The Dark Knight Rises Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect? - Part 1

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]400837[/split]

 

[MAKAVELI25]

Discuss

 

[BatmanBeyond]

You know, you might be right. Bale's delivery itself also seemed kinda cheesier than it needed to be. I'm wondering what the other takes were like.

BatLobsterRises, you mentioned the "I am going to stop you" line. Which I have to admit, on paper, is cheesy as hell. But Bale's delivery and the way that scene is cut never made me question it. So yeah, though I didn't realize it before, the way the "I came back to stop you" bit is shot is just as much of a reason why it doesn't work as the line itself.

Bale's delivery itself is fine IMO, despite the cheesyness of the line.

The best retort Batman could have had to Bane would be exactly what he said to Ra's in BB: "It ends here". He could have even said "No...it ends here". It would have been a perfect throwback to Begins to boot.

But yeah, the whole exchange is just flat. It would have been better to have both Batman and Bane kind of circling each other in a primal way; while saying there lines and then they can start going at it. I'm really surprised it was shot the way it was.

As badass as that particular line was in Begins, I don't think it really would've worked here. IDK, I was picturing it my head during the TDKR scene and something felt off about it.

One way to make the entire scene/exchange better would've been to have had Batman glide-kick Bane out of the Bat. Although I suppose the mass brawl that was going on would've made such a course of action rather difficult.

One criticism I don't get concerning events happening towards the end of the movie is Catwoman stealing Batman's thunder by being the one to kill Bane (I believe one critic termed it as "there is nothing more emasculating for Batman" or smth along those lines). Umm, hello, he had just beaten the crap out of Bane just 5 minutes before the scene in question. Not to mention the fact that it could be argued that Bruce had essentially defeated Bane when he managed to climb out of the pit, something Bane never did. So in that sense, it's both a physical victory and a psychological one. Quite comprehensive, if I do say so myself.

1st of all: Nothing is perfect

2nd: TDKR is a great movie. Most trilogies only wish they had such a strong last movie.

3th: TDKR is what makes this such an amazing trilogy. It´s a 3th movie that had critical and financial success, wich is pretty rare. That, for itself, iss an achievement. I honestly don´t know what people are complaining about. They should be happy someone did with Batman what probably no one is ever gonna do again.

As clicheic as it is, going with the 'never say never mentality' in this case seems more prudent to me. As much as I love and cherish Nolan's trilogy, I can't exclude the very real possibility that there's probably going to be someone in the future who makes something even better. And it is very likely to be in a way totally different to the way Nolan and Co. handled the mythos.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

It is too much, because Bruce is passed his prime. He could use his resources to help Gotham in other ways, instead he has a bit of a death wish. There can reach a point where enough is enough. Alfred reached that.

Bruce Wayne's prime was never a guarantee of not being killed. He can't give any resources to the Atomic Bomb Deactivation Society. He had to do it himself.

 

[Green Goblin]

Commissioner Gordon is the worst Police Commissioner ever. Sending every cop into the sewers? Blake discovering Bruce's identity by the look on his face?

What... The... Actual... F***?

 

[Kimura]

As clicheic as it is, going with the 'never say never mentality' in this case seems more prudent to me. As much as I love and cherish Nolan's trilogy, I can't exclude the very real possibility that there's probably going to be someone in the future who makes something even better. And it is very likely to be in a way totally different to the way Nolan and Co. handled the mythos.

I didn´t say never. I said "probably", wich is quite possible, having history into account.

I´m very happy with what we got. Nothing is perfect, and every movie could be a little better in some areas. But you gotta let that go to truly appreciate any movie.

I mean, what super hero movies are out there besides TDK that are really superior to Rises? They´re entertaining, but they´re also pretty much "more of the same". Rises isn´t perfect, but at least it tries to be something more than a straight forward and mindless super hero movie. At least we had a plot that got people wondering about what´s going to happen next. At least we had a good character developemnt. At least we had a movie about ideas and not just senseless action. Nolan deserves merit for that. Nolan deserves merit for breaking the mold and doing something that actually makes people think, instead of a simple explosion fest.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

I didn´t say never. I said "probably", wich is quite possible, having history into account.

