All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 5

[The Endless]

Why? because he was lost for the majority of his life? because he struggles with being Superman? Because he has his doubts about what he's doing is the right thing? because he struggles to uphold the ideals he tries to be the paragon of?

Put simply; he's a pessimist rather than an optimist. That's what it boils down to.

There's nothing wrong with internal conflict... But Superman should always be hopeful of a better day. This Superman seems to be stuck in perpetual torment.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Why? because he was lost for the majority of his life? because he struggles with being Superman? Because he has his doubts about what he's doing is the right thing? because he struggles to uphold the ideals he tries to be the paragon of?

Because writing and directing deny this Superman in self-expression, character moments and growth.

 

[samsnee]

Probably why they're entertaining the idea of killing the crossovers off. They are on tough spot indeed. They could soft reboot and make JL 2 introduce a multiverse where our current league all die and lose to a foe in the beginning and we get introduced to the corrected universe JL. Be that with new cast members or whatever. Lol

It doesn’t help that one of their anchors, Batman, is at the end of his career and played by an actor who wanted out after the first movie.

Can you imagine if RDJ acted that way after the first Iron Man?

 

[Tg11]

Probably why they're entertaining the idea of killing the crossovers off. They are on tough spot indeed. They could soft reboot and make JL 2 introduce a multiverse where our current league all die and lose to a foe in the beginning and we get introduced to the corrected universe JL. Be that with new cast members or whatever. Lol

I could live with this if the DCEU did this

 

[FunkMiller]

Why? because he was lost for the majority of his life? because he struggles with being Superman? Because he has his doubts about what he's doing is the right thing? because he struggles to uphold the ideals he tries to be the paragon of?

In Batman v Superman, Superman says the following dialogue:

“No-one stays good in this world.”

If you don’t understand why it is utterly wrong for Superman to utter a line like that, then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Tg11]

Hence why Affleck should have never have been cast as Bruce/Batman to begin with hence probably why they should have gone after a younger actor

 

[RomanticPenguin]

even if he said "i don't know if anyone can stay good in this world, but i'm gonna try" it would've been better

 

[RomanticPenguin]

But there isn't any director of merit out there with a clear vision and passion for Superman.

maybe not vision (yet) but jenkins?

 

[FunkMiller]

even if he said "i don't know if anyone can stay good in this world, but i'm gonna try" it would've been better

Congratulations. You are officially a better writer of Superman dialogue than Terrio or Snyder.

 

[Grommers]

In Batman v Superman, Superman says the following dialogue:

“No-one stays good in this world.”

If you don’t understand why it is utterly wrong for Superman to utter a line like that, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Again...this is progression of the character. I don't think till the end of batman vs superman we have a fully realized superman. Hence he makes the ultimate sacrifice and remains good.

Look, as a fan I'm with ya on the same grounds that the superman we know would never say that. What these movies have gone to explore is how he gets there.

Which is why I think your argument falls short, but leads to a stronger argument that b vs s shouldnt have been the second film in the series.

 

[FunkMiller]

Again...this is progression of the character. I don't think till the end of batman vs superman we have a fully realized superman. Hence he makes the ultimate sacrifice and remains good.

Look, as a fan I'm with ya on the same grounds that the superman we know would never say that. What these movies have gone to explore is how he gets there.

Which is why I think your argument falls short, but leads to a stronger argument that b vs s shouldnt have been the second film in the series.

This argument that he 'isn't Superman yet' as a reason for some of these poor character decisions doesn't bear up, once you realise that who Superman is as a person was instilled in him by Jonathan and Martha Kent when he was a child.

And any iteration of the character that does away with this element is one that fundamentally does not understand who Superman is.

 

[The Guard]

even if he said "i don't know if anyone can stay good in this world, but i'm gonna try" it would've been better

He shows with his actions in the very next scene that he's going to try.

Do actions not matter?

 

[The Batman]

Look, when even greats like Waid and Morrison cannot create versions of Superman that gain cultural traction, then something is clearly awry with Superman.

