BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[FlawlessVictory]

The Martha moment was one of the best things about the film. If you don't understand how it's beyond a name coincidence that ends the fight, please don't comment. It sucked the life out of my body when that moment happened, because it's not only something I had never pieced together, but the understanding in how it relates to Batman's journey from childhood to the pending execution of a Superman was perfect.

I just love how in Superman's dying moments all he thought of was saving the life of a human being, while Batman was under the belief that he could wipe out all of humanity. It was the name that woke him out of his "current" state but then it progressed to Batman seeing into the soul of someone about to die and having such a simple yet meaningful request that had nothing to do with his own life.

 

[Vortigern99]

I just love how in Superman's dying moments all he thought of was saving the life of a human being, while Batman was under the belief that he could wipe out all of humanity. It was the name that woke him out of his "current" state but then it progressed to Batman seeing into the soul of someone about to die and having such a simple yet meaningful request that had nothing to do with his own life.

 

[shauner111]

He's worse than that, he's a ham-fisted plot device dragged out just about any time the film needs something to happen. Need to introduce kryptonite? Luthor. Reintroduce Zod? Luthor. Get Clark, Bruce and Diana together for the first time? Luthor. Get Superman and Batman together for the first time? Luthor. Get them to fight? Luthor? Introduce Doomsday? Luthor. Tease Darkseid? Luthor.

Even when they could have another character move the story forward, like the senate hearing room scene, it's ha ha, no, Luthor! It gets so bad (IMO of course) by the end that Terrio & Snyder all but hand Luthor a copy of the script with Superman's multiple rescues of Lois highlighted, demonstrating that she's not a real character but an ambulatory magic wand of Superman summoning. So he grabs her, tosses her off a skyscraper and hey presto! Superman appears!

Now all this might possibly work if we had any clear idea of Luthor's motivations, but we don't. Those are all over the place and make less and less sense as each new reason is rolled out. Again, by the end Terrio & Snyder just throw up their hands, quit trying to give an explanation and simply declare him coo-coo for cocoa puffs. It's a criminal waste of an iconic villain.

Correctamundo!

 

[shauner111]

I just love how in Superman's dying moments all he thought of was saving the life of a human being, while Batman was under the belief that he could wipe out all of humanity. It was the name that woke him out of his "current" state but then it progressed to Batman seeing into the soul of someone about to die and having such a simple yet meaningful request that had nothing to do with his own life.

He could have known this without trying to kill him. And it all means nothing once he suddenly trusts Superman right after this scene. Cuz you know, loving another person means they aren't going to do damage to the rest of the world. Facepalm city.

 

[steve4991]

I just love how in Superman's dying moments all he thought of was saving the life of a human being, while Batman was under the belief that he could wipe out all of humanity. It was the name that woke him out of his "current" state but then it progressed to Batman seeing into the soul of someone about to die and having such a simple yet meaningful request that had nothing to do with his own life.

And also, when Lois showed up and told Batman it's his mother he's talking about, it gave Batman the realization that he was about to prevent someone from saving his mother. Something he was never given the chance to do. He took an all powerful being and brought him down to the innocence of a child, crying out for his mother.

He looked himself holding the spear and realized he was no different than the man with the gun that killed his parents.

 

[steve4991]

He could have known this without trying to kill him. And it all means nothing once he suddenly trusts Superman right after this scene. Cuz you know, loving another person means they aren't going to do damage to the rest of the world. Facepalm city.

I think the priority became personal for Batman i.e. saving Martha. It was a personal redemption opportunity for Batman. Whether or not Batman immediately has full trust in Superman is never revealed. The next problem is Doomsday.

I have a strong feeling we'll know if Bruce has an insurance plan for Supes sooner or later....

I mean....it's Batman.

 

[I Am The Knight]

The Martha moment was one of the best things about the film. If you don't understand how it's beyond a name coincidence that ends the fight, please don't comment. It sucked the life out of my body when that moment happened.

Dude, you ok?

 

[Sleiek]

He could have known this without trying to kill him. And it all means nothing once he suddenly trusts Superman right after this scene. Cuz you know, loving another person means they aren't going to do damage to the rest of the world. Facepalm city.

That's not the point of the scene though. Superman never wanted to fight Batman. It was all Batman, he was blinded and doesn't know what he was doing. He was just paranoid and refused to hear Superman's side. That Martha scene just made him realize what he has become. It gave him time to think about not leaning too much on the "1% possibility". Superman hasn't proved him himself at that point yet. It was the sacrifice that made more difference.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

And also, when Lois showed up and told Batman it's his mother he's talking about, it gave Batman the realization that he was about to prevent someone from saving his mother. Something he was never given the chance to do. He took an all powerful being and brought him down to the innocence of a child, crying out for his mother.

