BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - Part 307

[Vaibow]

Jesse Eisenberg praising BvS script

to me, he seems so difficult.

 

[Tg11]

Either way with a BVS Ultimate Edition and a Justice League Snyder Cut...you can still continue on with a shared universe especially considering those films under Snyder's direction actually were great films until Warner Brothers interfered with said movies but if Warner Bros don't interfere with films and actually let their directors make their movies under their vision which is what they should have let Snyder do...then their films would be right on par with Marvel

 

[SupermanFan]

Either way with a BVS Ultimate Edition and a Justice League Snyder Cut...you can still continue on with a shared universe especially considering those films under Snyder's direction actually were great films until Warner Brothers interfered with said movies but if Warner Bros don't interfere with films and actually let their directors make their movies under their vision which is what they should have let Snyder do...then their films would be right on par with Marvel

They weren’t great films on the whole though, they were divisive films. Had WB continued with Snyder the trajectory at the box office would have dropped. JL didn’t flop because of the film we got, it flopped because audiences were turned off by BvS. Take a real look at JLs box office the film actually and legs but what it didn’t have was a great opening weekend.

 

[Tg11]

Apparently looked online and from what I've seen it was discussed too, they had potential for post credits scenes for BVS like multiple scenarios that could have been their post credits scene which could have led up to Justice League in a big way such as:

1- Bruce/Batman meeting up with Silas at STAR Labs or even coming face to face with Victor/Cyborg

2- Lex Luthor in jail basically plotting his revenge

3- Alfred...Irons' character cleaning up the mess in Gotham

4- Someone else would have known Bruce Wayne's secret identity as Batman; Lex crossing paths with another villain in Arkham and telling them about Bruce being The Batman

5- Flash future vision Bruce's Knightmare which could have been touched upon more

6- Something involving Wonder Woman

7- Superman lives; he could have rose up from his grave

8- Bruce/Batman bonding with Martha Kent

9- Lois and Diana as far as something involving the 2 of them


Why A 'BvS' Post-Credits Scene Could've Been Great

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

They weren’t great films on the whole though, they were divisive films. Had WB continued with Snyder the trajectory at the box office would have dropped. JL didn’t flop because of the film we got, it flopped because audiences were turned off by BvS. Take a real look at JLs box office the film actually and legs but what it didn’t have was a great opening weekend.

I do think if WB had released the Ultimate Cut in cinemas it would have made a difference. Not a huge one, as Snyders movies will always be divisive, but a bit of a difference at least. And I don’t think what WB did with JL really helped that much with its own box office personally. But guess we will never know.

 

[SupermanFan]

I do think if WB had released the Ultimate Cut in cinemas it would have made a difference. Not a huge one, as Snyders movies will always be divisive, but a bit of a difference at least. And I don’t think what WB did with JL really helped that much with its own box office personally. But guess we will never know.

I don’t know if it would myself a lot if problems people gas with the film such as mopey Superman, killer Batman etc are still in the YC. The only thing the UC really fixes is the pacing issues and some of the plot holes that were in the TC.

What WB did with Jl didn’t help but it’s opening weekend was down to BvS. Take BVS second week drop off which was massive, people didn’t care for those versions of the characters and as far as they knew JL was a continuation of that. But then take the fact that despite a poor opening weekend the film still made around $600 mil WW it did have legs.

As you said though we’ll never know for sure unfortunately.

I still think the big mistake was sticking with Snyder Beyond MOS. That’s not a knock on Snyder either it’s just they knew the kind of films he made. I don’t think he’s had a critically praised film yet.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don’t know if it would myself a lot if problems people gas with the film such as mopey Superman, killer Batman etc are still in the YC. The only thing the UC really fixes is the pacing issues and some of the plot holes that were in the TC.

What WB did with Jl didn’t help but it’s opening weekend was down to BvS. Take BVS second week drop off which was massive, people didn’t care for those versions of the characters and as far as they knew JL was a continuation of that. But then take the fact that despite a poor opening weekend the film still made around $600 mil WW it did have legs.

