BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Jaxon]

ok i had problems with BvS. i did not like the movie. but what you wrotte made me hate WB. i never noticed how stupid it was that he called her Martha.

So what should he say to Batman other than "Save Martha Kent?"

Please help me understand.

 

[Eggyman]

So what should he say to Batman other than "Save Martha Kent?"

Please help me understand.

He could call her 'mum'. 'Save my mum.' But I've been known to have some radical thoughts.

 

[Cats]

He could call her 'mum'. 'Save my mum.' But I've been known to have some radical thoughts.

That's way too vague. As much as the "Martha" name is vague (I think he meant to say Martha Kent, but Batman's boot on his throat made it hard to vocalize), "my mum" is worse. Every single person in this world has a mum. Obviously Batman doesn't know Superman is Clark Kent at that point, so it would be a total waste of time to say "mum".

 

[Reek]

Since 2014.

Don't judge her on her color... She still has weaknesses. I'm one of them.

 

[Jaxon]

He could call her 'mum'. 'Save my mum.' But I've been known to have some radical thoughts.

What would make him believe that he thinks Bruce knows who his mum is?

 

[jmc]

Since 2014.

I clearly don't pay enough attention around here, lol.

 

[Eggyman]

What would make him believe that he thinks Bruce knows who his mum is?

Does saying her name mean Bruce knows who she is and give him her location? Does Bruce have info on all women named Martha?

 

[flickchick85]

I clearly don't pay enough attention around here, lol.

Don't feel bad, it took me an embarrassing amount of time to notice it myself, lol. They don't send you a notice or anything that says "You're a mod now!" So I just eventually had this moment of "oh, my name is red! That must be why my layout looks different now...."

 

[Eggyman]

That's way too vague. As much as the "Martha" name is vague (I think he meant to say Martha Kent, but Batman's boot on his throat made it hard to vocalize), "my mum" is worse. Every single person in this world has a mum. Obviously Batman doesn't know Superman is Clark Kent at that point, so it would be a total waste of time to say "mum".

Batman: Martha Kent?! That's the lady Lex is secretly holding hostage!

Come on, how does the name help at all?

 

[Cats]

Batman: Martha Kent?! That's the lady Lex is secretly holding hostage!

Come on, how does the name help at all?

?? You seriously think "my mum" is more informative? lol The denial is strong with this one.

 

[flickchick85]

I think Eggy's point is that NEITHER is remotely informative, but "my mom" sounds more natural. Like, if someone's about to kill me because they don't know the whole story, my last words in desperation would not be to say "Save Martha," because that doesn't give any context, and I don't call my mom Martha. I would say "Save my mom" in hopes that presumably this person would get the hint that A.) I am a person with a mother, and B.) my mother's in trouble and maybe that's why I'm fighting you, and maybe they can then figure it out from there.

 

[Eggyman]

?? You seriously think "my mum" is more informative? lol The denial is strong with this one.

No I don't. This convo just proves how much of a poor plot device this is. We can spend all day polishing this turd. We'll be left with an extremely shiny turd.

I've been told by defenders that the use of her name doesn't matter. What matters is that Bruce learns Superman has a mother because it humanised him. In the light of this joyous nugget, the name isn't needed.

It's not my place to make this scene work better. If it were, I'd go back to square one because it clearly doesn't work for a lot of people.

 

[jmc]

The use of the name matters when the film is trying to present itself in a realistic world. If you want to play that tonal card then that's fine, but don't expect to be given a free pass when you try to crowbar in Clark's mothers name in a situation where it would never naturally occur. There is not a single person in this forum raised in any normal household who in their dying breath would ever call for their mother by her first name. Never.

 

[Jaxon]

The use of the name matters when the film is trying to present itself in a realistic world. If you want to play that tonal card then that's fine, but don't expect to be given a free pass when you try to crowbar in Clark's mothers name in a situation where it would never naturally occur. There is not a single person in this forum raised in any normal household who in their dying breath would ever call for their mother by her first name. Never.

