All Things Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 33

[Superherofan123]

Kingdom Come is my favorite as well. Admittedly I haven't read a ton of graphic novels though. I would love to see it made into a movie as well, and i think Snyder could make it work in live action.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

I'm still hoping to see titles such as Kingdom Come and The Blackest Night get the DCAU treatment.

 

[BH/HHH]

Kingdom Come is my favorite as well. Admittedly I haven't read a ton of graphic novels though. I would love to see it made into a movie as well, and i think Snyder could make it work in live action.

Definitely btw welcome to the hype

 

[BH/HHH]

I never really got that excuse. Like I'dbe cool if they just did it in a style similar to TAS, frankly.




Agreed.



That is awesome! I'd love something like that. And for some reason I have ALWAYS liked the black, red, blue, and yellow on Superman. Even in the old Fleischer toons. If I had to "reboot" Superman ala NU52, that's how his suit may look/ It just looks so good on Superman, IMO. Kind of think the black belt with the red leotard would have worked perfectly for MOS, but I'm still happy with what we got.




A Birthright movie would be so, so awesome. And I don't get why that would bother them having the origin out there in that in addition to MOS, they just did Batman: Year One not too long ago, although a few years have passed since Begins now. I'd just like to see someone done well other than Batman, lol.




I think it's a great film! And a perfect template for possibly the greatest live action Batman ever made. It would be cool to see. Still my favorite DCAU film.

Hey K Smith I'm with you, I think they could so it without the artwork having to match

 

[Audrey]

The reason it hasn't been made is the artwork. Alex Ross said as such.

The issues you state can be found in several books. Look at the issues in the Dark Knight Returns? Did that stop them doing that? Nope. Trust me its all to do with the art.

Personally to me its the greatest graphic novel of all-time. Nothing compares to it for me.

Yes, the art is one reason. The second reason is that Mark Waid doesn't like the book and has expressed that he wishes sometimes he had never written it. Waid's tribute to Superman and proudest accoomplishment with Superman was "Birthright." He doesnt consider Kingdom Come a piece of work he's proud of and it's not a book he's proud of. This is common knowledge as it's been discussed openly even with Gail Simone.

Yes, misogyny can be found in way, way too many books. That's a sad reality. Doesn't excuse it or make it right.

I understand nothing compares to it FOR YOU. Totally respect that. I'm sharing a different opinion. Personally, to me, it's a book that relied fridging one of the greatest female icons of all time and then butchering the characterization of another great female icon to tell the story. I cannot ever consider a work of fiction that had to do that to TWO female icons to ever be the "greatest" anything. I don't and cannot excuse serious gender problems in a story like that.

 

[Audrey]

Kingdom Come is my favorite as well. Admittedly I haven't read a ton of graphic novels though. I would love to see it made into a movie as well, and i think Snyder could make it work in live action.

I think that would be a horrible idea for live action as it would require yet another superhero property within a small window to kill off a woman to drive the plot. And i'm not OK with that yet AGAIN.

Because we just got that in The Dark Knight with the killing of Rachel Dawes.

I think most people are aware that we are most likely going to lose Gwen Stacy for similar purposes before this new Spider-Man trilogy is over.

So that's already two huge superhero properties within the last few years who have had to rely on the tired trope of killing off the lover in order to create drama.

A live action movie based on Kingdom Come would require killing off Amy Adams' Lois Lane in a brutal, cliched way so that she was never coming back. It would create a dark AU for the brand new Superman franchise and make it virtually impossible to ever go back again. It would require your entire DC Universe in live action to age 20+_ years. I can understanding wanting it for a stand-alone animation feature but it's the wrong choice for live action franchise that has to CONTINUE for years to come in an entertainment genre where several love intersts have already been killed off in a short window.

Frankly, what I'd like to see Snyder tackle in years to come is the Death of Superman saga. It's still the best selling comic book of all time and it's crazy that some version of it has not been made into a movie yet despite the studio trying many years ago.