As you said though we’ll never know for sure unfortunately.

I still think the big mistake was sticking with Snyder Beyond MOS. That’s not a knock on Snyder either it’s just they knew the kind of films he made. I don’t think he’s had a critically praised film yet.

Yeah but JL’s opening weekend was after the TC of BvS. Only fans would have watched the UC really the GA probably wouldn’t have bothered in the vast majority of cases. Again I don’t think it would have made a huge difference. And you are right the same problems exist in the UC. But overall I just find it a better movie. And despite being 30 mins longer, the UC actually feels shorter because the flow is so much better.

Personally I don’t mind mopey Superman either as plenty of comic stories have had him like that. For Tomorrow especially comes to mind, which I loved and I think Snyder took a lot of influence from.

 

[flickchick85]

The UC still had most of the stuff I hated about the TC, just...more of it. It wouldn't have changed the overall reception at all, imo. There just would've been even more complaints about how torturously long and bloated it was, as if it needed more of those.

 

[SupermanFan]

Yeah but JL’s opening weekend was after the TC of BvS. Only fans would have watched the UC really the GA probably wouldn’t have bothered in the vast majority of cases. Again I don’t think it would have made a huge difference. And you are right the same problems exist in the UC. But overall I just find it a better movie. And despite being 30 mins longer, the UC actually feels shorter because the flow is so much better.

Personally I don’t mind mopey Superman either as plenty of comic stories have had him like that. For Tomorrow especially comes to mind, which I loved and I think Snyder took a lot of influence from.

Oh it certainly is a better movie but I don’t think it changed a lot of people’s minds who didn’t like the TC.

I think the issue with mopey Superman is, whole you and I may be ok with it. The general audience isn’t, and tbh I think there should always be a balance. There’s nothing balanced about his Superman. My biggest issue is Superman is clearly in one place at the end of MOS and Snyder regresses him for the sequel to fit his story. That’s not natural story progression. If they’d done a Superman which we we’re left with in the final moments of MOS in a Batman v Superman film I honestly think the general audience would have been more onboard. Snyder just seems to double down on the things people don’t like about his movies. It’s not very smart from his side at all and WB should have been raising eyebrows when they read the script. Again it all boils down to people not been a fan of Snyder’s takes on these characters and ultimately that’s what turned people off.

The UC still had most of the stuff I hated about the TC, just...more of it. It wouldn't have changed the overall reception at all, imo. There just would've been even more complaints about how torturously long and bloated it was, as if it needed more of those.

Yeah for sure

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Oh it certainly is a better movie but I don’t think it changed a lot of people’s minds who didn’t like the TC.

I think the issue with mopey Superman is, whole you and I may be ok with it. The general audience isn’t, and tbh I think there should always be a balance. There’s nothing balanced about his Superman. My biggest issue is Superman is clearly in one place at the end of MOS and Snyder regresses him for the sequel to fit his story. That’s not natural story progression. If they’d done a Superman which we we’re left with in the final moments of MOS in a Batman v Superman film I honestly think the general audience would have been more onboard. Snyder just seems to double down on the things people don’t like about his movies. It’s not very smart from his side at all and WB should have been raising eyebrows when they read the script. Again it all boils down to people not been a fan of Snyder’s takes on these characters and ultimately that’s what turned people off.



Yeah for sure

I don't think it changed a lot of minds, as they were already made up from the TC. But I think if people had seen the UC in the cinema first and foremost, the complaints would have been less, as we get to see things like Clark investigating, the phone call with his mother, and from the other side more of Batman's descent into darkness, which made him stepping back into the light more powerful for me. Also, pretty big one, Superman helping people after the court bombing, which absolutely shouldn't have been cut for me.

I know mopey Superman isn't to everyone's taste, but previously to that people were complaining Superman was too light, too much of a stiff, too corny and a 'boring character.' I think Snyder tried to give him an edge for those reasons, but ultimately that wasn't what people wanted either. I know what you mean about Snyder doubling down on stuff, but that's why he is a divisive film maker. It's also why I like his movies but evidently a lot of people don't feel that way.

