All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

[The Sage]

Zack Snyder's priorities for Man of Steel: Awesome/Cool Superman > Fun Superman

It really had to be that way if the character was ever going to escape the Doonerverse completely

It didn't have to be that way, that way the approach taken. The film could've used some light moments. And that wouldn't have made it like the Donner film. It just at times felt too serious and needed some balance. Hopefully the next film will adjust that.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Why can't Superman be awesome cool and fun. Why does it have to be one or the other. I didn't even think he was that awesome or cool in mos beyond his ability to punch.

Awesome, cool, and fun sounds like a nice combo. I wish Superman can be in the situation in which he can relax in the sequel. HOWEVER, I feel like Superman's overall demeanor was appropriate for the situations he was in.

You can't have Superman smiling when he realizes that Kryptonians are surrounding the town of Smallville, combined with the possible inner regret at leading them there.

But multiple scenes like the first flying scene in MOS are in order.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

It didn't have to be that way, that way the approach taken. The film could've used some light moments. And that wouldn't have made it like the Donner film. It just at times felt too serious and needed some balance. Hopefully the next film will adjust that.

Hopefully scenes at the Daily Planet will help with this in the sequel.

Awesome, cool, and fun sounds like a nice combo. I wish Superman can be in the situation in which he can relax in the sequel. HOWEVER, I feel like Superman's overall demeanor was appropriate for the situations he was in.

You can't have Superman smiling when he realizes that Kryptonians are surrounding the town of Smallville, combined with the possible inner regret at leading them there.

But multiple scenes like the first flying scene in MOS are in order.

Agreed

 

[Marvin]

I wonder if Morrison is a fan of the Xmen films. Given his contribution to the property, would be interesting.

 

[tomoe]

As cliche as it might be I think a montage of Superman in suit saving people and being warm and smiling before Zod shows up would have helped. Then there could be reactions and news reports about this flying savior which addresses the people's reaction acceptance or distrust of this alien that goyer said would be explored but was barely touched upon. Which would culminate when Zod finally shows up and demands Kal, then showing the people being conflicted about whether to turn him in or not after all the good he done. Not enough time in the movie for this? As much as I like the krypton scenes I do think they could have been cut.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

As cliche as it might be I think a montage of Superman in suit saving people and being warm and smiling before Zod shows up would have helped. Then there could be reactions and news reports about this flying savior which addresses the people's reaction acceptance or distrust of this alien that goyer said would be explored but was barely touched upon. Which would culminate when Zod finally shows up and demands Kal, then showing the people being conflicted about whether to turn him in or not after all the good he done. Not enough time in the movie for this? As much as I like the krypton scenes I do think they could have been cut.

The action scenes were well done, but they were all three minutes too long.

So with about 4 or 5 action scenes (it seems like more), cutting a few minutes here and there and replacing them drama/character developing moments would help the movie.

 

[Loki882]

I found plenty of funny moments in the movie (my theatre had 12 to be exact). The movie was not as dark and depressing as people are saying, it just isn't cheesy either.

 

[JangoNate]

As cliche as it might be I think a montage of Superman in suit saving people and being warm and smiling before Zod shows up would have helped. Then there could be reactions and news reports about this flying savior which addresses the people's reaction acceptance or distrust of this alien that goyer said would be explored but was barely touched upon. Which would culminate when Zod finally shows up and demands Kal, then showing the people being conflicted about whether to turn him in or not after all the good he done. Not enough time in the movie for this? As much as I like the krypton scenes I do think they could have been cut.

I still get the feeling that moments were left out so that there was distrust amongst the people because Superman came on to the scene at the same as the other Kryptonians and was part of the cause for the damage. There are so many ways that it could be used in the sequel, that I feel it was n purpose.

Of course, we won't know for sure until 2015.

 

[JangoNate]

I found plenty of funny moments in the movie (my theatre had 12 to be exact). The movie was not as dark and depressing as people are saying, it just isn't cheesy either.

Totally agree. There was laughter in my showings, too.

 

[Milu]

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Keep in mind the guy who made this liked the movie, so don't take it too personally.

 

[DyeLorean]

The action scenes were well done, but they were all three minutes too long.

