BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - Part 305

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Yeah they were actually pretty fair all things considered. I mean they made fun of the stuff that you'd expect them to (the "Lex's plan is ridiculously overcomplicated" part had me in stitches), but they also praised the stuff that they thought was good and they acknowledge that the film suffered from trying to live up to unrealistic expectations.

But then again, they've praised of DC films before and they've taken the p*** out of some of the Marvel films (and even mocked the ones that they actually like), so it's not like they're overly biased or anything.

I'd imagine that they'll also mock how complicated Zemo's plan was once they get to their CW trailer as well.
 
The honest trailer was great. My favorite quote:

"You can write all the essays you want convincing yourself this was brilliant, but then again, 'dumb' is a one syllable word that sums it up pretty well."
 
The cuts of all lex weird noises and the why does he even bother part made me laugh
 
You absolutely CAN tell that story, and they HAVE told that story.

If they have told that story, then why do I keep hearing about how the "no kill" code for Batman is sacrosanct and such an integral element of his character that to create a story in which it is violated is apocryphal and essentially DOA?

As for the difference between the wanton destruction and collateral damage, and preemptively killing Superman, yeah, that's true, and just further points out the pointlessness of the collateral killing in the first place. It is entirely superfluous if they're already taking him down the path of considering premeditated murder of Superman.

No, it is not superfluous at all. The collateral killing is the first line Batman's crosses (i.e. the line that leads him to believe that he has gone past the point of no return, the point that he believes he will totally lose control, etc.). The act of premeditated murder, however, is the line at which Batman has the potential to prove his own thesis -- move past mere belief to actual proof. Premeditated murder proves that one kind of killing unleashed a beast inside Bruce that cannot be tamed or controlled.

It also completely takes focus off that central dramatic struggle, as is undeniably apparent by the non stop harping discussion of it.

The central dramatic struggle is about whether heroes can be heroes if they are not all good or all powerful. Can heroism and goodness survive in a world determined to break heroes and demolish hope? The central dramatic struggle for Bruce is whether or not goodness and heroism is a beautiful lie. If there's any potential for evil (a one percent chance) that goodness is a lie, then should those who attempt to create goodness via the exercise of power be stopped before they inevitably fall?

Batman is convinced that Superman must die because he believes any flaw is grounds for believing that heroes are not all good and therefore can be corrupted. He embraces this idea because he's already down in that dark hole. It's why his worst nightmare turns Superman into a brutal killer who becomes brutal as a result of personal tragedy. Bruce identifies strongly with this. Like you said, he is convinced that once the code is violated, there is no turning back. Self-control of any kind is impossible.

If the story were just about Batman getting close to crossing his own point of no return and ultimately turning back, then there is no story about how Batman crossed that line and found a way back from descending into an absolute darkness beyond redemption. You can't tell a story about how Batman overcomes his fears of failure pushing him over an edge without actually allowing him to fail and tempting him with the edge.

In Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, Batman crosses his self-created point of no return. He kills criminals or virtually ensures criminals will be killed. He self-identifies as a criminal. He is convinced no one good can stay that way. The only way forward he can see for himself is to pursue a suicide mission to hunt Superman to assure some sort of legacy. When Batman is able to stop himself from killing Superman, Batman saves Bruce. He saves himself from himself because he proves he can regain control after crossing the "no kill" code line. It isn't until Superman dies for humanity, however, that Batman genuinely believes "men are still good." Bruce now not only understands that he can control himself, but he can even believe goodness is still possible. Superman's death gives Batman hope.
 
You know, I keep hearing about how Snyder blatantly admitted he only made his Batman brutal in order to be cool, it would be nice to see the actual source of these comments. Some quotes and links would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
1. So what you are saying is you want a 30 second rescue scene that doesn't involved Batman punching a bunch of guys at the same time. Okay.

2. No sense in the tracker? Eh, the tracker is there in the event Batman is unable to retrieve the Kryptonite, so that he can do it again later. There is a lot of sense in that.

Going by what you want Batman to do, we wouldn't get any action sequences. There's nothing wrong in punishing the bad guys. Batman also breaks bones in the comics, he doesn't live in the shadows 24/7.
My point was that there's no point in having him attack the truck if he's not going to get the k-nite then. The fights have to have a point. Also with the Martha rescue, I'm saying that the killing of the the men was pointless to everything. He could have still broken in and fought the guards to get into the room. But to me, Batman's a tactician, not a brute. The loud destruction in the Martha rescue is counter to his goal to save her.
 
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2. No sense in the tracker? Eh, the tracker is there in the event Batman is unable to retrieve the Kryptonite, so that he can do it again later. There is a lot of sense in that.