To me, the best scenario is ending the second Superman movie (the sequel to Man of Steel) with the Death of Superman and then leading into a Justice League movie. The other heroes come out of the woodwork because Superman is dead and unite. He "rises" from the dead in some capacity. To me...that's your movie. And you can continue from there with franchising. Kingdom Come was meant to be a "warning" tale. It's not a "how-to" guide for live action. Because once you do it...you can't ever go back. That's your dark, damaged world now.

 

[BH/HHH]

Yes, the art is one reason. The second reason is that Mark Waid doesn't like the book and has expressed that he wishes sometimes he had never written it. Waid's tribute to Superman and proudest accoomplishment with Superman was "Birthright." He doesnt consider Kingdom Come a piece of work he's proud of and it's not a book he's proud of. This is common knowledge as it's been discussed openly even with Gail Simone.

Yes, misogyny can be found in way, way too many books. That's a sad reality. Doesn't excuse it or make it right.

I understand nothing compares to it FOR YOU. Totally respect that. I'm sharing a different opinion. Personally, to me, it's a book that relied fridging one of the greatest female icons of all time and then butchering the characterization of another great female icon to tell the story. I cannot ever consider a work of fiction that had to do that to TWO female icons to ever be the "greatest" anything. I don't and cannot excuse serious gender problems in a story like that.

My point is though you're using YOUR opinion as a reason Bruce Timm and co haven't made this yet. The only reason we've gotten is the artwork. Waid couldn't stop them making this its DCs decision.

 

[Audrey]

My point is though you're using YOUR opinion as a reason Bruce Timm and co haven't made this yet. The only reason we've gotten is the artwork. Waid couldn't stop them making this its DCs decision.

I understand. It's not so much that Waid couldn't (or would try) to stop them. It's more about the dialogue that exists now between the author and his work. Waid is one of the most respected writers in the industry. His personal feelings about the book are relevant in the way alot of people within the industry may approach it now. It may not be given as an official "reason" but it's relevant. That's all I was saying.

My point was that we are given the reason of the "art" but there are other factors behind the scenes. Not everyone likes the book. Given Bruce Timm's personal feelings on certain matters, I would venture to guess that he probably doesn't like the story either.

It may or may not be made into an animated movie at some point. Only time will tell. But if it doesn't, there are various reasons why it probably won't be. And art is only one of them even if that's the only reason we are given.

 

[BatmanFanboy]

Sounds like Audrey just wants to toot her feminist horn while completely ignoring so many of the factors that make Kingdom Come one of the best graphic novels of all time. There's not too many superhero stories that accomplish what that novel did on artistic level. The biggest and most universal conflict of all the superhero's is their loved ones will always be in danger. Sometimes blood has to be spilled in the name of growth for that character. Also Diane was pretty badass is Kingdom Come, I don't see why you choose to have such an agenda while reading superhero stories. That's just silly to me.

 

[BH/HHH]

I understand. It's not so much that Waid couldn't (or would try) to stop them. It's more about the dialogue that exists now between the author and his work. Waid is one of the most respected writers in the industry. His personal feelings about the book are relevant in the way alot of people within the industry may approach it now. It may not be given as an official "reason" but it's relevant. That's all I was saying.

My point was that we are given the reason of the "art" but there are other factors behind the scenes. Not everyone likes the book. Given Bruce Timm's personal feelings on certain matters, I would venture to guess that he probably doesn't like the story either.

It may or may not be made into an animated movie at some point. Only time will tell. But if it doesn't, there are various reasons why it probably won't be. And art is only one of them even if that's the only reason we are given.

You know what I actually agree with that I don't think Timm likes it either. But he seems to be moving away from these animated movies so if someone else might decide its a good idea.

 

[Smallville13]

I'd like to see WB's animation studio stop with the comics adaptions and focus their talents on creating new stories.

 

[Superherofan123]

I agree that the death of superman would be great to see on screen, but I don't really agree with te reasoning not to make a kingdom come movie. Just my opinion though.

 

[Golgo-13]

How does Superman shave or get his hair cut? Razors,etc can't cut through his hair....