He looked himself holding the spear and realized he was no different than the man with the gun that killed his parents.

Exactly, it humanises Superman and makes Batman realise he is about to become the thing he hates. Hence the flashback to his own mothers death.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

I think the priority became personal for Batman i.e. saving Martha. It was a personal redemption opportunity for Batman. Whether or not Batman immediately has full trust in Superman is never revealed. The next problem is Doomsday.

I have a strong feeling we'll know if Bruce has an insurance plan for Supes sooner or later....

I mean....it's Batman.

Exactly.

That's not the point of the scene though. Superman never wanted to fight Batman. It was all Batman, he was blinded and doesn't know what he was doing. He was just paranoid and refused to hear Superman's side. That Martha scene just made him realize what he has become. It gave him time to think about not leaning too much on the "1% possibility". Superman hasn't proved him himself at that point yet. It was the sacrifice that made more difference.

Absolutely, to Batman and hopefully to all the world.

 

[Micromind]

He could have known this without trying to kill him. And it all means nothing once he suddenly trusts Superman right after this scene. Cuz you know, loving another person means they aren't going to do damage to the rest of the world. Facepalm city.

Again, that's not why Batman decides to back down, he realizes that he has been manipulated by Lex and Lex has orchestrated this fight, in order to get Superman killed.

The cheques sent by Wayne Enterprises to Wallace Keefy were never delivered, someone(Lex) wanted him to suffer and buildup his resentment towards Superman , to get a senate hearing, then the incident over there.

Batman realized that Lex was aware of Superman's secret identity as well as his secret identity, he also realized that Lex allowed Batman to get hold of Kryptonite, so that he can use it against Superman.

In light of all thus, Batman realized that his anger was responsible for not accessing Lex's plan. Then there was no reason to carry out what Lex wanted him (Bats) to do. Instead here was an alien who, was raised on Earth, had a mother and who was seen helping people.

There remained that 1 % chance (Superman turning evil.) that Bruce was talking about earlier in his cynical and angry state but he could have dealt with that later, because at that time rescuing Superman's mother was more urgent matter, why ? Because there was something else happening in Metropolis, Lex was using Zod's ship and Kryptonian tech, Superman's presence was needed in Metropolis.

In the end Batman's worst fears about Superman did not matter, Superman had already sacrificed his life to save others.

 

[shauner111]

And also, when Lois showed up and told Batman it's his mother he's talking about, it gave Batman the realization that he was about to prevent someone from saving his mother. Something he was never given the chance to do. He took an all powerful being and brought him down to the innocence of a child, crying out for his mother.

He looked himself holding the spear and realized he was no different than the man with the gun that killed his parents.

Sorry but that's b.s when the guy goes out and starts viciously killing thugs. Thugs that didn't need to be killed, who could have children.

That's not the point of the scene though. Superman never wanted to fight Batman. It was all Batman, he was blinded and doesn't know what he was doing. He was just paranoid and refused to hear Superman's side. That Martha scene just made him realize what he has become. It gave him time to think about not leaning too much on the "1% possibility". Superman hasn't proved him himself at that point yet. It was the sacrifice that made more difference.

It's a major part of the film and that scene up to that point. You can't just toss it to the side just because Bruce is supposed to have this moment about his mother. It's amateur writing. You have to connect the dots. All of them, or it falls apart.

Supes had a chance to tell Batman what was happening, but he was extremely vague, which was done so we can get hot-headed Batman to attack and begin a long fight. Fine. But Bruce was more than paranoid. He was willing to commit murder based on a 1 percent chance. It's more than paranoia. It's stupidity when he won't even hear the guy out, investigate him or start a conversation. "You don't understand!" - Bruce: "I UNDERRRRSTAND!!!!" He's a child.

He doesn't realize anything. Crazy defenders of this film like to point out that Batman realizes what he's become. That would have been great, but he starts killing people immediately after and makes another dumb move by putting trust into Superman all because he believes Supes loves his mommy, and his mommy reminds him of his own. It's illogical, bad writing.

Exactly, it humanises Superman and makes Batman realise he is about to become the thing he hates. Hence the flashback to his own mothers death.

