All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[jaymes_e06]

 

[FlareKnight]

Finally got to pick up a copy of the BD....that was good .

Spoiler

One question that came to mind while watching the movie again. What was up with that "restore your strength" line that Poison told the general when she gave him that strength gas? I know the point of it was misdirecting us to think he was Ares. But what did she mean? Was the general really out of shape and she thought "hey this would be a nice gift"?

Anyways, it's been fun watching the movie again. Wonder Woman was just a really enjoyable film. She really goes through a strong journey as a character. Facing the darkness and yet still being a beacon of hope. That no-man's land scene was awesome. She just steps out there and starts to act. But it isn't just her acting. If she simply saved the day and everyone just sat around it would be less important. She inspired people to stand up and fight with her. That's the kind of heroic quality you love to see. Not just someone who can overpower enemies, but get those around them to take a stand.

 

[Dark Raven]

Freddie Mercury is buying copies of WW from beyond the grave???

And why does he still have his moustache? Wasn't MI:6 delayed filming for several months, which should've allowed him to go clean shaven for JL reshoots?

I see he's content with just the standard BR/DVD release. Nothing fancy.

 

[UncleSam1776]

And why does he still have his moustache? Wasn't MI:6 delayed filming for several months, which should've allowed him to go clean shaven for JL reshoots?

He was done filming JL reshoots before Tom Cruise got injured. No point in shaving if he has to film additional scenes for MI:6 when they start shooting again.

 

[haephestus]

Spoiler

One question that came to mind while watching the movie again. What was up with that "restore your strength" line that Poison told the general when she gave him that strength gas?

If I remember the scene correctly, it opens with a second in command complaining about how the soldiers haven’t eaten, slept, etc in days and the General says that neither has he. In hindsight, setting aside the Ares misdirection, I think Dr Posion was trying to help the General overcome his exhaustion from working 24/7 and not taking the time to eat, sleep, etc.

 

[FlareKnight]

If I remember the scene correctly, it opens with a second in command complaining about how the soldiers haven’t eaten, slept, etc in days and the General says that neither has he. In hindsight, setting aside the Ares misdirection, I think Dr Posion was trying to help the General overcome his exhaustion from working 24/7 and not taking the time to eat, sleep, etc.

Ah, that could make sense. Coming up with something to keep him going during this critical junction so he doesn't collapse from exhaustion. And hey it has the extra bonus of super strength .

Good thinking.

 

[Gee]

Cameron doubles down on his critique...

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/fe...woman-critique-details-avatar-sequels-1043026

 

[Dark Raven]

We need Patty Jenkins to chime in again.

 

[jmc]

I think Cameron explain himself well enough there but I don't agree with him however.

 

[Micromind]

Cameron doubles down on his critique...

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/fe...woman-critique-details-avatar-sequels-1043026

Eh, his version of 'hero' is not the only way to show a protagonist.

You don't have to undergo some trauma or be a flawed individual who has been treated unfairly by others in life, who happens to look ugly and wears loose fitting clothes that fully cover the body to be considered seriously as a Superhero.


Wonder Woman is a character modeled after Greek mythology and Greek (and Roman) warriors (Amazons), so in that respect, she was always going to be good looking and wearing a form fitting armor.

The movie didn't 'sexualize' her looks at all. What Cameron doesn't understand is that sometimes people are just born heroic, instead of circumstances making them a hero.

 

[whenforeverisnt]

Eh, his version of 'hero' is not the only way to show a protagonist.

You don't have to undergo some trauma or be a flawed individual who has been treated unfairly by others in life, who happens to look ugly and wears loose fitting clothes that fully cover the body to be considered seriously as a Superhero.


Wonder Woman is a character modeled after Greek mythology and Greek (and Roman) warriors (Amazons), so in that respect, she was always going to be good looking and wearing a form fitting armor.

The movie didn't 'sexualize' her looks at all. What Cameron doesn't understand is that sometimes people are just born heroic, instead of circumstances making them a hero.

