BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[shauner111]

I think it is condescending to ask me if I read Batman comics when I clearly didn't endorse any killing. You should pay more attention to my comments. I don't know how many times I have to explain this.

Apples and Oranges? Hhmm. Agree to disagree. So you say it is okay for Batman to kill when millions of lives are at risk. Fine. But still killing. Kill = Kill not Apples and Oranges. smh.

Carry on.

You asked me what the difference was between the two. I gave you answers. You choose to ignore them. Killing with intent to kill for the hell of it or because it's easier even when there's more options (Affleck minus the torch scene). Killing to save an entire city when there's no other options (Bale/Talia scene). This was the comparison. I gave you the answer. If you don't think there's a difference there, i can't help you any longer.

I apologize for accusing you of not reading the comics. There's a few others that should be asked about that though.

What i should have accused you of instead, was not watching Batman v Superman while paying attention because you did write "He doesn't directly kill anyone." which is not true. This is pretty much what triggered this back and forth.

 

[FunkMiller]

So I read Batman #51.

Goddamnit DC, you let the wrong Snyder go. Gonna miss Greg also.

This needs to be the poster for the Batfleck solo

That five year run had been a thing of beauty. They will be sorely missed. WB should hand over creative reins of Batman to Scott Snyder. The man ****ing gets it 100%.

 

[Sleiek]

You asked me what the difference was between the two. I gave you answers. You choose to ignore them. Killing with intent to kill for the hell of it or because it's easier even when there's more options (Affleck minus the torch scene). Killing to save an entire city when there's no other options (Bale/Talia scene). This was the comparison. I gave you the answer. If you don't think there's a difference there, i can't help you any longer.

I apologize for accusing you of not reading the comics. There's a few others that should be asked about that though.

What i should have accused you of instead, was not watching Batman v Superman while paying attention because you did write "He doesn't directly kill anyone." which is not true. This is pretty much what triggered this back and forth.

Doesn't kill directly meaning he shoots at something that explodes and in turn kills someone. This is just movie logic that I am willing to overlook. Just like I overlooked these things in the Nolan trilogy. Guess that's where the difference is. We just have slightly different interpretation of indirect killing. I am okay with this because this Batman doesn't carry an assault rifle, gets onto the roof beam and opens fire at everyone. He disables all their weapons and takes them down mostly using his fists. I am happy with it.

 

[Aejej]

When there's so much ammunition that's only natural

You're shooting blanks.

 

[shauner111]

Doesn't kill directly meaning he shoots at something that explodes and in turn kills someone. This is just movie logic that I am willing to overlook. Just like I overlooked these things in the Nolan trilogy. Guess that's where the difference is. We just have slightly different interpretation of indirect killing. I am okay with this because this Batman doesn't carry an assault rifle, gets onto the roof beam and opens fire at everyone. He disables all their weapons and takes them down mostly using his fists. I am happy with it.

See, i liked when he did that too. But then he grabs a goon's gun, which is firing off, and he holds it in the guys hand, rotates around the room specifically aiming at like 7 thugs. Aiming at their heads! They all seemed to duck, but that's not the point. He's trying to kill them all. That's why i keep saying "he doesn't have this big realization until Superman dies. It doesn't happen when the Martha scene takes place because he keeps behaving the same way".

 

[Sleiek]

See, i liked when he did that too. But then he grabs a goon's gun, which is firing off, and he holds it in the guys hand, rotates around the room specifically aiming at like 7 thugs. Aiming at their heads! They all seemed to duck, but that's not the point. He's trying to kill them all. That's why i keep saying "he doesn't have this big realization until Superman dies. It doesn't happen when the Martha scene takes place because he keeps behaving the same way".

It's Batman. If he was, they'd be dead.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Snyder's Batman run is good but it stands in the epic shadow of Morrison's amazing run.

 

[Bebop Cowboy]

The Martha scene is dumb as ****. Batman turns a 180 and goes from "I am going to kill Superman because if there is even a ONE PERCENT CHANCE that he is our enemy blah blah blah" to "OH MY GOD YOUR MOM AND MY MOM HAVE THE SAME FIRST NAME!! I AM GOING TO BE YOUR FIEND NOW!!!"