That's another thing. He ALREADY became the thing he hates. He guns down people, murders them, drags their bodies (probably dead) around and uses them to pancake other vehicles/bodies. He brands people knowing it leads to their deaths. BATMAN ALREADY LOST IT. He wasn't about to lose it by killing Superman. He already went there. Then he continues that rampage after the Martha scene.

How does it humanize Superman? It doesn't change Superman one bit, unless you're talking about Batman's point of view.

 

[shauner111]

Again, that's not why Batman decides to back down, he realizes that he has been manipulated by Lex and Lex has orchestrated this fight, in order to get Superman killed.

The cheques sent by Wayne Enterprises to Wallace Keefy were never delivered, someone(Lex) wanted him to suffer and buildup his resentment towards Superman , to get a senate hearing, then the incident over there.

Batman realized that Lex was aware of Superman's secret identity as well as his secret identity, he also realized that Lex allowed Batman to get hold of Kryptonite, so that he can use it against Superman.

In light of all thus, Batman realized that his anger was responsible for not accessing Lex's plan. Then there was no reason to carry out what Lex wanted him (Bats) to do. Instead here was an alien who, was raised on Earth, had a mother and who was seen helping people.

There remained that 1 % chance (Superman turning evil.) that Bruce was talking about earlier in his cynical and angry state but he could have dealt with that later, because at that time rescuing Superman's mother was more urgent matter, why ? Because there was something else happening in Metropolis, Lex was using Zod's ship and Kryptonian tech, Superman's presence was needed in Metropolis.

In the end Batman's worst fears about Superman did not matter, Superman had already sacrificed his life to save others.

You mean Superman and Lois tell him about Lex.

Batman already assumed he had loving parents. Fact. It's in the scene before he tries to murder him. It wasn't a big revelation. The revelation was the name of his mother and that Superman was trying to save her. All fine and dandy, but it's poorly executed when Batman suddenly backs off. He's been killing and branding for months/years, and now he's not going to because Superman loves another more that his own life. Cute for Superman. But has this Bruce Wayne ever seen a well-written crime novel/movie? Has he watched Sopranos or Breaking Bad!? Lmao, jesus...people can do evil things even when they genuinely love their family. Doesn't mean you let them off the hook.

20 years in Gotham as Batman and he doesn't know anything about humanity? He's an idiot. Written that way because of a writer who doesn't know who this character is, and a director who doesn't care who this character is.

Not only that, Superman trusts this psycho to find his mother. Why? Nobody has been able to give me a logical answer. To Superman he's a killer, a nutjob who is irrational in every way. He just had a breakdown. He's not as quick as Superman, but he's gonna let this crazy go and save his mother. He's going by Batman's WORD. Why would you do that!? Suddenly Bruce's word is trustworthy!? This guy even lies to Alfred when he's trying to plan sneak attacks.

The big realization comes at the END OF THE FILM. When Superman dies, he seems to have changed his ways. We'll see how that plays out, but that's when the change happens, not during the Martha scene.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Not only that, Superman trusts this psycho to find his mother. Why? Nobody has been able to give me a logical answer. To Superman he's a killer, a nutjob who is irrational in every way. He just had a breakdown. He's not as quick as Superman, but he's gonna let this crazy go and save his mother. He's going by Batman's WORD. Why would you do that!? Suddenly Bruce's word is trustworthy!?

Batman was his best option at that point. There was no screaming by Martha (her mouth was gagged and later on guns were pointed at her so she didn't let out a peep). She was being held in Gotham, Batman's turf so of course Batman would know best how to find her. And ultimately it was Batman and Alfred that were able to track down her location.

 

[Micromind]

It's a major part of the film and that scene up to that point. You can't just toss it to the side just because Bruce is supposed to have this moment about his mother. It's amateur writing. You have to connect the dots. All of them, or it falls apart.

Bruce's family getting shot is shown in the beginning of the movie where his father's last words were "Martha". Then in the second act he is shown visiting the Wayne's family crypts, where he day dream a huge bat emerging from Martha's crypt. I think it's Bruce's guilt speaking for not being able to bring about any significant change in Gotham, his inability to curb crime, Crime which claimed his family's life.

To him his life and his work (crime fighting) seemed worthless "Life only makes sense when you force it to", which is why he thought that by killing alien (Superman) he will do something worthwhile.

The moment of realization when Superman screams "Save Martha" is supposed to be important because of the fact that they have connected the dots, from the beginning.

 

[The Joker]

Then can I ask your thoughts on why you think it was worth being ridiculed and mocked?