It's also a bummer because to me, Wonder Woman is close enough in narrative and personality to Rose in Titanic. And Rose is heralded as a great feminist character in film and imo is his most feminist character. But he doesn't see it, I guess, because both Diana and Rose are feminine, unlike Sarah Connor (who btw wore tank tops with no bras, had a sex scene and showed boobs so I don't know where he gets this idea Diana is more sexualized than Sarah)

 

[Dark Raven]

Rose was sexualised as well. She was completely nude. And it was James Cameron's hand himself who was sketching pictures of Kate Winslet's naked body. There were no nude life drawings of Diana in WW. So what's he talking about Diana being sexualised compared to his heroines? Was that scene even necessary in Titanic? Or should I say Tit-anic?

 

[Breogan]

LOL Finally, ...what it reminded me of!

 

[Breogan]

lol!

 

[AulaMagna]

They did cast a rather waifish actress who can quote unquote "hang a dress" and "look beautiful in a gown" because, to quote Mark Twight, "the character has to go back and forth and integrate into society", in other words, a strong built woman would stick out like a sore thumb in society and we can't very well have a lady like that play the enigmatic femme-fatale opposite Bruce (Wonder Woman doubled as Selena Kyle in Batman v Superman if you didn't notice)

Hollywood, and the world at large, is still stuck in the "strong BUT sexy" as opposed to the "strong IS sexy" mentality, Cameron is absolutely right about that

 

[Micromind]

https://***********/RealLyndaCarter/status/913528891050008577

Ohhh, Lynda Carter's response to Mr. James Cameron's criticism of WW.

 

[terry78]

I always respect when people give their counterarguments, but social media has kinda diminished the whole thing.

 

[Dark Raven]

They did cast a rather waifish actress who can quote unquote "hang a dress" and "look beautiful in a gown" because, to quote Mark Twight, "the character has to go back and forth and integrate into society", in other words, a strong built woman would stick out like a sore thumb in society and we can't very well have a lady like that play the enigmatic femme-fatale opposite Bruce (Wonder Woman doubled as Selena Kyle in Batman v Superman if you didn't notice)

Hollywood, and the world at large, is still stuck in the "strong BUT sexy" as opposed to the "strong IS sexy" mentality, Cameron is absolutely right about that

But you make it as if there are only those two choices, as does Cameron. It's not like you can only have the Linda Hamilton type or the more feminine type and nothing in between, or as if the two are diametrically opposed to each other.

Cameron's model equally seems outdated. His comments would spur on a host of people like Gina Carano or Ronda Rousey to be WW. I'd hate this blood thirsty and overly tough and masculine warrior which is cliches and old hat. We even saw some of that with Adrianne Palicki's WW with her tough ***** face she did as WW and throwing that pipe through that villain's neck. And this "strong" is what we're supposed to accept as sexy.

Cameron's idea of strong only means one thing in his mind. But strong is sexy can just as equally mean what Gal Gadot was in WW.

 

[Micromind]

LOL Finally, ...what it reminded me of!

Good detective work !

 

[jmc]

But you make it as if there are only those two choices, as does Cameron. It's not like you can only have the Linda Hamilton type or the more feminine type and nothing in between, or as if the two are diametrically opposed to each other.

Cameron's model equally seems outdated. His comments would spur on a host of people like Gina Carano or Ronda Rousey to be WW. I'd hate this blood thirsty and overly tough and masculine warrior which is cliches and old hat. We even saw some of that with Adrianne Palicki's WW with her tough ***** face she did as WW and throwing that pipe through that villain's neck. And this "strong" is what we're supposed to accept as sexy.

Cameron's idea of strong only means one thing in his mind. But strong is sexy can just as equally mean what Gal Gadot was in WW.

It's no denying Gal is attractive, hell even a female friend of mine commented after the film she was stunned at how beautiful she was during the film. I think what's being overlooked here is Cameron's comments are coming from a good place, he thinks it's more empowering for a female action hero to look as messed up as the male heroes get and have no focus on her level of attractiveness. He's also probably coming from the place of having been married to the first female Oscar winner and having worked with other strong female talent, so when he downplays the importance of WW it's because of his own history. None of this makes him 100% right of course, what he's overlooking with WW is that superheroes by their nature are often depicted as the epitome of human perfection physically.

 

[Breogan]

Eh, his version of 'hero' is not the only way to show a protagonist.

Not only that but his vision which he seems to deem the only "correct" way to portray a female action hero, isn't even his vision, yes he inherited the character but before his Sarah Connor, was Ellen Ripley from Ridley Scott's Alien.