 

[SupermanFan]

I don't think it changed a lot of minds, as they were already made up from the TC. But I think if people had seen the UC in the cinema first and foremost, the complaints would have been less, as we get to see things like Clark investigating, the phone call with his mother, and from the other side more of Batman's descent into darkness, which made him stepping back into the light more powerful for me. Also, pretty big one, Superman helping people after the court bombing, which absolutely shouldn't have been cut for me.

I know mopey Superman isn't to everyone's taste, but previously to that people were complaining Superman was too light, too much of a stiff, too corny and a 'boring character.' I think Snyder tried to give him an edge for those reasons, but ultimately that wasn't what people wanted either. I know what you mean about Snyder doubling down on stuff, but that's why he is a divisive film maker. It's also why I like his movies but evidently a lot of people don't feel that way.

I alluded to that when I said what the UC fixes. It does fix several issues such as you mention with Ck reporting & saving people after the bombing but I still don’t think it fixes the major problems people had and for that reason I think the reception would have been close to the same because when it boils down to it the majority or audiences didn’t care for Snyder’s versions of Batman and Superman.

The thing is though we had a mopey Superman in 2006 and it didn’t work then. The characterisation of Superman continues to be the main problem with these takes. That’s where they’re ultimately failing because they’re not just letting Superman be Superman.

 

[Micromind]

The thing is though we had a mopey Superman in 2006 and it didn’t work then. The characterisation of Superman continues to be the main problem with these takes.

Well, they should have learned from audience reaction to SUPERMAN RETURNS but they didn't, then Superman in Man Of Steel was also like that, then again in Batman V Superman.

That's Three Superman movies with mopey Superman, which basically killed his popularity.

I think a sequel to Man Of Steel was sorely needed where Superman was shown as more upbeat superhero doing some heroic feats before Batman V Superman.

 

[SupermanFan]

Well, they should have learned from audience reaction to SUPERMAN RETURNS but they didn't, then Superman in Man Of Steel was also like that, then again in Batman V Superman.

That's Three Superman movies with mopey Superman, which basically killed his popularity.

I think a sequel to Man Of Steel was sorely needed where Superman was shown as more upbeat superhero doing some heroic feats before Batman V Superman.

Yup a solo Superman film that embraces all the qualities of Superman and could have even tackled the no kill rule that Snyder claimed would be tackled in the sequel would have massively benefited this Superman.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I agree with you both there, we needed an MOS 2 before BvS. But WB wanted the quick route to a shared universe.

For me Superman is aloud to be mopey at times. No one raised as a human could be that positive all the time. I am a positive person by nature, but I have days I hate the world or react badly to something said about me. For me it humanises Superman more. I think the audience isn’t entirely sure what it wants out of Superman’s cinematic characterisation.

 

[Erzengel]

Too much money was spent on BvS and JL even if WB allowed Snyder to finish his condensed opus originally for it to be divisive, niche movies while other movies that cost similiar grossed higher.

 

[Vaibow]

Snyder's justification was always 'but the bigger picture, it'll be brilliant!'' and it never was!

I left batman v superman depressed and confused - I didn't walk out a super hero movie I walked out a weird meta human political biopsy.

A superman movie needs day light, sun beams, you feel uplifted. Heck, even if they had BvS end with a post credit scene with Clark walking away from his grave, as the sun rises with a voice over of the news saying how crime is worse and if only we had a saviour, it gives you hope...

AND DO NOT START A FRIGGING JUSTICE LEAGUE MOVIE WITH A CGI FACE

 

[SupermanFan]

I agree with you both there, we needed an MOS 2 before BvS. But WB wanted the quick route to a shared universe.