 

[Anita18]

Sounds like Audrey just wants to toot her feminist horn while completely ignoring so many of the factors that make Kingdom Come one of the best graphic novels of all time. There's not too many superhero stories that accomplish what that novel did on artistic level. The biggest and most universal conflict of all the superhero's is their loved ones will always be in danger. Sometimes blood has to be spilled in the name of growth for that character. Also Diane was pretty badass is Kingdom Come, I don't see why you choose to have such an agenda while reading superhero stories. That's just silly to me.

I didn't take offense to it, as a woman and self-described feminist. Fact is, most of these stories feature male protagonists. And the best way to get under their skin is to kill off their women.

You do see it used with female protagonists as well, although action movies that feature them are much rarer. Their lovers are killed off to create angst. So I don't think it's a "we hate women" thing as it is "most of these characters are men so it's the most dramatic way to create conflict" thing.

 

[Pepito38]

Hi, I tried to clean the bigger version of the scans from Cinema Magazine, I hope you will enjoy it.

 

[Audrey]

Sounds like Audrey just wants to toot her feminist horn while completely ignoring so many of the factors that make Kingdom Come one of the best graphic novels of all time. There's not too many superhero stories that accomplish what that novel did on artistic level. The biggest and most universal conflict of all the superhero's is their loved ones will always be in danger. Sometimes blood has to be spilled in the name of growth for that character. Also Diane was pretty badass is Kingdom Come, I don't see why you choose to have such an agenda while reading superhero stories. That's just silly to me.

Excuse me? Toot my feminist horn?

You know, I'm new to this board but if this is going to be one of those posting experiences that are unfortunately prevelant on other forums where women who dare to share things that make them uncomfortable get talked down to and made to feel unwelcome...I will leave this site and never come back. That is extremely rude behavior.

I'm not ignoring anything. I am allowed to have a different opinion than you and my opinion is just as valid. I am also not the only person to have this opinion.

You are right: the conflict between a hero and his/her loved ones is always going to be a central conflict in a hero narrative. But the way in which this conflict is handled matters to me. As a woman, I don't have as many icons to look up to and the ones that I do have I want to see treated with dignity and given agency. If a woman is going to die, I want it to have some kind of meaning for her OWN life and story as opposed to simply being there to drive the male's plotline without any agency at all in HOW that person dies. I am one of many who was offended with the WAY Waid handled Lois's death in KC to the point that it had to be fixed in the sequels becuase it was done so poorly. Off-page. No agency. Nothing more than a plot device.

Lois Lane is a female character who means a great deal to me. I've looked up to this idea of her as a great career woman who was MORTAL but stil heroic since I was a little girl. I've watched her killed off in 4 different narratives within the last 18 months. I've watched her brutally killed in more AU's at this point than I care to count. It's painful to witness and frankly, it's lazy, bad storytelling. There are other ways to create drama than to consistently kill off the female in the narrative.

The problems with Wonder Woman's characterization in KC are numerous and well-known. Essay upon essay has been written about it. She's written completely out of character which makes sense since Waid admits that he didn't UNDERSTAND her when he wrote the book. She's written overly violent and vengeful and has to be taught about compassion by the men around her.

You know, it may come as a shock to you but I don't choose to have an agenda when I read superhero books. My gender and my experience make it impossible for me to NOT see and be bothered by some of these problems. I don't follow blindly. I think about these things. I use my brain. I consider all sides.

Why is it so offensive to you that I have a different opinion? I'm not saying you have to agree, I'm not even saying that you have to recognize the problems. I'm saying that these are problems FOR ME. I'm also not saying the book has no value. I think it does have value and I think the art is gorgeous. I just can't consider it a "favorite" book and I explained the reasons why. And instead of respecting my different opinion, you make me, as a new poster, feel unwelcome on the board.

 

[DKDetective]

I didn't take offense to it, as a woman and self-described feminist. Fact is, most of these stories feature male protagonists. And the best way to get under their skin is to kill off their women.

You do see it used with female protagonists as well, although action movies that feature them are much rarer. Their lovers are killed off to create angst. So I don't think it's a "we hate women" thing as it is "most of these characters are men so it's the most dramatic way to create conflict" thing.