I mean you can go all the way back to Zorro's Black Whip on film if you want, which predates them all.
As she is rescuing her version of Steve Trevor, some of the stunt and whip work even influenced Lucas' and Spielberg's Indiana Jones.

And several characters in between, it didn't begin with Cameron and it doesn't end with him.
With everyone celebrating Wonder Woman, he just feels the attention his character once got is threatened. So to stay relevant and remain part of the conversation he has to put down Jenkins' and Gadot's take which celebrates several aspects of a heroine.
He comes off insecure.
As they indicate the whole point is there can be many ways to portray a female heroine on film.
His was never the first, and his will never be the last.

But you make it as if there are only those two choices, as does Cameron. It's not like you can only have the Linda Hamilton type or the more feminine type and nothing in between, or as if the two are diametrically opposed to each other.

Cameron's model equally seems outdated. His comments would spur on a host of people like Gina Carano or Ronda Rousey to be WW. I'd hate this blood thirsty and overly tough and masculine warrior which is cliches and old hat. We even saw some of that with Adrianne Palicki's WW with her tough ***** face she did as WW and throwing that pipe through that villain's neck. And this "strong" is what we're supposed to accept as sexy.

Cameron's idea of strong only means one thing in his mind. But strong is sexy can just as equally mean what Gal Gadot was in WW.

Exactly, well put!

 

[AulaMagna]

But you make it as if there are only those two choices, as does Cameron. It's not like you can only have the Linda Hamilton type or the more feminine type and nothing in between, or as if the two are diametrically opposed to each other.

Cameron's model equally seems outdated. His comments would spur on a host of people like Gina Carano or Ronda Rousey to be WW. I'd hate this blood thirsty and overly tough and masculine warrior which is cliches and old hat. We even saw some of that with Adrianne Palicki's WW with her tough ***** face she did as WW and throwing that pipe through that villain's neck. And this "strong" is what we're supposed to accept as sexy.

Cameron's idea of strong only means one thing in his mind. But strong is sexy can just as equally mean what Gal Gadot was in WW.

For the record, I don't think Wonder Woman was "objectified" in Wonder Woman but I do certainly agree with Cameron insofar as quote unquote "hanging a dress" and looking beautiful opposite Batman were prioritized, I'm paraphrasing Mark Twight. The implication is that strength is unappealing on a woman, you go as far as to equate "strong" with "masculine" which obviously creates an environment where Women are discouraged from pursuing power which is the diametrical opposite of "empowerment", wouldn't you agree

 

[TheComicbookKid]

For the record, I don't think Wonder Woman was "objectified" in Wonder Woman but I do certainly agree with Cameron insofar as quote unquote "hanging a dress" and looking beautiful opposite Batman were prioritized, I'm paraphrasing Mark Twight. The implication is that strength is unappealing on a woman, you go as far as to equate "strong" with "masculine" which obviously creates an environment where Women are discouraged from pursuing power which is the diametrical opposite of "empowerment", wouldn't you agree

Or it side steps the argument that feminine characters can be the standard for strength.

A female basketball player will be described as having skills like MJ or Kobe etc but you won't see a male player as having the non-gendered skills of ball control or off-the dribble play defined in comparison to a WNBA player as a compliment.

Cameron is basically admitting in his mind unless the female character can be compared to a man and be seen as cool on those terms it's not good. So he really doesn't get feminism and exposed himself. The fact people's compliments of Wonder Woman was positive on it's own without worrying about Batman and Superman or Cap. Sarah Connor(under Cameron) is really defined by her contradiction to feminine traits to the Die Hards and such but the character herself in later iterations is kinda trash(Chronicles aside personally) cause that comparison is basically her strength. Once Die Hard and 80s/90s action heroes stopped being the standard, Terminator flounced.

 

[green]

Oh please, doesn't anyone find it odd that Cameron is making these comments at the same time the news of bringing Hamilton back for another Terminator comes out?

 

[Breogan]

^ Exactlly, with all the praise and attention WW has got, he's trying to stay relevant. As if he should be the end all be all on how to portray strong women.
Also he criticizes Carter and Gadot for being in pageants, yet his own idealized leading male "actor" came out of Mr. Universe.