BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - Part 307

[craigaat]

Yeah, it’s why I think the “release the Snyder Cut” stuff is a lost cause. Even if they release Snyder’s JL, it would still be an incomplete storyline. So in the end, it’s just a fruitless endeavor.

Yeah that's true, but I still believe there's a good Justice League movie out there, so... #releasethesnydercut !!!

 

[Da-Scribe]

I think a great way to show that a character is hopeful and optimistic is is to put them in a seemingly hopeless scenario. The true optimist is someone who has hope not only in summer, but in the depths of winter.

If everything usually goes well for a character, having a positive outlook isn't optimistic, it's realistic. It's the character who is down on their luck but still believes in a better tomorrow that is the true optimist.
A real story of hope isn't about the reigning champion winning yet another fight and retaining their perfect record, it's about the boxer who has lost time and time again, yet still climbs into the ring.

I think there's a difference between Superman being an inspiring figure of hope, and Superman simply having a good time.
Being happy and being hopeful are not the same thing.

Really well said. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, but there's is something rather disheartening behind the idea that a sad Superman can't represent hope.

The common criticism is that the "depressed" Superman seen in BvS doesn't embody the hope and optimism the character is known for. It's an unfortunate line of thought to me, as the people I know who struggle with depression are some of the most hopeful and optimistic people I've ever encountered. To wake up every day feeling crushed by the weight of your own mind, and to still fight to live a life that has meaning to you and others, it's just a really powerful example.

I do get just wanting to see your favorite hero be happy, but I agree that it's not the only path toward hope.

 

[Aurakles]

Yeah, it’s why I think the “release the Snyder Cut” stuff is a lost cause. Even if they release Snyder’s JL, it would still be an incomplete storyline. So in the end, it’s just a fruitless endeavor.

I don't think it'd be fruitless if we got the movie Snyder filmed. Yes it might not be everything he wanted it to be, that that doesn't reduce it to nothing.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Theatrical cut of BVS, even though it wasn't Snyders preferred version of the story.

 

[The Joker]

I just wish we got to see his 5-film arc.

If they were going to be anything like the first three parts, then I'm glad we dodged that bullet.

 

[flickchick85]

I think a great way to show that a character is hopeful and optimistic is is to put them in a seemingly hopeless scenario. The true optimist is someone who has hope not only in summer, but in the depths of winter.

If everything usually goes well for a character, having a positive outlook isn't optimistic, it's realistic. It's the character who is down on their luck but still believes in a better tomorrow that is the true optimist.
A real story of hope isn't about the reigning champion winning yet another fight and retaining their perfect record, it's about the boxer who has lost time and time again, yet still climbs into the ring.

I think there's a difference between Superman being an inspiring figure of hope, and Superman simply having a good time.
Being happy and being hopeful are not the same thing.

I never said they were the same thing, and I never said everything should go well for him. Those stories I listed didn’t have everything going great for him. Optimism is having a positive outlook, even when things look bleak. Having hope where no one else would, and consequently inspiring it in others - that’s Superman’s true superpower to me.

 

[fan4stic]

Really well said. I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, but there's is something rather disheartening behind the idea that a sad Superman can't represent hope.

The common criticism is that the "depressed" Superman seen in BvS doesn't embody the hope and optimism the character is known for. It's an unfortunate line of thought to me, as the people I know who struggle with depression are some of the most hopeful and optimistic people I've ever encountered. To wake up every day feeling crushed by the weight of your own mind, and to still fight to live a life that has meaning to you and others, it's just a really powerful example.

I do get just wanting to see your favorite hero be happy, but I agree that it's not the only path toward hope.

I wouldn't argue Clark is dealing with depression in this movie, but that the movie has him being and/or looking sad, unhappy, or angry most of the time and I think the movie doesn't so much deal with it like I think works and more or less doesn't have him be very personally engaged in things, if that's what they're trying to do. I don't think I would really get to, based off of what the movie gives me, that he's depressed.

 

[Nemeres]

I think a great way to show that a character is hopeful and optimistic is is to put them in a seemingly hopeless scenario. The true optimist is someone who has hope not only in summer, but in the depths of winter.

If everything usually goes well for a character, having a positive outlook isn't optimistic, it's realistic. It's the character who is down on their luck but still believes in a better tomorrow that is the true optimist.
A real story of hope isn't about the reigning champion winning yet another fight and retaining their perfect record, it's about the boxer who has lost time and time again, yet still climbs into the ring.

I think there's a difference between Superman being an inspiring figure of hope, and Superman simply having a good time.
Being happy and being hopeful are not the same thing.

I love the idea of putting Superman through the grinder and having him come on the other side with his ideals alive and intact, tested but proven. "Happy Superman" is not a must if the alternative is a meaty self-exploratory journey. I don't think that's the problem and I don't think it's what people are opposed to necessarily. The theory of it is tops. With BVS, I think it's the execution that ends up diluting the idea.

