invoke fear in criminals. He is just a man, and needs that edge to appear more than just that.
 
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**Double!!!
 
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Since when viewers really think about hero breaking laws when the hero is fighting a villain ? So, by your reasoning if Batman gets government approval, he can kill ?

Not many DC heroes work for Government, so your point is ?

Also, being on the right side of the Law does not make you immune from committing mistakes, which can happen regardless of the fact whether a hero is sanctioned by the authorities or not.

You're attempting to reduce all "heroes" to the same governing traits and rules.

These are each different characters, with different character traits, and working under different circumstances.

The moment someone attempts to reduce the matter of, specifically, Batman killing or not, to whether or not a GOOD GUY kills, you've stepped outside the entire discussion.

If you're going to attempt to compare anything remotely resembling apples to apples, then you have to look at characters within given bounds.

You can compare characters who have traditionally been associated with explicit no kill rules, like Superman, Batman, Daredevil, etc, on the grounds of comparing their respective rules, and how fast and loose they may or may not play with them, etc.

That doesn't mean you cannot compare Batman to Captain America, but you can't just make blanket comparisons on the use of lethal force.

Bringing up the likes of Captain America introduces matters like acting as a government agent. That's NOT saying that heroes and vigilantes can only kill if federally employed. It's saying that it's a different condition.
Also, Batman, acting in the position of Cap, for the government, would STILL refrain from killing because it's a matter of his CHARACTER, not his circumstance.

Other characters would NOT be so hard set in their rules. We've seen Superman break his no kill rule numerous times, including killing Zod, in the comics. I don't recall if it HAS happened, but I imagine Spider-man would also be much more willing to cross that line out of what he felt was necessity, or in self defense with no other option.

Characters for whom this is already an established flexibility, or at the very least not such a central core tenant, are much easier to play fast and loose with in adaptation.

While there WOULD be outcry if Spidey spent his film fatally disposing of thugs left and right, if he lets one or two die in the course of serving the greater good, people aren't really going to complain (as much.)

Also, the current market informs the reactions as well. In today's "saturated" market, there is much more expectation of faithful adaptation. Hence why people tend to look slightly LESS critically at Burton's psycho Batman, than the Bat-Murder of Bat-ffleck.

With Bat-ffleck in particular, the criticism is also compounded by the fact that we just had an entire trilogy (and one regarded as some of the best CBMs ever) that was VERY explicit about his 'no kill' policy.
 
You're attempting to reduce all "heroes" to the same governing traits and rules.

These are each different characters, with different character traits, and working under different circumstances.

The moment someone attempts to reduce the matter of, specifically, Batman killing or not, to whether or not a GOOD GUY kills, you've stepped outside the entire discussion.

If you're going to attempt to compare anything remotely resembling apples to apples, then you have to look at characters within given bounds.

You can compare characters who have traditionally been associated with explicit no kill rules, like Superman, Batman, Daredevil, etc, on the grounds of comparing their respective rules, and how fast and loose they may or may not play with them, etc.

That doesn't mean you cannot compare Batman to Captain America, but you can't just make blanket comparisons on the use of lethal force.

Bringing up the likes of Captain America introduces matters like acting as a government agent. That's NOT saying that heroes and vigilantes can only kill if federally employed. It's saying that it's a different condition.
Also, Batman, acting in the position of Cap, for the government, would STILL refrain from killing because it's a matter of his CHARACTER, not his circumstance.

Other characters would NOT be so hard set in their rules. We've seen Superman break his no kill rule numerous times, including killing Zod, in the comics. I don't recall if it HAS happened, but I imagine Spider-man would also be much more willing to cross that line out of what he felt was necessity, or in self defense with no other option.

Characters for whom this is already an established flexibility, or at the very least not such a central core tenant, are much easier to play fast and loose with in adaptation.

While there WOULD be outcry if Spidey spent his film fatally disposing of thugs left and right, if he lets one or two die in the course of serving the greater good, people aren't really going to complain (as much.)

Also, the current market informs the reactions as well. In today's "saturated" market, there is much more expectation of faithful adaptation. Hence why people tend to look slightly LESS critically at Burton's psycho Batman, than the Bat-Murder of Bat-ffleck.

With Bat-ffleck in particular, the criticism is also compounded by the fact that we just had an entire trilogy (and one regarded as some of the best CBMs ever) that was VERY explicit about his 'no kill' policy.

Well said :up:
 
With Bat-ffleck in particular, the criticism is also compounded by the fact that we just had an entire trilogy (and one regarded as some of the best CBMs ever) that was VERY explicit about his 'no kill' policy.