There is absolutely no logic to this whatsoever. It is contrived and lazy ********. Unconvincing ********. You mean to tell me that Batman wouldn't be smart enough to figure out that Superman was raised on earth by an earth woman? That that revelation would be so shocking to him that it would automatically change his hardened cynical worldview of Superman as fast as it does in Batman V. Superman? That is complete ********.

If ****ing Lois Lane could figure out that Superman was raised by an earth woman in Man of Steel I am pretty sure the Worlds Greatest Detective could figure it out. And why would it suddenly invalidate every concern Batman has about Superman? Why would it even matter?

You can't say this movie is "too smart for Marvel fanboys" when it has that kind of crap in it.

I agree with you here because Snyder is not a good film maker,

However... I think it has only a very small part to do with the two men's mother's having the same name... it's the name itself... here's how I saw the scene....

the entire reason a 12 year old Bruce Wayne transformed himself into Batman is because his mother and father were murdered in front of him. His whole existence stems from this fact.

Wayne studied to become a scientist, an inventor, a criminologist, and trained his body into the very peak of human physicality. All to avenge his mother's (and father's) death. The trauma for this man, everything he does is because of that moment. A man who dresses up like a Bat and beats up criminals at night is't exactly 100% sane.

Snyderverse Batman, after seeing the fall of Metropolis and the history of Robin being killed, etc etc. has made him snap, he's taking it out on Superman...

Does he really want to kill Superman?

He has lived his life to a code, that he seems to be breaking more and more every day... He's lost, he's forgotten why he's doing this anymore, he's no longer Bruce Wayne, he's now just Batman, engine of vengeance.

He has now self appointed himself savior of planet Earth ... but does he really want to kill? Does he really want to kill Superman???

He is on the brink of killing someone, he has made his decision, he has put his plan in motion, can he stop what is already in play??

But now that he is faced with actually driving the spear into this man's heart that lies underneath his boot, can he do it? Face to face, cold blooded?

Then he is suddenly reminded of his mother. It's not "oh you're Mother has the same name as mine" - what I saw was that the name of his mother, the last word that came form his dying Father's breathe, snapped him out of his black haze that he has been in. That blinded him to Alfred's advice...

He is suddenly reminded why he became Batman in the first place. That what he has been doing as Batman since the fall of Metropolis has been wrong...

He has an epiphany or hits rock bottom, or whatever it is, in that actual moment.

It's time to be Batman again, be the man that his parents would be proud of again.


That's how I saw the scene... but like I said, a better director could have pushed certain points... Snyder is Snyder...

 

[The Joker]

Great post. The Martha reveal is ridiculous. The lowest point of the movie.

Well one of them. The movie has a few.

You're shooting blanks.

Was I?

Oops no I wasn't!

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Who remembers "oh Superman's going in front of Congress to talk about MOS".

Nope, this scene is starring a jar of piss.

 

[Kane52630]

So much potential just lost...

 

[Bruce Malone]

So much potential just lost...

That quote defines Snyder's whole career.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

That quote defines Snyder's whole career.

That means Snyder at one point had potential.

 

[Bruce Malone]

That means Snyder at one point had potential.

He did.

I think Dawn of the Dead was one of the better modern Horror films and certainly Zombie films.

 

[Marvin]

I agree with you here because Snyder is not a good film maker,

However... I think it has only a very small part to do with the two men's mother's having the same name... it's the name itself... here's how I saw the scene....

the entire reason a 12 year old Bruce Wayne transformed himself into Batman is because his mother and father were murdered in front of him. His whole existence stems from this fact.

Wayne studied to become a scientist, an inventor, a criminologist, and trained his body into the very peak of human physicality. All to avenge his mother's (and father's) death. The trauma for this man, everything he does is because of that moment. A man who dresses up like a Bat and beats up criminals at night is't exactly 100% sane.

Snyderverse Batman, after seeing the fall of Metropolis and the history of Robin being killed, etc etc. has made him snap, he's taking it out on Superman...

Does he really want to kill Superman?

He has lived his life to a code, that he seems to be breaking more and more every day... He's lost, he's forgotten why he's doing this anymore, he's no longer Bruce Wayne, he's now just Batman, engine of vengeance.

He has now self appointed himself savior of planet Earth ... but does he really want to kill? Does he really want to kill Superman???

He is on the brink of killing someone, he has made his decision, he has put his plan in motion, can he stop what is already in play??

