BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - Part 305

[Val_Zod]

Yeah, I was thinking if there was going to be a weak link in BvS, it could've been Gal. But nope. She was a highlight. I think it was important to have Diana in BvS. Mainly to have that end scene with Bruce and her discussing seeking out other metahumans.

Gal herself wasn't a weakpoint but I felt her insertion in the film was tacked on. The ultimate cut didn't do much to change that.

 

[Timebomb]

"Worst product placement ever!" Made me laugh as well. That and " Remember you let him die during a tornado" classic stuff.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Why does he even bother - the best bit.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

The Last Son of Crapped On

haha

 

[Timebomb]

"Oh now I get it...............................nope, still dumb" great stuff

 

[matt47]

The Last Son of Crapped On

haha

haha that was a good one.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Theweepeople]

I'd imagine that they'll also mock how complicated Zemo's plan was once they get to their CW trailer as well.

I love civil war but, it's laughable to compare how much more difficult Zemo's plan was than Lex Luthor. At least Luthor has the connections and financial resources to pull off his plan. Zemo was smart but, there was no indication anyone was helping him with his plan. Kinda makes one wonder how he came up with the resources to go from Sokovia, to set off a bomb in Vienna, then infiltrate a facility in Berlin while his bomb destroys a power grid. Then he has resources to travel to Siberia and has the foreknowledge to know Tony, Bucky, and Steve will all arrive in a timely manner at the same time so he can finish his plan. Zemo is not only a genius but, also has the ability to predict the future.

 

[Bagide]

lol

 

[Loki882]

Did they ever mention "why" the brand was a death sentence?

Why would criminals kill other criminals because batman caught them. ?

Was it because that one guy was a human trafficker? Child molester?

I think that the idea is that he only branded rapists, pedos, and other such criminals. These criminals, are not particularly popular amongst their fellow inmates. So normally, they could conceivably lie about the crimes that they'd committed. But if word got around that "Batman only brands rapists and criminals who hurt women and children" and then the other inmates see you with the brand, well then there's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide and it's basically a death sentence.

The problem is that, the movie treats that like the big proof of how far Batman has fallen morally and kind of glosses over the whole "he's flat-out killing people when he doesn't have to" thing. Kind of backwards imo.

 

[Loki882]

I love civil war but, it's laughable to compare how much more difficult Zemo's plan was than Lex Luthor. At least Luthor has the connections and financial resources to pull off his plan. Zemo was smart but, there was no indication anyone was helping him with his plan. Kinda makes one wonder how he came up with the resources to go from Sokovia, to set off a bomb in Vienna, then infiltrate a facility in Berlin while his bomb destroys a power grid. Then he has resources to travel to Siberia and has the foreknowledge to know Tony, Bucky, and Steve will all arrive in a timely manner at the same time so he can finish his plan. Zemo is not only a genius but, also has the ability to predict the future.

The thing about Zemo though is that, his plan is actually pretty bare bones. The most high tech that he gets is that EMP device that he sets off. Otherwise it's just "oh I need to find this guy and interrogate him, or find this book, or go here, etc" none of which requires a ton of money/resources (except for maybe plane tickets and hotel rooms). And for an ex-special forces commander who's spent a long time studying the files that Black Widow dump on the internet at the end of TWS, it's believable.

And the specifics of his plan are easier to follow than with Lex. Like step by step I wasn't scratching my head as much as with Lex. And his motivations are certain easier to understand.

My biggest issue with Zemo's plan is more that he needed the other characters to act in such and such a way, and be in this one specific spot at a specific time in order for it to work. And IDK how he could be sure that that would happen or that they'd act that way. We get a handwavey explanation of "I'm extremely patient and I studied you in order to learn your weaknesses" and I just don't know if that's quite enough of a justification.

 

[Gu3ree]

The Honest Trailer...

All true. I hope to God Snyder watched this. He could learn from them. This trailer covers everything that was wrong with the movie, which is ironic considering that the 'Everything Wrong With' channel fails to point out plotholes and whats actually wrong with movies. It covered everything the fans disliked about it as well. I know that's an understatement but after 2 movies, Snyder really has to understand by now that his way, is not the right way.

Not saying Man of Steel was bad, but BvS was bad enough. There can't be more humor? Superman can't smile even a little?

As realistic and serious as everything was in BvS, when he kills Jimmy Olsen off, it's
like Snyder does that to try and avoid comic relief...but then there's some other humor in the movie, but just briefly between Batman and Superman, "Is she with you?"

If you can't have Jimmy Olsen, then why can you allow to have one, comedic moment in the movie? It doesn't make sense to me.