Because the excuse is Batman stops seeing Superman as a god and as human. But how does that suddenly make Superman any less of the potential threat Batman thought he was? Superman had a mother when he was having his destruction fest fight with Zod in MOS. It didn't stop that demolition derby from happening, and people getting killed in the crossfire. What's stopping that from happening again?

It was a stupid moment, and makes Batman look like an idiot. Again. Oh I know the next excuse is Batman was broken and emotionally pushed over the line etc. That's BS. Batman has been pushed to his limits, reached the pits of despair, lost friends and loved ones. It didn't turn him into an irrational murderous moron.

But what can we expect from a director who thinks along the lines of normal comics don't have enough sex and murder, that it was fun to kill off Jimmy Olsen in a cameo etc. Snyder has no idea about these characters or how to write them in any competent and believable way.

 

[shauner111]

Batman was his best option at that point. There was no screaming by Martha (her mouth was gagged and later on guns were pointed at her so she didn't let out a peep). She was being held in Gotham, Batman's turf so of course Batman would know best how to find her. And ultimately it was Batman and Alfred that were able to track down her location.

He should have went with Batman. I would never trust that nutcase's word that he's going to save her. Perfect opportunity for a World's Finest team-up too.

Superman has so much confidence in Batman for some reason, that when the phone rings where luthor is, he gives Lex this confident straight face. It's like to him there's not a 1 percent chance that the phone call is from KGBEAST telling Lex about a burnt corpse called Martha Wayne. He just assumes Batman got there in time.

One percent apparently means 100 percent with this movie.

 

[shauner111]

Bruce's family getting shot is shown in the beginning of the movie where his father's last words were "Martha". Then in the second act he is shown visiting the Wayne's family crypts, where he day dream a huge bat emerging from Martha's crypt. I think it's Bruce's guilt speaking for not being able to bring about any significant change in Gotham, his inability to curb crime, Crime which claimed his family's life.

To him his life and his work (crime fighting) seemed worthless "Life only makes sense when you force it to", which is why he thought that by killing alien (Superman) he will do something worthwhile.

The moment of realization when Superman screams "Save Martha" is supposed to be important because of the fact that they have connected the dots, from the beginning.

Supposed to be. That's the key.

They haven't connected the dots. If they did, Batman wouldn't believe Superman can't wipe out the planet anymore and would still kill his ass, Martha reveal or not, because Batman has already lost his moral code.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

He should have went with Batman. I would never trust that nutcase's word that he's going to save her. Perfect opportunity for a World's Finest team-up too.

Superman has so much confidence in Batman for some reason, that when the phone rings where luthor is, he gives Lex this confident straight face. It's like to him there's not a 1 percent chance that the phone call is from KGBEAST telling Lex about a burnt corpse called Martha Wayne. He just assumes Batman got there in time.

One percent apparently means 100 percent with this movie.

Well sure, 20 years of Batman being active and surely there must be stories of how awesome he has been and the incredible things he has accomplished. Not impossible to believe that Clark would have learned of some of these exploits.

 

[Corko]

Supposed to be. That's the key.

They haven't connected the dots. If they did, Batman wouldn't believe Superman can't wipe out the planet anymore and would still kill his ass, Martha reveal or not, because Batman has already lost his moral code.

You don't like this version of Batman?!? You should have said

 

[Vortigern99]

Because the excuse is Batman stops seeing Superman as a god and as human. But how does that suddenly make Superman any less of the potential threat Batman thought he was? Superman had a mother when he was having his destruction fest fight with Zod in MOS. It didn't stop that demolition derby from happening, and people getting killed in the crossfire. What's stopping that from happening again?

Because Batman now sees that Superman has a human mother, for whom he expressly cares, and whom he wishes to save even as he is about to die. For Batman the revelation is "This Superman is capable of compassion; he's not a heartless enemy of the human species." People either have a conscience, and care about others, or they do not. If Superman cares about his human mother, then it follows through understanding of the human mind that he cares about other human beings, too.

That realization dawning, coupled with Bruce's own feelings of failure
for not being able to make much difference after all, leads him to see that at least he can save this Martha.

It was a stupid moment, and makes Batman look like an idiot. Again. Oh I know the next excuse is Batman was broken and emotionally pushed over the line etc. That's BS. Batman has been pushed to his limits, reached the pits of despair, lost friends and loved ones. It didn't turn him into an irrational murderous moron.

It's not "stupid"; you personally don't like it or understand it or appreciate it. There is a distinction.

But what can we expect from a director who thinks along the lines of normal comics don't have enough sex and murder, that it was fun to kill off Jimmy Olsen in a cameo etc. Snyder has no idea about these characters or how to write them in any competent and believable way.