But now that he is faced with actually driving the spear into this man's heart that lies underneath his boot, can he do it? Face to face, cold blooded?

Then he is suddenly reminded of his mother. It's not "oh you're Mother has the same name as mine" - what I saw was that the name of his mother, the last word that came form his dying Father's breathe, snapped him out of his black haze that he has been in. That blinded him to Alfred's advice...

He is suddenly reminded why he became Batman in the first place. That what he has been doing as Batman since the fall of Metropolis has been wrong...

He has an epiphany or hits rock bottom, or whatever it is, in that actual moment.

It's time to be Batman again, be the man that his parents would be proud of again.


That's how I saw the scene... but like I said, a better director could have pushed certain points... Snyder is Snyder...

That's it exactly and along with the other reason in conjunction, it comes two fold and that some are seeing only the #samename is really quite telling imo.
And it's not actually a matter of snyder being snyder, it's a matter of it's snyder and it's not spelled out, so why bother putting this kinda thought into it. For you haven't made a single thing up here. This reminds me of people walking out of 12 monkeys citing the ending would have been better with a director who knows clarity. Nah, sometimes hand holding is celebrated, sometimes not.

Again, it's about superman now being a brave man(cause he wasn't at the start of the fight), but also the change in batman himself. Change in self, intrinsic is the strongest most meaningful type of motivation in my opinion, change in circumstance or environment secondary(especially with killing).
We know from the opening that 'martha' was catalyst that created batman that first time, and in this moment, having fallen into the depths of being the bat, 'martha' as dying words have again rekindled that mission. And in this case to so just that, 'save her', be a hero and not some angry monster that is a step away from becoming joe chill. I'm taken back to him hugging that surrogate daughter at the start, the beginning of his vendetta against the superman alien, for I doubt he'd feel as angry towards the meta known as diana angry enough to find reasons to take her out.

 

[HighFivingMF]

Snyder's Batman run is good but it stands in the epic shadow of Morrison's amazing run.

Everything that doesn't stand in the shadow of Morrison's Batman run is also written by Morrison.

 

[The Guard]

PTSD which I assume he has is often triggered by a word

This.

The "Martha" moment is about Batman's trauma being triggered. The movie shows his trauma being triggered, and him having flashbacks to that trauma.

Short of having the character scream "Arghhh! My trauma is currently being triggered!", I'm not sure how much clearer the filmmakers could make this.

That so many people think this sequence and its resolution is just about their mothers having the same name is just...sad.

I get that not everyone knows how PTSD/trauma and related triggers work psychologically, but even if you don't know those terms, you can likely tell Batman is being reminded of something awful that happened to him in the past. Which is the nature of trauma flashbacks.

But no, apparently Snyder put a random shot of the Wayne murder and the ensuing fall into the cave into the film and showed Batman's intense emotional reaction to this memory in order to just...explain that Batman and Superman have mothers with the same first name.

I guess there really needs to be more exposition in future DC films. The subtleties of this movie just aren't being picked up by many.

People can talk and talk about how the "went over your head" defense is nonsense, and how they got it but it just wasn't good, but when people continue to make comments like "Lex Luthor didn't have any motivations" when the dialogue Luthor speaks spells out his motivations almost directly...it's obvious many people are missing things and not picking up many of the elements of the film.

And while there are parts of the film that yes, could have been clearer, there are also parts where the filmmakers made things pretty crystal clear, and people are still misinterpreting some of it. It's an interesting phenomenon.

 

[shauner111]

Who remembers "oh Superman's going in front of Congress to talk about MOS".

Nope, this scene is starring a jar of piss.

Instead it's about some new stupid subplot in Africa. Thank God Lois' notebook caught one of the bullets!

 

[wnjcwjkk]

I agree with you here because Snyder is not a good film maker,

However... I think it has only a very small part to do with the two men's mother's having the same name... it's the name itself... here's how I saw the scene....

the entire reason a 12 year old Bruce Wayne transformed himself into Batman is because his mother and father were murdered in front of him. His whole existence stems from this fact.

Wayne studied to become a scientist, an inventor, a criminologist, and trained his body into the very peak of human physicality. All to avenge his mother's (and father's) death. The trauma for this man, everything he does is because of that moment. A man who dresses up like a Bat and beats up criminals at night is't exactly 100% sane.