Just speaking for myself and how I interact with Batman's characterization in the DC Film Universe, I would never attempt to argue that it is in character for Batman to kill. It is absolutely correct that Batman has consistently upheld a "no kill" policy, and that this code has been a cornerstone of some of his most successful and memorable stories.

What I would argue, with regards to Snyder's take on Batman, is that his Batman's shift away from this iconic code is purposeful. Snyder wanted to tell a story about a Batman who had been broken by great personal tragedies, decades of Sisyphean attempts to save Gotham from itself, and most recently PTSD triggered by the Kryptonian invasion and attack on Metropolis.

This Batman is intended to be out of character, and the fact that the audience recognizes that this Batman is decidedly different is Snyder achieving his desired effect. Now, the question is: Did Snyder break his Batman in order to convince the audience that a more brutal Batman is a better or cooler Batman? I think the narrative of the film itself makes it very difficult to make a case for that reading.

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice seeks to interrogate what could possibly break Batman, and ultimately what could bring him back to the light. I think what matters most is if this is a worthwhile story to tell, and if so, was it a story that was told well.

I loved it.
 
I just don't get this overly simplistic notion that people can't come back from as dark a place as killing in the name of justice or protection.

I recently watched Michael Moore's new documentary Where to Invade Next? and one of the places he visited was Norway where he explored their criminal justice system. He specifically highlighted how a man who terrorized a group of young people on an island a few years ago, killing dozens of people, was only sentenced to 21 years in prison (Norway's maximum sentence). He wasn't even killing thugs like Batman supposedly did. Anyway, unlike America's prisons, the focus of imprisonment in Norway and elsewhere is genuine rehabilitation.

When Batman or Batman's fans talk about his being tainted by a kill, the only way in which that makes sense on a personal level is the guilt that would haunt him, and the only way it makes sense on a fan level is if Batman cannot be forgiven and appreciated in his reformed state; because it's not like once you've become a killer, you cannot stop yourself from repeating that behavior. In fact, a person who has known darkness, felt its weight and its nightmares, and found the way back to the light may be even wiser and stronger in the face of similar situations in the future.

Context also matters. I have a book called Superheroes and Philosophy that explores ethical and moral issues, including killing. It does not serve us well to examine heroes' behavior in shades of black and white. For example, the recent events in Nice, France required that the driver of the truck be shot and killed so that he wouldn't run over anyone else on the street. Of course we can all hope for there to be a better way or some avenue which allows a prospective hero to act most in line with the highest of ethical and moral virtues, but reality...life...it's not like that.

People make mistakes or go to dark places because they're put in difficult positions or they lose their way. It doesn't do any good to pretend that this cannot happen or, if it does, that it casts an inescapable shadow.
 
You're attempting to reduce all "heroes" to the same governing traits and rules.

These are each different characters, with different character traits, and working under different circumstances.

The moment someone attempts to reduce the matter of, specifically, Batman killing or not, to whether or not a GOOD GUY kills, you've stepped outside the entire discussion.

If you're going to attempt to compare anything remotely resembling apples to apples, then you have to look at characters within given bounds.

You can compare characters who have traditionally been associated with explicit no kill rules, like Superman, Batman, Daredevil, etc, on the grounds of comparing their respective rules, and how fast and loose they may or may not play with them, etc.

That doesn't mean you cannot compare Batman to Captain America, but you can't just make blanket comparisons on the use of lethal force.

Bringing up the likes of Captain America introduces matters like acting as a government agent. That's NOT saying that heroes and vigilantes can only kill if federally employed. It's saying that it's a different condition.
Also, Batman, acting in the position of Cap, for the government, would STILL refrain from killing because it's a matter of his CHARACTER, not his circumstance.

Other characters would NOT be so hard set in their rules. We've seen Superman break his no kill rule numerous times, including killing Zod, in the comics. I don't recall if it HAS happened, but I imagine Spider-man would also be much more willing to cross that line out of what he felt was necessity, or in self defense with no other option.

Characters for whom this is already an established flexibility, or at the very least not such a central core tenant, are much easier to play fast and loose with in adaptation.

While there WOULD be outcry if Spidey spent his film fatally disposing of thugs left and right, if he lets one or two die in the course of serving the greater good, people aren't really going to complain (as much.)

Also, the current market informs the reactions as well. In today's "saturated" market, there is much more expectation of faithful adaptation. Hence why people tend to look slightly LESS critically at Burton's psycho Batman, than the Bat-Murder of Bat-ffleck.

With Bat-ffleck in particular, the criticism is also compounded by the fact that we just had an entire trilogy (and one regarded as some of the best CBMs ever) that was VERY explicit about his 'no kill' policy.

Agreed. This great post.

Batman say himself in comics too that if he became killer he could never recover from that. Snyder not understand character.
 
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