Snyder was like 13 when he thought that. MoS and BvS are not filled with "sex and murder". Did you blink and miss all the rescuing Superman does in this film? Did you head out for a smoke during the part where he sacrifices his own life to save the world from Doomsday?

 

[Sleiek]

He doesn't realize anything. Crazy defenders of this film like to point out that Batman realizes what he's become. That would have been great, but he starts killing people immediately after and makes another dumb move by putting trust into Superman all because he believes Supes loves his mommy, and his mommy reminds him of his own. It's illogical, bad writing.

He doesn't directly kill anyone. Just like the Nolan Batman trilogy. That is good enough for me.

And oh, thank you for calling us crazy.

 

[shauner111]

Well sure, 20 years of Batman being active and surely there must be stories of how awesome he has been and the incredible things he has accomplished. Not impossible to believe that Clark would have learned of some of these exploits.

In the theatrical cut there is zero hints of this. As far as we know Clark doesn't know his history. All he did was get some photos brought to him of dead prisoners with a bat symbol branded on their skin. Judge. Jury. Executioner.

If you want to go by information that doesn't exist within the film, there's a manual or whatever it is that says Batman has been an urban legend for 20 years. That nobody has a clear shot of him or his batmobile. Where are the good stories other than some violent acts?

Clark is going to be 100 percent sure that Batman rescued his mother, and he's not even gonna go with him to make sure they get her in time? Or make sure Batman actually follows through with his untrustworthy word?

BAD. WRITING. Nearly every scene has it.

 

[The Joker]

Because Batman now sees that Superman has a human mother, for whom he expressly cares, and whom he wishes to save even as he is about to die. For Batman the revelation is "This Superman is capable of compassion; he's not a heartless enemy of the human species." People either have a conscience, and care about others, or they do not. If Superman cares about his human mother, then it follows through understanding of the human mind that he cares about other human beings, too.

That doesn't make one iota of a difference. How does this make Superman any less of the potential threat Batman previously thought he was? He had a human mother in MOS during the Zod fight. Did that make any difference there to the destruction caused and the lives lost? No.

So what's to stop that kind of thing from happening again. Nothing. Hence why the Martha moment is so idiotic.

It's not "stupid"; you personally don't like it or understand it or appreciate it. There is a distinction.

Yes it is stupid. Incredibly stupid.

You BvS defenders need to come up with a new line besides accusing people of not understanding this absurdly stupid movie. There's a reason why that Martha scene is one of the most mocked things in a CBM, and it's got nothing to do with a huge mass case of people not understanding it.

Snyder was like 13 when he thought that.

And he still thinks that way. That's why he took on Watchmen. He said that was more his "scene".

MoS and BvS are not filled with "sex and murder". Did you blink and miss all the rescuing Superman does in this film? Did you head out for a smoke during the part where he sacrifices his own life to save the world from Doomsday?

I know that, I never said they were. I said that's how the guy thinks. Which is why he does moronic things like killing off Jimmy Olsen in a cameo. Apparently that's fun to him. He didn't even want to do MOS originally;

http://www.firstshowing.net/2012/zack-snyder-talks-serious-man-of-steel-and-why-he-took-the-job/

Snyder was like one of the last choices in a long list of directors Nolan wanted for the job. What does Superman rescuing people in this film have to do with the point I made?

 

[Vortigern99]

In the theatrical cut there is zero hints of this. As far as we know Clark doesn't know his history. All he did was get some photos brought to him of dead prisoners with a bat symbol branded on their skin. Judge. Jury. Executioner.

If you want to go by information that doesn't exist within the film, there's a manual or whatever it is that says Batman has been an urban legend for 20 years. That nobody has a clear shot of him or his batmobile. Where are the good stories other than some violent acts?

Clark is going to be 100 percent sure that Batman rescued his mother, and he's not even gonna go with him to make sure they get her in time? Or make sure Batman actually follows through with his untrustworthy word?

BAD. WRITING. Nearly every scene has it.

I would think the fact that Batman just defeated Superman would be testament enough to his skills being sufficient to the task. If this guy can defeat a Kryptonian in hand-to-hand combat (with the aid of the green glowy stuff, natch), then surely he can take on Lex's goons and save Mom. Also, Clark already knows about Batman's expertise in buttkickery from articles about the branding. It is well and widely known that he's more than a match for criminals, that is made abundantly clear in the early portions of the film. "BAD. WRITING" = "DIDN'T. PAY. ATTENTION."