Snyderverse Batman, after seeing the fall of Metropolis and the history of Robin being killed, etc etc. has made him snap, he's taking it out on Superman...

Does he really want to kill Superman?

He has lived his life to a code, that he seems to be breaking more and more every day... He's lost, he's forgotten why he's doing this anymore, he's no longer Bruce Wayne, he's now just Batman, engine of vengeance.

He has now self appointed himself savior of planet Earth ... but does he really want to kill? Does he really want to kill Superman???

He is on the brink of killing someone, he has made his decision, he has put his plan in motion, can he stop what is already in play??

But now that he is faced with actually driving the spear into this man's heart that lies underneath his boot, can he do it? Face to face, cold blooded?

Then he is suddenly reminded of his mother. It's not "oh you're Mother has the same name as mine" - what I saw was that the name of his mother, the last word that came form his dying Father's breathe, snapped him out of his black haze that he has been in. That blinded him to Alfred's advice...

He is suddenly reminded why he became Batman in the first place. That what he has been doing as Batman since the fall of Metropolis has been wrong...

He has an epiphany or hits rock bottom, or whatever it is, in that actual moment.

It's time to be Batman again, be the man that his parents would be proud of again.


That's how I saw the scene... but like I said, a better director could have pushed certain points... Snyder is Snyder...

Great interpretation, man, I completely agree. I do wish it would have just a little more in that moment of his hesitancy to kill Superman, somehow show him grappling over wether this is the right thing to do or not

 

[BatLobster]

I honestly do get what they were going for with the Martha moment. I just think it came across as kind of cheap in the sense that, Terrio (or Goyer, I don't know) honed in on the fact that Bruce and Clark's mom happen to have the same name and reverse engineered a major plot point from there. It felt very transparent in that sense. Like, the entire turning point of the film hinges on the fact that their mothers happen to have the same name. Without that coincidence, we can only conclude that Bats would have killed him. Yes, that's not WHY Batman chooses not to kill him and it's about what it triggers for him etc., but it still comes across as a deus ex machina resolution to the fight because that coincidence is essential for the events that follow. If Superman had said, "You have to save my mother", would Bats have stopped? I don't think so. Not based on the way he was portrayed in this film, hell no.

Bottom line, it felt like a pretty rushed resolution of their conflict. And from Superman's standpoint, he must still think Bats is an absolute nutcase. "This guy had an absolute bloodlust for me, wanted me dead but then decided not to kill me because me saying "Martha" really freaked him out...? Okay...superfriends, I guess." And then for Bats to suddenly make a total 180 from his cynicism about good men turning bad and fully trusting Supes as a god-like figure. It was just a lot to swallow. I feel like even if you were on board with it, surely it's understandable why a lot of people just were never going to buy that.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

I wonder how many complained about these. Batfleck blowing up the vehicles (the worst he did) was no worse than any of these.

BATMAN Killcount
[YT]psVIG7YvdjM[/YT]

The Dark Knight Series Killcount
[YT]T0kmVEjPKKM[/YT]

I think it is hilarious, right off the bat (pun intended), Bale Bat says he will not become an executioner but blows up the League's home in the next 5 minutes. Yet, people are fine with that because he didn't kill that farmer (?).

I need to go back and watch BB again, it's been a minute, but isn't it a pretty safe assumption to make that the farmer died in the fire? He was tied up, and Bruce didn't save him. He probably died a much more painful death in the end than getting his head chopped off

 

[Vaibow]

I feel like Snyder should film the trailer first - then release it online.

Then listen to every bit of feedback and advice on the websites and forums and then go for it.

For instance. That majestic shot as he lands in front of capitol hill.

A: Snyder wants Superman to say nothing, a jar of pee freak out holly hunter and have a wayne industries employer get manipulated into being a terrorist.

or

B: Fans want Supes to give a heart felt speech about his actions, his intentions and love for the world. To connect it to MOS problems and kick on with Supes we all know.


Honestly, i feel like Snyder needs to talk to a heck of a lot more fans for their ideas and what each character means to them.

 

[Timebomb]

I agree with you here because Snyder is not a good film maker,

However... I think it has only a very small part to do with the two men's mother's having the same name... it's the name itself... here's how I saw the scene....

the entire reason a 12 year old Bruce Wayne transformed himself into Batman is because his mother and father were murdered in front of him. His whole existence stems from this fact.