Yep. I also think they should've slowed down on the zoom-ins, zoom-outs and all that. It was difficult enough to follow a too-fast-for-the-screen Superman.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I found plenty of funny moments in the movie (my theatre had 12 to be exact). The movie was not as dark and depressing as people are saying, it just isn't cheesy either.

There were about 4 broad "gag" moments, and the rest, if present is very subtle.

I don't find MOS to be the bleak, soulless action film some make it out to be, but it isn't a warm/lighthearted film either. It's kind of in the middle, with warm character moments but a dark atmosphere.

The sequel has to go lighter, though I don't think this movie is devoid of fun or charm.

I don't want them to overcorrect and resort to CAMP (mocking the genre/characters), but I do want some more witty lines and humorous situations.

And yes, Trevor is a great example of what camp is. Avengers teeters towards the borderline through its increasingly lighthearted tone, though in the end, it's all a matter of opinion.

 

[Loki882]

Actually, I thought that Ben Kingsley was hysterical in IM 3. The Avengers wasn't anywhere near close to being camp in any way, shape, or form. It had funny moments (Hulk smashing Loki was hilarious) but it balanced it out with drama and character work. MOS was more serious, but it's not like Watchmen or Punisher.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Actually, I thought that Ben Kingsley was hysterical in IM 3. The Avengers wasn't anywhere near close to being camp in any way, shape, or form. It had funny moments (Hulk smashing Loki was hilarious) but it balanced it out with drama and character work. MOS was more serious, but it's not like Watchmen or Punisher.

Campy doesn't necessarily mean "not funny." If anything, it can be downright hilarious. I didn't say that Kingsley wasn't effective in a comedic role.

Just that the role pokes fun at itself. The amazing thing about TA is that it HAS fun with the characters/genre without MAKING fun of it.

 

[Binker]

I wonder what deleted scenes will be on the Blu ray. I wonder if the novel has those scenes and if they were shot.

 

[John Lambert]

That's not what's happening at all. Iron Man and the other Marvel movies came up specifically because of discussion that was launched by my posting thoughts on Man of Steel after having seen the film yesterday afternoon (during which I made mention of said movies). The resultant conversations between myself and others are entirely relevant to MoS because they specifically deal with the scope of the film and how it sets up a wider universe because of its tone and feel.

As for Superman being overshadowed by Batman in his new movie, that's not only very hyperbolic, it's also entirely false at this point since we know nothing whatsoever about the MoS sequel other than that it will somehow involve both Superman and Batman.

Well, technically we also know it will involved Lois, Perry and Martha as well, since their actors are also returning.

 

[John Lambert]

I was going to counter, but I figured it'd be off-topic since that's not the point of this thread.

I'd have to agree with DigificWriter, it's hyperbolic to think Batman would still Superman's thunder when we still don't know much about the film itself. AngryJoe's review of the news was particularly cringeworthy because he thinks Superman would lose should they ever fight. Seeing how realism plays a big part in DC...particularly MOS, is a human really going to be kicking a superhuman's ass...?

I really hope they do not per se fight. However if they do, at least physically, Superman will win, barring kryptonite.

Since we have not met Bruce Wayne/Batman in this world, saying much more than that is really hard. Also, Superman spent most of his actions scenes in MOS facing battle-hardened rivals who understood military tactics, something that he never got exposed to, even though he was a civilian contractor with the military for a time.

 

[tomoe]

I still get the feeling that moments were left out so that there was distrust amongst the people because Superman came on to the scene at the same as the other Kryptonians and was part of the cause for the damage. There are so many ways that it could be used in the sequel, that I feel it was n purpose.

Of course, we won't know for sure until 2015.

Maybe, but I think there would have been distrust even if Zod and company hadnt forced him out of hiding, making them appear at the same time.

 

[John Lambert]

^Totally agreed. I'm glad Snyder mixed it up at the end with putting Superman in the situation he was in. It's just too easy to be able to suck everyone back in the zone with no tough decision to make. God forbid someone actually doesn't play it safe with a superhero at the end and have it be of all people Superman!

And I have no idea what Morrison is talking about with bloodlust. Just because I approve of the ending to MOS doesn't mean I want Superman or any other hero killing people left and right. That is not my desire at all!