My bad.

 

[The Joker]

I mean, what super hero movies are out there besides TDK that are really superior to Rises?

Batman Begins, X-Men 2, Spider-Man 2, The Avengers, Iron Man to name a few.

 

[Kimura]

Batman Begins, X-Men 2, Spider-Man 2, The Avengers, Iron Man to name a few.

Thank you for your opinion.

Next.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Superman the movie, Superman II, Spider-man 2, Iron Man, X-Men, to name a few.

 

[Kimura]

Superman the movie, Superman II, Spider-man 2, Iron Man, X-Men, to name a few.

All cool movies.

 

[BatLobster]

TDKR is better than most of those movies, if not all. If we held all those movies to the same scrutiny that TDKR got held to...ouch.

 

[DACrowe]

The only one of those movies I consider better is Spider-Man 2. If people want to talk about a hero looking poor in a film, look no further than Superman II. X-Men has great acting and moments, but really is rather weak as a story and while I like Iron Man, I liked it even better when it was called Batman Begins a few years prior to that.

 

[BatLobster]

I used truly to love Spider-Man 2 but I've slowly developed a distaste for it over the years. It just really milks the "Peter Parker is a pathetic loser" thing for all its worth to the point where it's really annoying and monotonous. Too much comedy at Peter's expense. I think it's a very competently made film and the train sequence is one of my favorite action setpieces in a CBM. But now that I'm older and don't relate to the angst/coming of age aspect of it anymore, I have much less use for the movie than I once did.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I used truly to love Spider-Man 2 but I've slowly developed a distaste for it over the years. It just really milks the "Peter Parker is a pathetic loser" thing for all its worth to the point where it's really annoying and monotonous. Too much comedy at Peter's expense. I think it's a very competently made film and the train sequence is one of my favorite action setpieces in a CBM. But now that I'm older and don't relate to the angst/coming of age aspect of it anymore, I have much less use for the movie than I once did.

That loser Peter aspect you mention, and in all honesty 99% of Raimi's "comedy," is what ruins the whole trilogy for me. I was sick of loser Peter in SM1 go figure.

 

[C. Lee]

I mean, what super hero movies are out there besides TDK that are really superior to Rises? They´re entertaining, but they´re also pretty much "more of the same". Rises isn´t perfect, but at least it tries to be something more than a straight forward and mindless super hero movie. At least we had a plot that got people wondering about what´s going to happen next. At least we had a good character developemnt. At least we had a movie about ideas and not just senseless action. Nolan deserves merit for that. Nolan deserves merit for breaking the mold and doing something that actually makes people think, instead of a simple explosion fest.

You see, that's the thing about opinions...no two are exactly the same. You ask what superhero movies are superior to TDKR....in my opinion almost all others are. I'm not right and you're wrong...I'm not wrong and you're right...we are just two different people with different OPINIONS.

 

[BatLobster]

Well, there is a difference between having an opinion and trying to be objective about something. Although, the latter is where it gets a bit hazy on here and a lot of debates/arguments are started.

For instance, I personally have grown to love TDKR the most, while at the same time seeing TDK as the "best" film of the bunch.

 

[Green Goblin]

I used truly to love Spider-Man 2 but I've slowly developed a distaste for it over the years. It just really milks the "Peter Parker is a pathetic loser" thing for all its worth to the point where it's really annoying and monotonous. Too much comedy at Peter's expense. I think it's a very competently made film and the train sequence is one of my favorite action setpieces in a CBM. But now that I'm older and don't relate to the angst/coming of age aspect of it anymore, I have much less use for the movie than I once did.

Yea College Peter was NOT a loser.

 

[Green Goblin]

Still quite like Spidey 2 though

 

[Kimura]

You see, that's the thing about opinions...no two are exactly the same. You ask what superhero movies are superior to TDKR....in my opinion almost all others are. I'm not right and you're wrong...I'm not wrong and you're right...we are just two different people with different OPINIONS.