Batman was pretty lucky he didn't demolish the tracker. it barely survived lol
 
The only thing worth addressing is that I was saying you can (and they have) tell "a story about Batman losing control and climbing his way back from that pit of darkness without actually having him" kill.

Not saying that they did it already WITH him killing. That would make no sense to bring up as it's the exact opposite of my point.

You know, I keep hearing about how Snyder blatantly admitted he only made his Batman brutal in order to be cool, it would be nice to see the actual source of these comments. Some quotes and links would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I did not say Snyder claimed he ONLY made his Batman lethal because it was cool.
I said Snyder has used "it's cool/fun" as part of his justifications.

Here's a video, wherein Snyder, explicitly speaking to setting up the portrayal of Batman and Superman's brutality, and public persecution, respectively, as "cool, and fun."

http://batman-news.com/2016/03/25/why-does-batman-kill-in-batman-v-superman/

I know what he is saying, but his ability to put it into words is poor at best, and his propensity to fall back on justifications of "fun" and "cool" completely undermines it all.

Also, he really shows his own ignorance, citing the Burton films as the origin of the "no kill" notion, and claiming that Batman kills a tonne of people in TDKR.

I like a LOT of what Snyder has done, and is doing, but dude needs to get his **** straight before running his mouth off, and especially before making more DC movies.
 
Funny because I seem to remember Batman killing a lot of people in the Burton films, and in TDKR he killed like one guy in a really desperate situation where millions of other lives were at stake.

Yeah whatever you other thoughts on Snyder are, it's hard to argue that he isn't very good at explaining himself/his decisions.
 
The only thing worth addressing is that I was saying you can (and they have) tell "a story about Batman losing control and climbing his way back from that pit of darkness without actually having him" kill.

I've never been addressing the idea of Batman stories that explore the possibility of Batman losing control. Telling me that they've told stories where he came back from a theoretical edge makes no sense. You can't tell the story of a person recovering from alcohol addiction or a relapse of addiction (Sherlock Holmes deals with this, for example) without actually having a person get addicted or relapse in the first place. You can't tell a redemption story without a sin to require it. That sin has to be that line which is feared and hated the most and not approximations of it.

I did not say Snyder claimed he ONLY made his Batman lethal because it was cool.
I said Snyder has used "it's cool/fun" as part of his justifications.

Well, you're in luck because I wasn't talking to just you. If I had wanted to ask you specifically I would have quoted you or put it in my previous post. I didn't because this has been an ongoing topic of discussion with multiple people, some of whom have made that claim. And, I'm sorry, but you did say that. You said the killing was "superfluous" and "gratuitous" and that Snyder has all but admitted "that's all it is" by saying the brutality and killing was "cool." Notice how you said "all" and now you're just saying it was "part" of his justifications.

I know what he is saying, but his ability to put it into words is poor at best, and his propensity to fall back on justifications of "fun" and "cool" completely undermines it all.

Also, he really shows his own ignorance, citing the Burton films as the origin of the "no kill" notion, and claiming that Batman kills a tonne of people in TDKR.

I like a LOT of what Snyder has done, and is doing, but dude needs to get his **** straight before running his mouth off, and especially before making more DC movies.

Thanks for the information, because it does answer my question. That said, I don't see how this is relevant to analyzing and evaluating the story that we watched onscreen. Snyder, a guy who has never been well-spoken, obviously took inspiration, maybe with some misreading or misremembering on his part (I honestly can't say having not read TDKR), and turned it into a story that doesn't present killing and brutality as cool. In fact, his film rejects that notion by making such behavior the object of criticism and necessitating redemption. I can only judge the movie based on what I see, and what I saw was not a movie that glorifies violence for the purposes of condoning it.
 
Funny because I seem to remember Batman killing a lot of people in the Burton films, and in TDKR he killed like one guy in a really desperate situation where millions of other lives were at stake.

Yeah whatever you other thoughts on Snyder are, it's hard to argue that he isn't very good at explaining himself/his decisions.
People took issue with the Burton Batman for that too apparently and he didn't kill anyone in TDKReturns.
 
then they should've treated the killing, not the branding, as symbol of his fallen.

Did they ever mention "why" the brand was a death sentence?

Why would criminals kill other criminals because batman caught them. ?

Was it because that one guy was a human trafficker? Child molester?
 
Just saw this movie, kind of late.

The general drama of the movie was good. I like Ben at Bruce, and Cavill as Superman. Gal Gadot was great as Wonder Woman, and I really liked that character. Only gripe I had was Lex's character; I didn't much like his behavior, but that's a personal preference and not something that hurts the movie.

I really liked the Lane scenes in the desert; I thought that was pretty cool and now I want to watch a movie like that (maybe Whiskey Tango Foxtrot can sate that). The other scenes in Bruce's vision, where Superman had (apparently) taken over the world, was also cool.