And of course Waid and Morrison's comics didn't gain "cultural traction". Most comic books/graphic novels don't. Only Watchman and TDKR have really done that.

To add to what I said earlier, not only do most comics not gain cultural traction, for some weird reason DC/WB have yet to make a movie, TV show, or cartoon that captures the spirit of All Star Superman or Superman: Birthright.

Superman: Birthright is the best modern Superman origin story, and is actually nice mix of both Pre and Post-Crisis ideas. All Star Superman is arguably the most acclaimed Superman story of the past 30 years. But instead of using that source material, WB/DC just crib heavily from mediocrity like Superman: Earth One or John Bryne Superman.

 

[brandeezy89]

They did make an All-Star Superman animated film. It actual has one of my favorite Superman scores.

 

[OutOfBoose]

He shows with his actions in the very next scene that he's going to try.

Do actions not matter?

Why is that nonsense line in the film at all? It's a line that belongs to anyone but Superman. Even if he's lost and faces impossible choice, anything would be better than what he uttered before taking off. Remember it's the moment when Superman already "met" his father and received words of "wisdom". After Lex opened his cards. "I'd rather die than choose which life to take, it's my fault things ended up like this". "I hope I can make things right before it's too late." Instead he literally says "welp, can't be helped, I guess, thanks dad".

 

[The Endless]

He shows with his actions in the very next scene that he's going to try.

Do actions not matter?

Aren't his next actions to pointlessly fight Batman?

It's like Snyder mistook Superman for The Plutonian and Batman for Midnighter.

Now that is a Snyder cbm I could get behind... The Authority.

 

[misslane38]

Well now, it's almost as if the last guy did such a bad job that it's turned the Superman franchise into a poison chalice.

You missed the point. People were passing on Superman BEFORE Snyder's involvement. Even he passed at first. This is not a new problem. Heck, even Smallville was its producers', Gough and Millar's, third choice; they initially wanted and pitched (1) a Batman origin series, and (2) a Lois Lane coming of age show. They had to settle on Superman.

Because writing and directing deny this Superman in self-expression, character moments and growth.

All of those things were in the movies. Not liking something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

In Batman v Superman, Superman says the following dialogue:

“No-one stays good in this world.”

If you don’t understand why it is utterly wrong for Superman to utter a line like that, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Consider the context before judging. Its meaning corresponds with Bruce's, "Men are still good. We fight. We kill. We betray one another. But we can rebuild. We can do better. We will. We have to." It's also in line with Luthor's issues with "holes" in the "holy." The idea is that no one is perfect or is immune from faltering. To stay good means to always be and do good, but that is impossible. Superman's challenge in this film is to accept this truth and choose love and hope anyway. That's why his reaching out to Batman and dying for a world that was conflicted about him in conjunction with his acceptance of this world where no one stays good as "his world" was so important and powerful.

 

[The Guard]

Why is that nonsense line in the film at all? It's a line that belongs to anyone but Superman. Even if he's lost and faces impossible choice, anything would be better than what he uttered before taking off.

Because it's a movie, and in movies, characters sometimes say lines of dialogue that crystallize the core conflict they are facing.
Those are often portrayed as moments of despair, or low points.

You don't have to like it or feel that it's in character or feel that it's something the Superman you prefer would do, but the reason it exists structually is pretty clear. A moral gauntlet has been thrown, he is now facing a moral conflict.

Remember it's the moment when Superman already "met" his father and received words of "wisdom". After Lex opened his cards. "I'd rather die than choose which life to take, it's my fault things ended up like this". "I hope I can make things right before it's too late." Instead he literally says "welp, can't be helped, I guess, thanks dad".

He literally says that? When?

Aren't his next actions to pointlessly fight Batman?

No. His next actions are trying to ask for Batman's help.

And the fight is not pointless. He's trying to get Batman to stand down because he has attacked him, and then he's fighting to survive.

 

[The Guard]

To add to what I said earlier, not only do most comics not gain cultural traction, for some weird reason DC/WB have yet to make a movie, TV show, or cartoon that captures the spirit of All Star Superman or Superman: Birthright.