On reflex correct, but not if it's been playing around in his head for the last 36 minutes.

 

[jmc]

On reflex correct, but not if it's been playing around in his head for the last 36 minutes.

No-one would ever say their mother's name in any circumstance like that regardless of their mental state. It is, has and always will be 'Mum'.

 

[Eggyman]

No-one would ever say their mother's name in any circumstance like that regardless of their mental state. It is, has and always will be 'Mum'.

It's very unnatural, just to tie into the Waynes' murder. We both know it. Those who are defensive about the film have their excuses and create new ones when the others collapse. This, I see, has become such a pointless activity. If people don't mind it I'm honestly happy for them, but I'll never buy into such contrived justification.

 

[jmc]

The only way you can justify that situation is if had always called his mum Martha, which isn't unheard of, I knew of kids growing up where they were on first name basis with their parents, but that isn't what was depicted in the films. The issue is it's ingrained in you at a certain point what you call your parents, it becomes a reflex regardless of the situation. That's why you can objectively state it makes no logical sense for him to say 'Martha' in that context.

 

[Reek]

Why couldnt he have said "you have to save my mother..." batman is confused... "save.. Martha..." ... then lois explains and batmans breakdown.

 

[Charlatan]

Saw the movie again last night for the 4th time. I still like it and think it's getting an undeserved amount of hate. It's not perfect but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be either.

 

[Charlatan]

Why couldnt he have said "you have to save my mother..." batman is confused... "save.. Martha..." ... then lois explains and batmans breakdown.

He said Martha because he knew Bruce's mother was named Martha too. He knew his identity and had researched his background so he knew that name would register with him.

 

[AndrewOz]

That is not why Batman wants to "destroy" Superman. This speech is Batman trying to justify to Alfred his reasoning which Batman is unable to articulate because he doesn't realise how far he has gone resulting from years of deaths, betrayals, and non-achievement ("criminals are like weeds").

Superman 's power gives him same feeling of helplessness he felt watching his parents needlessly murdered.

Batman is thinking: "what good am I? what good have I done? This guy can do my 20 years of work in 20 minutes."
He feels helpless, and hopeless, and just like it was taught to him as a child he realises he has to force the issue to change it.

Some people really need to wake up to Batman a bit. He's not a hero, he's an anti-hero who forces his will onto people to shape the world the way he wants to. As has been said, the reason he can win a battle against Superman is because deep down Superman is good and he is not.

Wow. So the problem we have with movie is not what was actually written or displayed on the screen, but that we didn't have access to your completely imagined version of Batman's internal logic and inner monologue.
For which no actual evidence exists.
The smartest man on the planet, if not in all of history, is now fundamentally unable to articulate his motives, even when he's clearly articulating them?
Also, now Batman's motivation to kill Superman is jealousy?
Thanks, your imagined story now definitely helps support my assertion that we had to get Ludicrous Lex in this movie, because established Lex would be indistinguishable motivationally from Snyder's Batman.
Hate him because he's an alien and I'm a self-confessed Xenophobe: Check
Hate him because he challenges my sense of significance: Check
Hate him because he wrecked my stuff while saving the world: Check
Hate him because I must be seen as the most important and the best: Check
Hoard Kryptonite and build a power suit to take him on: Check
Rationalise that I'm really the hero when planning the murder with very poor logic: Check
Wait, how is Snyder Batman NOT the best, most faithful on-screen portrayal of Lex Luthor ever?

And now Batman's not a hero? Well of course he isn't if he's Lex Luthor in a Bat suit.

Namor is generally acknowledged as the first comic book anti-hero. Guess the comic book historians forgot about Batman.
The Punisher is an anti-hero. So is Deadpool.
Back to DC, Black Adam is (occasionally) an anti-hero. So is Bane. And Catman. At least in Secret Six, pre 52.