If I'm allowed a bit of a rewrite. Possible alternative routes, less constrained by a plot on auto-pilot:

• Superman returns from his short exile; Lex has Martha bound and gagged. But having just had an epiphany regarding the value of doing good, courtesy of Jonathan's ghost/memory, Superman refuses to play Lex's game yet again. Maybe he keeps Lex from getting away, maybe he uses his super-senses to find Ma himself. The understanding of his plight given to him by Pa would've then counted for something rather than being suddenly rendered meaningless.

• Or... Superman does take Lex's bait and goes to face Batman. But he doesn't consider the killing of Batman a legitimate option should everything else fail. He goes to Batman fully determined to win him over, make him listen. Lex's terms are not to be trusted, and Superman, ever the optimist, decides to believe in Batman's intelligence and better nature.

• Or... Superman does consider killing Batman, desperate as he is. And he subdues Batman, determined as he is to save Ma. But he can't bring himself to hammer down. By his own choice, he won't let Lex make a killer of him.

• Or (and this is a 180 in terms of characterization)... there's a new character in the equation. Someone Superman has befriended throughout the film, whom he's been nurturing and who illustrates his ability to comfort and to help… without powers. Maybe a wheelchair-bound survivor of the MOS battle, a less resentful and more open-hearted mirror to Wallace Keefe? Someone with a non-Lois human perspective who can explain people's fear of Superman, but who understands his intentions and sees his good heart. So when Superman self-sacrifices against Doomsday, “This is my world” doesn't just relate to Lois. It truly means The World, bc Supes made the effort to reach beyond his little bubble and see that mankind is indeed worth saving… as a whole, not just the handful of people on whose safety he holds a personal stake.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda's are ten a penny, but these are alternatives w something quantifiable to add to the message that ideals and values can, indeed, survive a painful journey of self-doubt. The statement is earned through illustrating the character's awareness of what stands to be lost, through realizations that require change and agency, and through a defiant refusal to be defeated morally and mentally -- rather than by mere succession of events in the film's plot, which is often muddled and prone to destroying w the elbow what it builds w the hand. The anvil weighing BVS down is not tone or themes, but its irremediably clumsy plotting.

 

[Vaibow]

Great ideas, i always found it odd in the way the movie presented it, how easy it was to piss superman off and for him to go after batman - i said to myself, the initial 'the bat is dead scene' was all wrong, Superman could quite clearly see Batman was chasing criminals down - why didn't he fly down and say 'you want help, who are we after?' he basically let them get away by treating Batman as the criminal.
This would have shown Bruce that superman was good.. although not convinced no doubt. This would have also shown Clark that Bruce is weird, but means well..... however, it exposes Clark to kryptonite - for the first time - Bruce is like 'ohhh so it does work' and Clark is like thinking 'did this bastard set me up?'. Lex is obviously pissed...he has lost his kryptonite and possibly linked to it.

Clark and Bruce team up to see what lex is up too, whilst keeping an eye on each other.

I just think Clark going over to gotham to fight bruce like a drunk jock was not the way to go.

 

[Aurakles]

I would agree if it wouldnt be about Bruce and "failing" wouldnt be mowing down thugs in a ruthless manner.

The whole no killing thing is a huge part of what makes Bruce batman.
Its the whole fundation of him being Batman, preventing death at the hands of others with all he has.
Everything that drives him is the wish that nobody else has to feel what he felt when his parents died.
Every death he cant prevent, every criminal he captures but kills again and again...is his failure, something he shoulders, something that is his burden that he carries with himself.
His no Killing rule is something elemental inside of the character that when taken away, can not be regained.

Yeah you can have him do it and have redemption, but you cant go back on him breaking something as important as his vow not to kill anybody.
Especially considering in BVS he activly, knowingly kills...its not an accident like the thing with the grenade...no he acts knowing he will end lives.
There is no going back, no making up for that.

To me at least, so there is no way Afflecks batman could or was "my batman".
For that he already reached the point of not returning to his ideals and what makes the character.
Its why for me personally he isnt the batman i always wanted.
My batman was already broken and lost when his parents died.
To me not even at his lowest, Batman activly ends a life because it betrays what the character stands for.

Thought it made more sense to respond here, hope you don't mind.


Batman is very flexible, over the decades he's had hundreds of incarnations, and a few of them have been killers. He kills every now and then in the comics and quite frequently in movies. Yes, most versions would never kill, most versions would also never dance the Batusi but that doesn't invalidate Adam Wests Batman.
Whether Batman should have an iron clad no kill rule is debatable, I can understand you stressed "my Batman", indicating you're aware this is more a matter of personal preference, which I respect.