You´re right. But it gets tricky when someone tries to justify what makes X movie better than Y movie, other than "it entertained me more". You have the right to say Green Lantern is better than TDKR. And how is anyone gonna prove that you´re wrong? They simply can´t. It´s your preference.

But, exactly, what makes Green Lantern better than TDKR? You can say you love it more. But, does it have a richer plot? Does it have a better soundtrack? Does it have a better casting? Better acting? Better cinematography?

 

[BatmanBeyond]

You´re right. But it gets tricky when someone tries to justify what makes X movie better than Y movie, other than "it entertained me more". You have the right to say Green Lantern is better than TDKR. And how is anyone gonna prove that you´re wrong? They simply can´t. It´s your preference.

But, exactly, what makes Green Lantern better than TDKR? You can say you love it more. But, does it have a richer plot? Does it have a better soundtrack? Does it have a better casting? Better acting? Better cinematography?

I don't think anyone can objectively answer 'yes' to any of those questions IMO. I also think expectations play a really important part in how we perceive a particular movie (or any form of art, for that matter). I mean I had next to no expectations for Green Lantern and the first time I saw it I thought it was okay. Certainly not as bad as all the critics were panning it out to be. I can understand why genuine fans of the character and people who had expectations for the movie in general were disappoited by it though. The undeniable truth is that it turned out to be a spectacular flop and any plans for a sequel to it are probably scratched for the time being. Even though I'm not a great fan of the character, I would've liked for them to have another go at it (and maybe they will in the future).

My expectations for TDKR were probably the highest I've ever had for a movie, especially after the experience I had with TDK at the cinema (best one in my life) and the dozens of times I had watched both BB and TDK in the years before TDKR's release. Add to that all the hype and speculation concerning it from these forums (which I joined in 2011) and it was obviously impossible for the movie to even reach the high bar I had set for it, never mind exceed it. Needless to say I was pretty disappointed with TDKR after seeing it in cinemas. I can't say I ever outright hated it, but like I said, I was pretty disappointed with it. Discussing and debating aspects of the movie on these forums has certainly made it grow on me though and the fact that it is an excellent, satisfying conclusion to the trilogy was never in doubt, even after my initial disappointment.

 

[NateHevens]

Hi! Been a long time since I last posted here... school and work and life and all that...

So am I the only person in the world who just hates Raimi's Spiderman trilogy, even the second one?

Anyways...

When I first saw TDKR, I had nothing but love for it. I saw it in the theater so many more times, including in true Imax. Then I bought the deluxe Blu-Ray box with the broken mask collectible, and watched it again, and have watched the entire trilogy in a row more than once.

My opinion of TDKR has sunk, unfortunately. I really wish it had been two movies instead of one. This Cinema Sins video pretty much sums up all of the problems I have with the film (although it includes other "sins" I don't agree with, as well). For a quicker summary: it should have been a two-part film. There are literally so many questions raised by the film itself that go completely unanswered.

Like... really... how in the heck did Bruce get back into Gotham, anyway?

Overall, though, I don't think it kills Nolan's trilogy. It was still, after everything, a good movie, and the trilogy itself is, as others have said, my trilogy. I will always treasure Nolan's Batman as the trilogy that broke the superhero-films curse, and as the trilogy that saved Batman.

Rises has its problems, no doubt. But, for me, personally, this trilogy is perfect. Not objectively perfect, of course, but for me it is.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I kinda agree with this, it was ruined by the ending and John Blake not being Dick Grayson

 

[Rorschach2012]

X-Men being better than TDKR? Whaaaa? Maybe X2, depending on your taste, but X-Men, noo.. They were still trying to figure the whole superhero movie thing out then.

I love X-Men, it's a good movie, but it is dated and has some extra cheesy moments

 

[Visiting Arkham]

While I don't think Rises is a terrible film, in response to the question, I think it does prevent the trilogy from being perfect.

The Dark Knight was such a brilliant chapter in the story, that I wish Rises would have built on that and created something new, as opposed to depending on the first two films so much. Unfortunately, I think what really prevented the third film's success was the untimely death of Heath Ledger. We all know that the Joker would have been in the concluding chapter based on how The Dark Knight was received, but it wasn't meant to be.