There was just very, very little 'fun' in the movie. I feel like by the end, when it gets to be more heroic and slightly theatrical, I'm thinking why? I feel like Snyder will almost refuse to have anything fun in it at all, because it won't be serious...like Clark Kent ripping the shirt open to reveal the "S", or Superman smiling or laughing in one scene. But everything has to be grounded/realistic. Yet...Snyder CGIed the f*** out of the final battle.

Snyder gets most aspects about Batman right though. The humor between Bruce and Alfred feels very reminiscent of The Dark Knight trilogy. But there's no humor or light in Superman's story at all. Batman's story doesn't need light, but Superman does...there has to be a balance. Superman just mopes and moans.

In many ways, I agree with the Honest trailer that he is the Superman we fear. There hasn't been a clear explanation for why Clark decides to be Superman. Most audiences new to Superman will think that 'oh, he just does this, not because he wants to, but because he thinks he should, but he thinks, 'Why do I bother?''

They have yet to make Superman cool. They made Captain America cool again in The Winter Soldier.

Aside from this issue in the movie...we waited 2 hours to see Batman and Superman fight. Another issue. While the Martha connection was interesting, I found that factor slightly disappointing into why that stopped the fight.

I think they took the Lex Luthor character too far in this movie. Firstly, because he had already figured out Superman and Batman's secret identities. He was so obsessed with Superman, like a mentally-ill person, rather than just a tough, powerful man who loathes Superman. But secondly, they took this character so far to even knowing who Superman's mother is and kidnapping her. The Luthor I know hasn't gone this far before.

I didn't like Lex's plans to try and defeat Superman. Now this Lex is in jail. The Luthor I know is a very hard person to stop, and hard to get in jail because he is clever. This Lex on the other hand, I think they made him too clever, but it wasn't believable.

Problem is, after kidnapping Superman's mother, where do you go from there with this character? I wanted to see a series where Superman and Lex Luthor are rivals. Where there is frequent antagonism. But someone who kidnapped your own mother and threatened to kill her--this has to make you hate this guy so much that you'd want to kill him and that you won't put up with him at all.

For me this was not the way to start Lex and Superman's antagonism. And he hates Superman, why? Because he believes Superman is the bad guy because he is all-powerful? In a way, it makes Lex almost, not the bad guy. This sucks to me. Lex Luthor should know clearly that he is wrong and that he is jealous of Superman. Trying to make Superman out to be a bad guy because he is all-powerful, should be an excuse.

 

[Predator jp]

The problem is that, the movie treats that like the big proof of how far Batman has fallen morally and kind of glosses over the whole "he's flat-out killing people when he doesn't have to" thing. Kind of backwards imo.

exactly.
that's why i have problems with the killing particularly in this movie.
it does not serve the narrative at all.

they should've just stick with either the branding or the killing.

 

[Theweepeople]

The thing about Zemo though is that, his plan is actually pretty bare bones. The most high tech that he gets is that EMP device that he sets off. Otherwise it's just "oh I need to find this guy and interrogate him, or find this book, or go here, etc" none of which requires a ton of money/resources (except for maybe plane tickets and hotel rooms). And for an ex-special forces commander who's spent a long time studying the files that Black Widow dump on the internet at the end of TWS, it's believable.

And the specifics of his plan are easier to follow than with Lex. Like step by step I wasn't scratching my head as much as with Lex. And his motivations are certain easier to understand.

My biggest issue with Zemo's plan is more that he needed the other characters to act in such and such a way, and be in this one specific spot at a specific time in order for it to work. And IDK how he could be sure that that would happen or that they'd act that way. We get a handwavey explanation of "I'm extremely patient and I studied you in order to learn your weaknesses" and I just don't know if that's quite enough of a justification.

I agree with a lot of this. On paper Zemos plan clearly makes more sense. It's basically a revenge plan. I just had a hard time believing he could accomplish all of that on his on. I thought there were way too coincidences that allowed his plan to work.

1.Zemo sets off a bomb in Vienna to get Bucky in trouble and has the foreknowledge that Bucky won't be killed in an attempt to capture him. Zemo also knows that Steve won't be killed during the police raid because if either of them die his plan is over.

2. Zemo easily infiltrates the facility in Berlin and had his bomb delivered to the power grid right when he starts interrogating Bucky. Then he easily escapes the facility when it was most likely on lockdown. I would really like to know how Zemo even knew that Bucky was being kept in Berlin. Seems like classified information a terrorist would find difficult to decipher.

3. Zemo somehow knows Bucky will escape from the facility, join forces with Steve, and get suckered into going to Siberia while Tony stark shows up at the perfect time so he can complete his plan.


Did Zemo even think about how unnecessary the final part of his plan was? Buckies escape from the facility, led to the airport battle, which led to half the team being in prison. At this point in time Zemo had technically torn the team apart. Ironically his actions at the end led to Captain America and Black Panther rescuing the imprisoned team, which of course greatly increases the chance of the Avengers getting back together.