Bats taking on the thugs to save Martha was pretty cool. But the trailer kind of the pieced those scenes tighter and it looked less thrilling in the movie for some reason, but that's not a big deal.

I thought the Batman VS Superman fight was lame. It felt slow and unexciting. But I did enjoy seeing Batman punching a weakened Superman in the jaw until Superman started regaining his strength and looked Batman right in the eye; that was funny.

Also, the Doomsday fight was lame too, mostly because their was a lot of red lighting/shockwaves going on and not a lot of action like I expected.

Drop the fight scenes, and add more of the drama you get in the first half of the movie, and I'd think it was a pretty good non-action superhero movie.

I really enjoyed just seeing Clark, Bruce, and Wonder Woman doing all of their covert actions around each other.
 
Off topic, but Superman-centric: I was watching a recent news story involving corrupt cops treating people like crap and taunting them and such. And I all I thought of was, I want Superman to come in to teach them a lesson. Sadly, many wouldn't agree with me, and say "that's for Batman, Superman shouldn't do that" or something similar, and I will be like "why?"

Superman did this in the Golden Age, this is something he did and should continue to do. Police brutality and corruption right now is something Superman would fight in the '30s as he should do today. In fact, he was and still is to a degree a social crusader, or in today's words, a social activist. And yet, when they did a comic on the subject recently (during the Truth arc), a couple of people were like "I don't want Superman to do that" and I'm like "WHAT DO YOU WANT HIM TO DO THEN?!"

"Superman is about hope, he is about this and that" I get that, but those are not only ideas and no examples, they are also ideas that in fact link to the above examples, and yet fanboys don't like that even though it technically is what they were saying. In fact, I would go as far as to say they don't know what they want.

Comics, movies, etc. we need to bring this back to Superman in full force, not as a spec underneath other things.
 
I still dont get the hate over the martha scene, its about batman realizing hes not that much different then superman. It makes sense watching the bluray and geoff johns and zak explaining its batmans chance to do what he couldnt for his own mother. Redemption
 
The honest trailer was great. My favorite quote:

"You can write all the essays you want convincing yourself this was brilliant, but then again, 'dumb' is a one syllable word that sums it up pretty well."

The cuts of all lex weird noises and the why does he even bother part made me laugh

Those and the egg part made me crack up the most.
 
Just saw this movie, kind of late.

The general drama of the movie was good. I like Ben at Bruce, and Cavill as Superman. Gal Gadot was great as Wonder Woman, and I really liked that character.

Was she though? Everyone says that. Having rewatched the Ultimate Edition (its really not that much better), I just don't get the notion that she was "great." She looked good, her role was cool (albeit wholly unnecessary). But I think it is typical, premature, fanboy bandwagon jumping to say she is "great." She didn't do anything other than look mysteriously at the camera and show up at the end to do CGI stunts. I think fans should exercise some caution. Remember, BvS's first trailer looked great. Look how that turned out.

Those and the egg part made me crack up the most.

"What do you mean you thought she was with him? You literally sent her an email 30 minutes ago!"
 
Was she though? Everyone says that. Having rewatched the Ultimate Edition (its really not that much better), I just don't get the notion that she was "great."

I know right? i think when people say she's great they mean she looked cool in the costume and her action scene was cool, because i thought her performance was really wooden and nothing special at all, like, 80% of her screentime is spent watching the news 3 times, watching the justice league teaser trailers and looking sexy at a party.
 
"What do you mean you thought she was with him? You literally sent her an email 30 minutes ago!"

:hehe:

I think at best, how I feel about BvS will get closer to how I feel about the Schumacher films. But, it may be too boring for that.
 
I say Gal was 'great' because she seemed to fit snuggly into the role. She was welcome. Maybe unnecessary, but welcome. And I'm not a big DC guy and had little hopes for her, and she was better than I thought. So I say she was great because she maintained a believable role, and one I started to like.

But I like all female characters. Harley Quinn, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Black Canary. Just make the character female and you got a fan in me.
 
"What do you mean you thought she was with him? You literally sent her an email 30 minutes ago!"
What does that have to do with Bats assuming she was Kryptonian (or something related) because of her clearly supernatural nature?
 
I say Gal was 'great' because she seemed to fit snuggly into the role. She was welcome. Maybe unnecessary, but welcome. And I'm not a big DC guy and had little hopes for her, and she was better than I thought. So I say she was great because she maintained a believable role, and one I started to like.
Yeah, I was thinking if there was going to be a weak link in BvS, it could've been Gal. But nope. She was a highlight. I think it was important to have Diana in BvS. Mainly to have that end scene with Bruce and her discussing seeking out other metahumans.
 
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