In terms of redemption it is only possibly if you are guilty, if you have committed crimes, sins, betrayal.
Someone who has been true to themselves and stood by their convictions doesn't need to be redeemed.
Afflecks Batman does betray his core principles, this is why he needs redemption.
Yet despite the terrible things BVS Bruce does, he is not irredeemable. He is still capable of rededicating himself to righteousness, he can still be a force for good. Just like us.

People often find themselves regretting their actions, realising they have done awful things. What should they do in that situation?
They could decide that they've reached the point of no return, that there is no going back, no making up for it, that they have lost something elemental inside of their character that when taken away, cannot be regained. But this would lead to self-hatred and self-destruction.
Isn't it better for them to try to reform? For them to attempt to make a positive difference in the world?

 

[Mani-Man]

Thought it made more sense to respond here, hope you don't mind.

Batman is very flexible, over the decades he's had hundreds of incarnations, and a few of them have been killers. He kills every now and then in the comics and quite frequently in movies. Yes, most versions would never kill, most versions would also never dance the Batusi but that doesn't invalidate Adam Wests Batman.
Whether Batman should have an iron clad no kill rule is debatable, I can understand you stressed "my Batman", indicating you're aware this is more a matter of personal preference, which I respect.

In terms of redemption it is only possibly if you are guilty, if you have committed crimes, sins, betrayal.
Someone who has been true to themselves and stood by their convictions doesn't need to be redeemed.
Afflecks Batman does betray his core principles, this is why he needs redemption.
Yet despite the terrible things BVS Bruce does, he is not irredeemable. He is still capable of rededicating himself to righteousness, he can still be a force for good. Just like us.

People often find themselves regretting their actions, realising they have done awful things. What should they do in that situation?
They could decide that they've reached the point of no return, that there is no going back, no making up for it, that they have lost something elemental inside of their character that when taken away, cannot be regained. But this would lead to self-hatred and self-destruction.
Isn't it better for them to try to reform? For them to attempt to make a positive difference in the world?

I dont mind at all.
You make great points for sure and in terms of a very limited timeframe i agree with you on Afflecks batman.
But that is why im glad we get a new take on Batman instead of continuing with Snyders batman.
Because redemption or not, you cant go back to a time where he didnt broke his one vow, his core promise and what drives him.
My point focuses on the "my batman" thing yeah, because that is too me one major thing that batman needs.
This no kill rule or that he literally tries to save everybody no matter what...those are essential parts "my batman" must have to be Batman.

But i can see the approach of having him break this and fall, seek redemption and move on.
I can see that working in something outside of what i would consider the "main" continuity of Batman...but for my main continuity batman, the no kill rule is something that he can never break.

 

[Aurakles]

I dont mind at all.
You make great points for sure and in terms of a very limited timeframe i agree with you on Afflecks batman.
But that is why im glad we get a new take on Batman instead of continuing with Snyders batman.
Because redemption or not, you cant go back to a time where he didnt broke his one vow, his core promise and what drives him.
My point focuses on the "my batman" thing yeah, because that is too me one major thing that batman needs.
This no kill rule or that he literally tries to save everybody no matter what...those are essential parts "my batman" must have to be Batman.

But i can see the approach of having him break this and fall, seek redemption and move on.
I can see that working in something outside of what i would consider the "main" continuity of Batman...but for my main continuity batman, the no kill rule is something that he can never break.

I'm not as strict as you on the "no kill rule", but I certainly don't want him turning into the Punisher!
I think there are still stories that could have been told with Afflecks Batman, but that time has passed. Interested to see what Reeves has planned.
I like a variety, seeing alternate versions of the character, looking at him from different angles. I like that everyone can have their own different "my Batman".

 

[Vaibow]

I liked Affleck a lot, but JL was too much, it was too much of a shift of tone and realism for me - those jumps and leaps and landing the way he did, compared to the brute force BvS movements.

JL just pumped the breaks for me on a lot of it and ruined Bats, superman and the flash.

 

[DCnightwing23]

I don't think I've expressed this anywhere in these forums, but I just want to reiterate why I think the 'Martha' moment is really powerful and poignant in the movie, at least how I view it:

The movie starts out with Bruce experiencing a dream, he relives the death of his parents and the experience of falling down a cave and being taken to the "light" by bats, Bruce calls this "a beautiful lie". It turns out this is a nightmare that's stuck with him, seeing his parents shot in front of him and his father's last words being "Martha" as he reaches out to her.

That's the real reason Batman doesn't kill Superman at that moment, it shakes him, leaves him frozen, he's been having this reoccurring nightmare of his parents' death and his father's last words to his dying wife, Bruce's mother.