 

[idiot09]

The thing I find funny is people say "Oh they changed Luthor thats not how comicbook Luthor would behave" but then again CW changed Zemo completely and nobody complains about that(I liked Zemo as a villain).I think this happens because DC characters are just so iconic,we all have a favourite version and when it doesnt cater to that,we get pissed.For me I didnt know Captain America or Iron Man before the MCU so whatever they gave me I liked it.I didnt know "how they were supposed to behave".

I read something similar in reddit recently where a guy defended Iron Man being different from the comics as "But this is movie Iron Man",and while that is a valid argument,the same that does not apply to iconic characters like Batman,Superman,Spiderman hold a special significance in people's heart and it becomes harder for the creators.Not that its any excuse though.

 

[idiot09]

nvm,double post.

 

[Loki882]

Change isn't bad in an of itself. That is, if the changes are good/make sense. The problem that I had with Lex is, well neither of those was true. He was irritating, never came across like a legitimate threat, his motives were murky at best, his plan was ridiculous, etc.

And, so that no one can accuse me of bias, I've complained about both Marvel and Fox CBM's for exactly the same reason. X3, Spider-Man 3, Iron Man 3, GOTG, TASM 2, etc being notable examples of this.

 

[idiot09]

never came across like a legitimate threat, his motives were murky at best, his plan was ridiculous

Have you seen the Ultimate cut mate?His plan is much more shown,and I genuinely feared him as a villain,after seeing the lengths he would go to.There are atleast 4 or 5 major parts of his plan ommited in the TC,and I found him a much better villain in the UC.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

I agree with a lot of this. On paper Zemos plan clearly makes more sense. It's basically a revenge plan. I just had a hard time believing he could accomplish all of that on his on. I thought there were way too coincidences that allowed his plan to work.

1.Zemo sets off a bomb in Vienna to get Bucky in trouble and has the foreknowledge that Bucky won't be killed in an attempt to capture him. Zemo also knows that Steve won't be killed during the police raid because if either of them die his plan is over.

2. Zemo easily infiltrates the facility in Berlin and had his bomb delivered to the power grid right when he starts interrogating Bucky. Then he easily escapes the facility when it was most likely on lockdown. I would really like to know how Zemo even knew that Bucky was being kept in Berlin. Seems like classified information a terrorist would find difficult to decipher.

3. Zemo somehow knows Bucky will escape from the facility, join forces with Steve, and get suckered into going to Siberia while Tony stark shows up at the perfect time so he can complete his plan.


Did Zemo even think about how unnecessary the final part of his plan was? Buckies escape from the facility, led to the airport battle, which led to half the team being in prison. At this point in time Zemo had technically torn the team apart. Ironically his actions at the end led to Captain America and Black Panther rescuing the imprisoned team, which of course greatly increases the chance of the Avengers getting back together.

The movie fell apart for me here. How was Zemo even able to impersonate a doctor to get as far as interviewing Bucky? Did they not know what this doctor looks like? Surely they either vetted this doctor thoroughly or the facility already had a working relationship with this doctor, either way they know what he looks like. So Zemo, with no disguise, gets past all necessary security checkpoints. Not once did anyone bother to look at his face and think, wait a second this isn't our doctor. Not only that, but you would think it would be noticed that this doctor was missing for a few days and word would have reached the facility of his disappearance.

 

[Shadow Moses]

My problem with Lex is he was written like watching a combination of Riddler and Joker. It made no sense. If Zack had called him The Riddler and thrown in a couple of riddles I honestly don't think anyone would have complained. Bizarre direction to take the character.

Really hated him.

 

[Naked Shia]

The movie fell apart for me here. How was Zemo even able to impersonate a doctor to get as far as interviewing Bucky? Did they not know what this doctor looks like? Surely they either vetted this doctor thoroughly or the facility already had a working relationship with this doctor, either way they know what he looks like. So Zemo, with no disguise, gets past all necessary security checkpoints. Not once did anyone bother to look at his face and think, wait a second this isn't our doctor. Not only that, but you would think it would be noticed that this doctor was missing for a few days and word would have reached the facility of his disappearance.

God bless you. I can't understand how people claim this is a great movie when you have such massive plot holes.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

My problem with Lex is he was written like watching a combination of Riddler and Joker. It made no sense. If Zack had called him The Riddler and thrown in a couple of riddles I honestly don't think anyone would have complained. Bizarre direction to take the character.

Really hated him.

I think a lot of this has to do more with Jesse's performance than how the character was written. Just imagine all the same lines delivered in the way Kevin Spacey plays Frank Underwood without any of the tics, stutters or odd mannerisms that Jesse injected into the role. I believe the character would have been more universally accepted had it been played the Underwood route even with all the same lines.