Precisely, I would even go so far as to say that killing the protagonist's significant other often emphasizes how important they are. Look at the STAS episode "Brave New Metropolis", the whole plotline of that episode is that Lois' death causes Superman to go off the deep end. It establishes how important the support and closeness offered by their relationship is to making Superman who he is and in aiding him in doing his job.

 

[Audrey]

I didn't take offense to it, as a woman and self-described feminist. Fact is, most of these stories feature male protagonists. And the best way to get under their skin is to kill off their women.

You do see it used with female protagonists as well, although action movies that feature them are much rarer. Their lovers are killed off to create angst. So I don't think it's a "we hate women" thing as it is "most of these characters are men so it's the most dramatic way to create conflict" thing.

I think that's part of it. It's also that it's a male dominant culture with very few women in creative control. If there were more women in creative control I think you'd see more encouragement of different plotlines. It's not that they "hate" women. Of course not. It's that when you have a situation where you have basically a huge group of men making creative choices and they've been following the same lazy tropes for years on end sometimes you don't have a different voice to speak up and say, "Hey, maybe we can come up with something better."

Killing off the lover is lazy at this point. It's lazy storytelling. The go-to for every Superman story shouldn't be to just murder Lois in some grisly fashion to make him go crazy.

I totally get that it doesn't offend everyone. But, just for me personally, I just don't enjoy stories that result to that trope anymore. Maybe if Kingdom Come had been a one shot deal I could have. But unfortunately it became a 'how to" guide for writers on how to kill Lois Lane off. And when it gets repeated over and over again it DOES become a gender problem.

 

[Audrey]

Precisely, I would even go so far as to say that killing the protagonist's significant other often emphasizes how important they are. Look at the STAS episode "Brave New Metropolis", the whole plotline of that episode is that Lois' death causes Superman to go off the deep end. It establishes how important the support and closeness offered by their relationship is to making Superman who he is and in aiding him in doing his job.

Except that "Brave New Metropolis" actually did it the right way.

Notice that the entire episode is through Lois's point of view and perspective. She's not just a plot device. She has agency. She has a voice. We HEAR her express how SHE feels. We see her confront Superman and share her belief system. Her role as a voice for justice mattered to the story. She didn't simply exist to cause him pain. That was the RIGHt way to do it.

Smallville's episode "Pandora" was very similar to "Brave New Metropolis" in that way. We see it through Lois's eyes. We see what happened to Clark when he thought she was dead. He wasn't doing so great. But Lois has perspective in the story and she was part of the solution in the story. Again, she didn't just exist in the story to be a dead body.

Both of those stories emphasize how vital Lois is to Superman but Lois has actual perspective and agency in the narrative. She's not just a dead body and Superman is crying over . Do you see the difference?

 

[souperman]

...is there some reason that the EU mags seem to get releases first?

new avatar!

 

[C. Lee]

Sounds like Audrey just wants to toot her feminist horn while completely ignoring so many of the factors that make Kingdom Come one of the best graphic novels of all time. There's not too many superhero stories that accomplish what that novel did on artistic level. The biggest and most universal conflict of all the superhero's is their loved ones will always be in danger. Sometimes blood has to be spilled in the name of growth for that character. Also Diane was pretty badass is Kingdom Come, I don't see why you choose to have such an agenda while reading superhero stories. That's just silly to me.

I had to give you an Official warning once before because of your attacking people who have the audacity to have an opinion that differs from yours. I am not in the mood to put up with it. Post civilly or do not post.

 

[Marvin]

Wow what a cast. I hope they feature some of the villains in the next trailer(otherwise I fear this film's opening is doomed).

More faora plz.

 

[ThePhantasm]

That cast is awesome.

 

[Audrey]

Wow what a cast. I hope they feature some of the villains in the next trailer(otherwise I fear this film's opening is doomed).

More faora plz.

Why do you fear the opening is doomed? The last trailer seemed to get tons of interest.

I would love to see more of Faora though mainly because I'm just so excited to have a female villain in a Superhero movie! And a real villain. Not a villain/love interest.

 

[BH/HHH]

We need the traile noooowwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!