For me Superman is aloud to be mopey at times. No one raised as a human could be that positive all the time. I am a positive person by nature, but I have days I hate the world or react badly to something said about me. For me it humanises Superman more. I think the audience isn’t entirely sure what it wants out of Superman’s cinematic characterisation.

Again though it’s about balance he’s mopey for the entirety of BvS. There needed to be moments when he wasn’t. Like at the start, show us this Superman that’s loved but no they don’t. They tell us how loved he was, how great he was but we don’t ever see it. Even when we get the montage of him saving things he looks depressed.

 

[SupermanFan]

Too much money was spent on BvS and JL even if WB allowed Snyder to finish his condensed opus originally for it to be divisive, niche movies while other movies that cost similiar grossed higher.

Exactly

Snyder's justification was always 'but the bigger picture, it'll be brilliant!'' and it never was!

I left batman v superman depressed and confused - I didn't walk out a super hero movie I walked out a weird meta human political biopsy.

A superman movie needs day light, sun beams, you feel uplifted. Heck, even if they had BvS end with a post credit scene with Clark walking away from his grave, as the sun rises with a voice over of the news saying how crime is worse and if only we had a saviour, it gives you hope...

AND DO NOT START A FRIGGING JUSTICE LEAGUE MOVIE WITH A CGI FACE

It does you have to get the balance right.

I still maintain that if JL didn’t have that CG stache and he’d been able to shave a lot of people wouldn’t be as down on JL.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Again though it’s about balance he’s mopey for the entirety of BvS. There needed to be moments when he wasn’t. Like at the start, show us this Superman that’s loved but no they don’t. They tell us how loved he was, how great he was but we don’t ever see it. Even when we get the montage of him saving things he looks depressed.

Oh I agree, but I think Snyder wanted to put him through an emotional wringer as well as the physical one. It’s why he see him overwhelmed with the god worship he gets from some quarters, and the hate and skepticism he gets from others. I used this example regarding his death in the JL thread, but it’s like Superman dealing with the onset of fame in the modern world. By the end he came to terms with it after hearing his fathers story and knowing he had the same anchor in Lois, hence why he was able to make the sacrifice he did.

Personally I loved it, I thought it was bold take and very reminiscent of what would happen if Superman were real in our world. But lots of people didn’t go for it unfortunately. Hence why I agree with your point about there being an MOS2 in between. It could have showed Superman riding the crest of this new wave of recognition, before the inevitable fall in BvS.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Watched the UC again last night as I have been meaning to for a while and all this talk lately has given me the urge. This movie is infinitely re-watchable for me, and considering the length, I find it just breezes by and there is so much I love about the movie and what it has to say. Also, after initially being disappointed by the Doomsday fight, I absolutely love it now. I also think still finding the movie this re-watchable after 4 years is something.

I also find this version of Batman really interesting, more so than I do the character most of the time. Gal kills it as the more world weary WW following her wide-eyed and innocent introduction to mankind in her own movie.

There are also so many Superman scenes I just love to watch as a fan.

 

[Tg11]

Yeah I too watched the UE (Ultimate Edition) on my DCEU marathon of films and the UE actually is a pretty damn good film

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yeah I too watched the UE (Ultimate Edition) on my DCEU marathon of films and the UE actually is a pretty damn good film

I just find it an awesome, epic experience and so different to what the MCU provides (which I also like of course). I said it earlier in this thread but Superman goes through an emotional and physical wringer in this movie, yet still sacrifices himself in the end, and is willing to take a nuke to the face even before that.

 

[Tg11]

If the UE was what we got in theaters then the DCEU would have been on equal footing with Marvel especially because then Suicide Squad and Justice League probably would have been much better films especially if Suicide Squad Extended Cut had come out in theaters instead of what we got and if Justice League Snyder Cut had come out in theaters...both films could have really set the standard for DC with UE for BVS just being the foundation for what the DCEU could have been

 

[Erzengel]

Are you saying that in terms of gross, critical acceptance and/or popularity?

 

[Tg11]

Are you saying that in terms of gross, critical acceptance and/or popularity?

Both