 

[Flint Marko]

Oh look, we're back to talking about Civil War in a BvS thread

 

[souperman]

I think that the idea is that he only branded rapists, pedos, and other such criminals. These criminals, are not particularly popular amongst their fellow inmates. So normally, they could conceivably lie about the crimes that they'd committed. But if word got around that "Batman only brands rapists and criminals who hurt women and children" and then the other inmates see you with the brand, well then there's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide and it's basically a death sentence.

The problem is that, the movie treats that like the big proof of how far Batman has fallen morally and kind of glosses over the whole "he's flat-out killing people when he doesn't have to" thing. Kind of backwards imo.

Thanks for the reply. That's what I thought, but they never clarify that.

I think the way to see this Batman is not that he is a "killer"

He never flat out murders anyone...except trying to murder Superman.

His moral code has been modified by time and frustration. He no longer "minds" if criminals are permanently injured or die as a result of his actions. If they are doing something wrong and don't surrender or put up a fight, then whatever happens is on them in his mind. He has twisted his code to permit these deaths as necessary casualties to achieve his goals.

He has "convinced himself" that it is ok now to get "closer" to the line. He does not feel that he has actually crossed it until Martha.

This sadistic branding is part of that. He can close his eyes to the fact that they may be killed because of the brand because he has contorted his values to separate the two effects. He is using the criminals own behavior as his end goal. This is HIS manipulation...not unlike Lex. It is interesting and very human.

 

[The Joker]

The Honest Trailer...

All true. I hope to God Snyder watched this. He could learn from them. This trailer covers everything that was wrong with the movie, which is ironic considering that the 'Everything Wrong With' channel fails to point out plotholes and whats actually wrong with movies. It covered everything the fans disliked about it as well. I know that's an understatement but after 2 movies, Snyder really has to understand by now that his way, is not the right way.

Not saying Man of Steel was bad, but BvS was bad enough. There can't be more humor? Superman can't smile even a little?

As realistic and serious as everything was in BvS, when he kills Jimmy Olsen off, it's
like Snyder does that to try and avoid comic relief...but then there's some other humor in the movie, but just briefly between Batman and Superman, "Is she with you?"

If you can't have Jimmy Olsen, then why can you allow to have one, comedic moment in the movie? It doesn't make sense to me.

There was just very, very little 'fun' in the movie. I feel like by the end, when it gets to be more heroic and slightly theatrical, I'm thinking why? I feel like Snyder will almost refuse to have anything fun in it at all, because it won't be serious...like Clark Kent ripping the shirt open to reveal the "S", or Superman smiling or laughing in one scene. But everything has to be grounded/realistic. Yet...Snyder CGIed the f*** out of the final battle.

There's no humor or light in Superman's story at all. Batman's story doesn't need light, but Superman does...there has to be a balance. Superman just mopes and moans.

In many ways, I agree with the Honest trailer that he is the Superman we fear. There hasn't been a clear explanation for why Clark decides to be Superman. Most audiences new to Superman will think that 'oh, he just does this, not because he wants to, but because he thinks he should, but he thinks, 'Why do I bother?''

They have yet to make Superman cool. They made Captain America cool again in The Winter Soldier.

Aside from this issue in the movie...we waited 2 hours to see Batman and Superman fight. Another issue. While the Martha connection was interesting, I found that factor slightly disappointing into why that stopped the fight.

I think they took the Lex Luthor character too far in this movie. Firstly, because he had already figured out Superman and Batman's secret identities. He was so obsessed with Superman, like a mentally-ill person, rather than just a tough, powerful man who loathes Superman. But secondly, they took this character so far to even knowing who Superman's mother is and kidnapping her. The Luthor I know hasn't gone this far before.

I didn't like Lex's plans to try and defeat Superman. Now this Lex is in jail. The Luthor I know is a very hard person to stop, and hard to get in jail because he is clever. This Lex on the other hand, I think they made him too clever, but it wasn't believable.

Problem is, after kidnapping Superman's mother, where do you go from there with this character? I wanted to see a series where Superman and Lex Luthor are rivals. Where there is frequent antagonism. But someone who kidnapped your own mother and threatened to kill her--this has to make you hate this guy so much that you'd want to kill him and that you won't put up with him at all.

For me this was not the way to start Lex and Superman's antagonism. And he hates Superman, why? Because he believes Superman is the bad guy because he is all-powerful? In a way, it makes Lex almost, not the bad guy. This sucks to me. Lex Luthor should know clearly that he is wrong and that he is jealous of Superman. Trying to make Superman out to be a bad guy because he is all-powerful, should be an excuse.

Nicely said

Change isn't bad in an of itself. That is, if the changes are good/make sense. The problem that I had with Lex is, well neither of those was true. He was irritating, never came across like a legitimate threat, his motives were murky at best, his plan was ridiculous, etc.

So true.