Aside from the All Star Superman cartoon movie, you mean?

 

[Flint Marko]

No. His next actions are trying to ask for Batman's help.

"Hey Bruce, I need your help."

*gets attacked*

"Well I'm basically invulnerable to everything he's attacking me with so far, but I think it's time to throw him around like a rag doll for no real reason."

 

[misslane38]

"Hey Bruce, I need your help."

*gets attacked*

"Well I'm basically invulnerable to everything he's attacking me with so far, but I think it's time to throw him around like a rag doll for no real reason."

He's not initially worried about his getting hurt or being vulnerable but about how Batman's attacks are interrupting attempts to communicate. Superman, therefore, demonstrates his strength ("Stay down. If I wanted it, you'd be dead already"), to further show Batman that he isn't confronting him to fight with an aim to kill and that attempts to do so on Batman's part would be so futile he might as well just stop and hear him out.

 

[The Batman]

Aside from the All Star Superman cartoon movie, you mean?

Yes.

 

[OutOfBoose]

edit.

 

[FunkMiller]

Consider the context before judging. Its meaning corresponds with Bruce's, "Men are still good. We fight. We kill. We betray one another. But we can rebuild. We can do better. We will. We have to." It's also in line with Luthor's issues with "holes" in the "holy." The idea is that no one is perfect or is immune from faltering. To stay good means to always be and do good, but that is impossible. Superman's challenge in this film is to accept this truth and choose love and hope anyway. That's why his reaching out to Batman and dying for a world that was conflicted about him in conjunction with his acceptance of this world where no one stays good as "his world" was so important and powerful.

**** the context. You can’t just justify every poor decision that insipid movie makes by saying ‘it’s in the context of the film’.

Great. Then George Clooney whipping out the bat credit card was a great moment in cinema, because it absolutely fits the context of that scene and movie.

All your arguments stem from the idea that the context in which Superman is placed in Dawn Of Justice is a good one. Literally: ‘there’s nothing wrong with X,Y or Z in Batman v Superman, because it happens in Batman v Superman!’

No. Just no.

Snyder wanted to have a morally grey, indecisive, troubled, Superman, weighed down by the weight of his own godhood. And the only way he could do that was ejecting the strong moral compass the Kents gave him as a child. He reduces Superman’s parents to one dimensional ciphers, who make endlessly poor decisions, just so we can have a Kal-El who doubts himself, and grumps around the place feeling aggrieved that he has to be a superhero.

That’s your context. And like I say. **** it.

 

[misslane38]

**** the context. You can’t just justify every poor decision that insipid movie makes by saying ‘it’s in the context of the film’.

Yes, I can. That's how storytelling works. Parts form a whole. You can't criticize a part without considering the whole, and it amazes me that suggesting such a thing would inspire so strong a response that you feel like using profanity and going on a rant. The context here, in addition to what I already explored and explained, is complemented by June Finch describing good as a conversation and Bruce struggling with his conclusion that no good guys are left early in the film. Good isn't, as Bruce used to wrongly assume, a promise, or at least a promise that can be kept. It's a conversation, a back and forth, which means it's not something that's stable or that can, to go back to Superman's words, stay. Accepting that, but not losing hope that good is a worthy goal to aspire to and protect, is a wise and healthy outlook, I think.

Snyder wanted to have a morally grey, indecisive, troubled, Superman, weighed down by the weight of his own godhood. And the only way he could do that was ejecting the strong moral compass the Kents gave him as a child. He reduces Superman’s parents to one dimensional ciphers, who make endlessly poor decisions, just so we can have a Kal-El who doubts himself, and grumps around the place feeling aggrieved that he has to be a superhero.

This isn't accurate at all. It's a warped take on the film that can serve as a better strawman for your argument and rage, but it's not what I feel is a fair or accurate description and interpretation of the film and its characterizations. Since this is not the MoS or BvS thread, I won't get into the details about why and derail things. In short, agree to disagree.

That’s your context. And like I say. **** it.

I guess I touched a nerve. Wow.