Couple that with Superman yelling "Save Martha", this would understandably shake Bruce, as he couldn't save his own mother, Martha, when he was a child which is something I feel still haunts Bruce.

It's not the gag people make it out to be, it resonates with me to this day and I think it's one of the more powerful elements of the movie that I don't think Zack hit on hard enough. The nightmare flashback should've been weaved into that moment, with Superman yelling "Save Martha" having triggered the moment when Thomas Wayne reaches out to Martha Wayne in their final moments saying "Martha".

 

[RomanticPenguin]

It's probably just cause Superman wouldn't call his mom Martha and Batman mentioned Superman having parents just before that moment.

However human parents compared to alien parents and some people thinking he meant save Martha (wayne) is a thing apparently.

Good idea bad execution imo.

 

[Vaibow]

I don't think I've expressed this anywhere in these forums, but I just want to reiterate why I think the 'Martha' moment is really powerful and poignant in the movie, at least how I view it:

The movie starts out with Bruce experiencing a dream, he relives the death of his parents and the experience of falling down a cave and being taken to the "light" by bats, Bruce calls this "a beautiful lie". It turns out this is a nightmare that's stuck with him, seeing his parents shot in front of him and his father's last words being "Martha" as he reaches out to her.

That's the real reason Batman doesn't kill Superman at that moment, it shakes him, leaves him frozen, he's been having this reoccurring nightmare of his parents' death and his father's last words to his dying wife, Bruce's mother.

Couple that with Superman yelling "Save Martha", this would understandably shake Bruce, as he couldn't save his own mother, Martha, when he was a child which is something I feel still haunts Bruce.

It's not the gag people make it out to be, it resonates with me to this day and I think it's one of the more powerful elements of the movie that I don't think Zack hit on hard enough. The nightmare flashback should've been weaved into that moment, with Superman yelling "Save Martha" having triggered the moment when Thomas Wayne reaches out to Martha Wayne in their final moments saying "Martha".

In theory, in Snyder's mind - it's interesting and a good twist, evoking emotion and ptsd.
But, what we got from an awkward Cavill, his character beaten to ****, poisoned, his mum held hostage, we got this....

"you're letting him kill martha"

That is no way natural.. that is not what Clark would have said, or anyone would have said - now i am assuming he said it to get a response from Bruce, but the execution was terrible...

Of he knew Bruce's back story, when he landed and had to fight Bruce, why didn't he just say 'listen, Lex has my mum, he wants me to kill you - if i don't, she kills my mum... her nam.. is Martha too, you know what i am in right now, Bruce.. i don't want to fight you!'

But instead he then gives a vague...

"find him, save Martha..."

It's only when lois comes in, she almost is talking to the audience at this point.. explaining.

The whole fight was forced and poor Cavill had a shocking script/direction...

 

[Vaibow]

It's probably just cause Superman wouldn't call his mom Martha and Batman mentioned Superman having parents just before that moment.

However human parents compared to alien parents and some people thinking he meant save Martha (wayne) is a thing apparently.

Good idea bad execution imo.

Exactly... i would have had Clark say "my mom is called Martha, she is about to die if you don't let me help, you can help me" then in theory, Bruce would have lost his **** and the ptsd kick in and he be almost on the floor in seizure like fits of rage. I've seen people suffer from ptsd attacks - it isn't pretty.

 

[kguillou]

Man I love rewatching this movie, its such a different kind of cbm from anything thats out there. The look, the feel, the music, the pacing, the subject matter... it feels like Sicario starring Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent. I wish directors cut had gotten its fair shake in theaters. I think it wouldve gotten better reviews but I still think general audiences might’ve been turned off by the tone and pacing of it all.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Da-Scribe]

Lol where is this from?

 

[Erzengel]

Jay and Silent Bob Reboot

 

[Reel-Man]

 

[dc_mos]

Jesse Eisenberg praising BvS script

 

[TonyDiego]

It's probably just cause Superman wouldn't call his mom Martha and Batman mentioned Superman having parents just before that moment.

Superman was trying to say his mother's full name, Martha Kent, so Batman would know who and where to look in his search if he were to die. You can see him try to call out the name "Kent" but the kryptonite and Batman's boot doesn't allow him to.
And Batman reacting the way he did was due to his PTSD being triggered by the name of his mother that is of course associated in his most traumatic moment in his life.
I don't get the bad execution complaint because I don't think you can improve that scene, really. That moment makes me teary-eyed.

 

[NotNickFury]

Well, this is new. Snyder shared some behind-the-scene footage of Affleck doing some push-ups in the mech suit.

Also, seriously, Affleck just has so much energy here during the BvS days and even early JL stuff when Snyder was involved compared to all the reshoots.

Anyway:

 

[Vaibow]

He looks a different guy there.... healthy, happy... jovial