Snyder, and you obviously, fantasise that Batman is an anti-hero.

Almost a century of documented history and legions and generations of fans would suggest otherwise.
But thank you for taking time out to explain why the rest of us don't get the movie you saw.
Because the movie you were watching only existed inside your own mind.

Well done. You convinced me. I don't know why the rest of the entire world never realised this agout Batman.
Well, sinces 1941 anyway.
Batman's NOT the good guy!! That's why the police work with him. The same way, that they work with the Punisher.
Of course, the JL is full of anti-heroes. Oh and Superman. Because he's good. Batman's not.
That's why they are defined historically as the World's Finest.
Now DC will have to retcon their entire history as you've just managed to explain to them that all their writers just haven't understood the character for over 75 years.
Because of what you invented within your own mind.
Thank you Zack! Thank you Jaxon! Thanks to you, the scales have now fallen from my eyes!!!! (Is this the part of my Knightmare where the para-demon appears? Or is it the Bat-creature?)
Someone around here definitely needs to wake up.

 

[AndrewOz]

He said Martha because he knew Bruce's mother was named Martha too. He knew his identity and had researched his background so he knew that name would register with him.

So Superman is now the detective, NOT Batman? And this all also occurs of screen, of course, or in the extra 90 minutes WB decided not to show us?
It's still moronic for all the reasons expounded on at length in this board.
If it satisfies you, good.
I wish the entire world could be not just satisfied by this film, but amazed by it. Myself included.
Sadly, this movie isn't good enough to do Justice to the two greatest heroes in comic book history.
Having to accept mis-characterisation and off-screen supposition is not a good way to rationalise a films creative choices.

 

[Marvin]

I think Eggy's point is that NEITHER is remotely informative, but "my mom" sounds more natural. Like, if someone's about to kill me because they don't know the whole story, my last words in desperation would not be to say "Save Martha," because that doesn't give any context, and I don't call my mom Martha. I would say "Save my mom" in hopes that presumably this person would get the hint that A.) I am a person with a mother, and B.) my mother's in trouble and maybe that's why I'm fighting you, and maybe they can then figure it out from there.

Dying last words and with a secret identity you have to assume will stay a secret identity for the next 'while'.
A name(particularly a full one) is more informative.

It's like if spiderman was about to be omega beamed and he turned to some cop said hand to choose out of the two options. And with a ticking clock.
#just saying.

 

[Charlatan]

So Superman is now the detective, NOT Batman? And this all also occurs of screen, of course, or in the extra 90 minutes WB decided not to show us?
It's still moronic for all the reasons expounded on at length in this board.
If it satisfies you, good.
I wish the entire world could be not just satisfied by this film, but amazed by it. Myself included.
Sadly, this movie isn't good enough to do Justice to the two greatest heroes in comic book history.
Having to accept mis-characterisation and off-screen supposition is not a good way to rationalise a films creative choices.

yeah it was off screen. but you have to think that he could see him under the mask with the xray vision. or maybe he figured it out after the party when he overheard the com link conversation with Alfred? Anyway after their first encounter he would have done what any good reporter would do and research the background of his subject. so it's not like it's asking you to do mental gymnastics.
just have a passing knowledge of Superman's capabilities and being able to come to a logical conclusion. I thought Batman's detective work was good in this film. He tracked down the White Portuguese. CLoned KGBeast's phone and with the help of Alfred and that clone/phone tracker was able to save Martha. Oh and he tracked down Diana Prince to meet with her and get his harddrive leech/cloning device back. Not to mention weaponizing Kryptonite using his laser.

 

[AndrewOz]

On reflex correct, but not if it's been playing around in his head for the last 36 minutes.

So, since Superman's confrontation with Lex and through the entire fight with Batman, his thought process has literally been "Martha, Martha, Martha, Martha"?
Is he Oedipus as well as Apollo (on a very overcast day) now?
Or is that just another idea that exists solely inside your mind?