Wayne studied to become a scientist, an inventor, a criminologist, and trained his body into the very peak of human physicality. All to avenge his mother's (and father's) death. The trauma for this man, everything he does is because of that moment. A man who dresses up like a Bat and beats up criminals at night is't exactly 100% sane.

Snyderverse Batman, after seeing the fall of Metropolis and the history of Robin being killed, etc etc. has made him snap, he's taking it out on Superman...

Does he really want to kill Superman?

He has lived his life to a code, that he seems to be breaking more and more every day... He's lost, he's forgotten why he's doing this anymore, he's no longer Bruce Wayne, he's now just Batman, engine of vengeance.

He has now self appointed himself savior of planet Earth ... but does he really want to kill? Does he really want to kill Superman???

He is on the brink of killing someone, he has made his decision, he has put his plan in motion, can he stop what is already in play??

But now that he is faced with actually driving the spear into this man's heart that lies underneath his boot, can he do it? Face to face, cold blooded?

Then he is suddenly reminded of his mother. It's not "oh you're Mother has the same name as mine" - what I saw was that the name of his mother, the last word that came form his dying Father's breathe, snapped him out of his black haze that he has been in. That blinded him to Alfred's advice...

He is suddenly reminded why he became Batman in the first place. That what he has been doing as Batman since the fall of Metropolis has been wrong...

He has an epiphany or hits rock bottom, or whatever it is, in that actual moment.

It's time to be Batman again, be the man that his parents would be proud of again.


That's how I saw the scene... but like I said, a better director could have pushed certain points... Snyder is Snyder...

I get what you are saying Bebop but you lost me at he wants to take it out on Superman. Why? I still see no motivation that makes sense. Does he really want to kill him? This movie screams yes! For some reason it appears to be his singular purpose. Still don't buy it. The whole Martha moment is build on a flimsy deck of cards and it doesn't hold up. It what makes what is supposed to be an emotional dramatic moment into a laughable moment that will probably be infamous for how poorly it played out.
Batman spends the entire movie hating Superman because of MOS and his "visions" but he never looks into it deeper than that? You even mention that he trained himself and he did to become a great detective with a superior intellect. He spends his time building and finding ways to kill Superman (the suit and kryptonite weapons) but not investigating him? In MOS Superman was basically fending off an alien invasion and Batman hates him for it. I don't buy it. So maybe it was Robin that broke him. Would his death cause Batman to break? Maybe, but there is no emotional attachment. We don't know the history so it's only speculation. It's bad story form to have a character act irrationally because it can be used as a plot device to have your character act out of character without reason. It's even worse to have them do it for reasons the audience isn't in on. I won't get into the "visions" because it falls into the irrational scenario above or Lex's grand plan (?) Bottom line is that it leads to a fight that I was not emotionally invested in and logic dictates should not have happened. Then to be resolved with the Martha moment. I get what they were going for but it fell flat. As I mentioned, here is a Batman that is so focused on killing Superman for reasons unknown and now those reasons just fall away? You can say it un-brakes Batman but then again why was he broken on the first place. No emotional attachment or reason is the downfall of that scene. I didn't even get into Supermans part in the whole fight but it is along the same lines. Anyways, thanks for reading.

 

[matt47]

I feel like Snyder should film the trailer first - then release it online.

Then listen to every bit of feedback and advice on the websites and forums and then go for it.

For instance. That majestic shot as he lands in front of capitol hill.

A: Snyder wants Superman to say nothing, a jar of pee freak out holly hunter and have a wayne industries employer get manipulated into being a terrorist.

or

B: Fans want Supes to give a heart felt speech about his actions, his intentions and love for the world. To connect it to MOS problems and kick on with Supes we all know.


Honestly, i feel like Snyder needs to talk to a heck of a lot more fans for their ideas and what each character means to them.

But according to Snyder he is a huge comic book fan.

 

[Brother Jack]

Instead it's about some new stupid subplot in Africa. Thank God Lois' notebook caught one of the bullets!

How great of a scene that could have been, to have Superman actually explain himself and, hopefully, reach some kind of understanding with the powers that be. Instead he says nothing. And the explosion ends up have no bearing on the plot because everyone already knows Superman didn't do it.