They even put in a seen where Clark is getting beat up and refuses to fight back. This shows that generally he does not go for violence.

There is the bar scene, where Clark wrecks the guys big rig. Some people complain about it, but I think they tend to be people who want to complain about MOS and so attack everything they can. If nothing else it undermines the claims the film is without humor. Also, Clark clearly seeks to avoid direct fights.

Zod presented an unwinnable situation.

 

[John Lambert]

I think people tend to take things for granted with Superman. They have a view of him and it is uncompromising. Superman's no kill rule comes out of no where. Nothing in the stories can anyone point to to say this is when he decided not to kill. With Batman it's easy because the character was created from a murder. Batman is a person's reaction to that murder and saying "never again". There is nothing like that for Superman.
I think in that scene, and I am sure we'll see it play out in other movies, we see the genesis of Superman's no kill rule. People say it was a failure of the character and I agree. Superman failed...and I think he knows that. I believe the next time we see him that failure will make him the Superman that will always look for the non lethal way. He will be the guy that pulls his punches until he grows into the Superman that confronted Darkseid in JLU...tired of pulling his punches and feeling like he is living in a cardboard world.
This is the creation of the no kill rule. I think the GA needed to see that considering that have had a heavy dose of heroes who kill for a very long time.

I remember reading something where someone was riping on Superman for not killing to save Lois's life in the comics. This was one of the causes of Lois and Clark ending their engagement and this writer thought the whole situation put Superman in a bad light.

So the "Superman will not kill" meme has its own draw backs.

 

[John Lambert]

Link here : http://m.tmz.com/#Article/2013/07/29/superman-producer-ilya-salkind-new-movie-trash-talks

Salkind also gave us Superman III. He also gave us the truly awful Supergirl movie. He has no room to talk.

In fact, reading defenses of S:TM, they tend to blame the worst parts of the film on Salkind, and say it would have been better if Donner had been left to do it on his won.

 

[John Lambert]

It didn't have to be that way, that way the approach taken. The film could've used some light moments. And that wouldn't have made it like the Donner film. It just at times felt too serious and needed some balance. Hopefully the next film will adjust that.

The film had light moments. The Lois/Superman discussion of the S for one.

 

[John Lambert]

As cliche as it might be I think a montage of Superman in suit saving people and being warm and smiling before Zod shows up would have helped. Then there could be reactions and news reports about this flying savior which addresses the people's reaction acceptance or distrust of this alien that goyer said would be explored but was barely touched upon. Which would culminate when Zod finally shows up and demands Kal, then showing the people being conflicted about whether to turn him in or not after all the good he done. Not enough time in the movie for this? As much as I like the krypton scenes I do think they could have been cut.

It would not have worked at all for the film. They took the disruption that realizing that there is a Super-powered alien among us would cause seriously. In such a situation, Clark needs a truly compelling reason to act in a fully public way. Zod coming is the truly compeling reason.

Maybe I come at this a bit differently because for me the standard is "The Pilot" of "Lois and Clark". We can reduce all the Superman saves in that show to saving Lois Lane.

Anyway, we saw Clark save the oil workers.

When would he have gone public. Lois suppressed her story. She agrees people are not ready. If he tried going public after Zod's announcement people would just arrest him.

This whole complaint is a sign of not judging the film on its own merits, but wanting it to fit in the mold of another film. I am glad they did not follow the mold of STM on this matter.

In the L&C pilot, Superman stops the bomb, lifts the space shuttle, then flies Lois into the planet. I really do not see the advantage of a montage of saves scenes. Anyway, STM had the oddity that despite police were there to see the helicopter save, the news has not reached all police units. That made no sense.

 

[Loki882]

Martha's hilariously non-chalant reaction to Clark's costume. The eighteen wheeler seen. Every scene with Pete Ross and his funny facial reactions. Lois's penile joke to Col. Hardy, etc. Yeah, the film had humor, it was just subtle.

 

[roach]

Salkind also gave us Superman III. He also gave us the truly awful Supergirl movie. He has no room to talk.

In fact, reading defenses of S:TM, they tend to blame the worst parts of the film on Salkind, and say it would have been better if Donner had been left to do it on his won.

any man that gave us Superman flying around the world and turning back time can't talk about Man of Steel.