The Dark Knight Rises Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect? - Part 1

[kvz5]

Blake should not have taken Bane out. Same with Bruce. Having Catwoman do it was perfect IMO. It made perfect sense. She doesn't have those rules. She needs to save Batman from Bane at that point because she was the thing that almost killed him originally when Bane took him out. Like said before, it also humiliates Bane and his large ego. Which is what he deserved. He gets a second lasting death, he doesn't get some powerful triumphant death.

 

[AnneFan]

Shauner gets it spot on with all his points. I also like with Selina, she's one of Gotham's citizens. Bane wanted these people locked away in their houses afraid, while his bomb ticked down. She decided to say no to his rule.

 

[milost]

I just caught a bit of this last night and found another problem with it.

No sooner are the Special Forces and Captain Jones introduced into the city are they, in a matter of minutes, killed off. It's completely ludicrous how Blake and Gordon are like, "you haven't told them about the major threat, huh", and seconds later, we're in a new scene where . . . Blake is taking these guys across the city, out of secrecy, to have Fox and Talia tell them themselves.

That's nuts. For 3 months the cops have been undercover, not talking to anyone, remaining hidden with their secret meetings. So what do they do when the government and Special Forces come to help? They blow their cover by going to the refugee houses just so they can have Wayne Enterprises employees tell them what's going down. Ridiculous. Gordon and Blake couldn't have just told them right then and there about the situation? They clearly knew? Makes no sense. But nope, "you didn't tell them?", "nah, let's have the Wayne Enterprises peeps tell them in person, the folks that, you know, activated the bomb in the first place and are probably being watched closely by Bane".

This of course gets all of them killed, except John Blake. It's things like that that make me think, "why include them at all, would a revision or two have really hurt?".

 

[Anita18]

How would the Special Forces have believed them if it hadn't come from the horse's mouth? They were Wayne employees - of course they had to be hiding out and on the good guys' side, barring Tatelia, of course.

 

[milost]

How would the Special Forces have believed them if it hadn't come from the horse's mouth?

Whaaaaaaat?


Remember, in that scene, the trust issue isn't the Special Forces believing the rag tag GCPD group, it's the other way around. I don't know the specific quote, but Gordon and Blake say something along the lines that "you know who we are, how do we know you're not one of Bane's men".

The Special Forces BELIEVE them, they're cops with a badge. With their Intel, why wouldn't they know or believe Commissioner Gordon, Blake, Foley, etc.? They're there to help. Like I said, that's not even how the scene plays out, the Special Forces trust them.

It makes zero sense for Blake to be like, "yo Gordon, did you tell them about the situation?" and take these CRUCIAL men all the way across the city so that Fox and Tate can tell them themselves, which is exactly what Gordon does, "There's someone you have to meet". They could easily just tell them right then and there. "The core is unstable and is about to blow in two months". I mean, they tell them about the cops being able to be freed underground, don't they? Time is of the essence, and the cops know it. Wouldn't that be the most immediate thing to bring up?

The only reason it's there is to get Captain Jones and the other members killed and quickly sweep them out of the story. Which isn't really appropriate or needed considering the Special Forces guys are introduced and killed off in literally 2 minutes or so. Or was that all so audiences could see them being hanged off a suspension bridge and have Bruce throw a rock at the tv?

Unlike Begins and Dark Knight, Gordon ain't too bright in this one. He leads thousands of cops into a trap all at once and puts the Special Forces into a trap the day they arrive into Gotham.

 

[Ryan]

Simply put...yes. Tried watching it for the first time in ages, but found myself skipping quite a bit of scenes. I think there were real moments of brilliance in the movie that harkened back to the earlier films, but they were far and few between.

I did notice something that I hadn't thought of before. Both women come to aid of their respective counterparts. Talia saves Bane from Batman in the hall, and Catwoman saves Batman from the grips of Bane.

 

[milost]

Talia saves Bane from Batman in the hall, and Catwoman saves Batman from the grips of Bane.

Yup.

And from what I remember (in a time when we assumed that Cotillard was Talia from the Pittsburgh shoot), back in 2011 most of us called that whole angle of Batman and Catwoman vs. Talia and Bane with the respective female characters coming to the rescue.

 

[shauner111]

You're really grasping at straws with your recent posts milost. We can name a dozen different things like that in the previous 2 movies. We've done that to death. And I don't even see what the big deal is. Hearing it from the horses mouth made perfect sense to me. Trusting them that theyre cops is one thing, but theyre not going to trust every word that comes out of their mouth as if Blake/Gordon know exactly what they're talking about. The fact is that they DONT know all the details, only Fox, Bruce and Talia would. Going to the source felt logical plus, it's a movie, of course they need to kill these men off in a way that shows how ruthless Bane is (hanging them) that could get Bruce angry (by watching it on tv). Creating a story is a constant puzzle of how to move point A to point B and have it flow. There's a lot of cases like this in Begins and TDK where you pick it apart endlessly but it's useless. It's still an action movie afterall.

 

[milost]

You're really grasping at straws with your recent posts milost. We can name a dozen different things like that in the previous 2 movies. We've done that to death. And I don't even see what the big deal is. Hearing it from the horses mouth made perfect sense to me. Trusting them that theyre cops is one thing, but theyre not going to trust every word that comes out of their mouth as if Blake/Gordon know exactly what they're talking about. The fact is that they DONT know all the details, only Fox, Bruce and Talia would. Going to the source felt logical plus, it's a movie, of course they need to kill these men off in a way that shows how ruthless Bane is (hanging them) that could get Bruce angry (by watching it on tv). Creating a story is a constant puzzle of how to move point A to point B and have it flow. There's a lot of cases like this in Begins and TDK where you pick it apart endlessly but it's useless. It's still an action movie afterall.

I'm not grasping at anything. I just called what I noticed.

The difference is, Batman Begins and The Dark Knight aren't full of exposition montages that are pretty much the source of these kinds of problems. TDKR? It's chock full of them. Watch that scene, I'm sure it's on youtube. Not only are we being introduced to these Special Forces guys, we're following an expositional montage of them LITERALLY walking to what could easily be discussed in two sentences. Everything from Bane's take over, the cement explosives, to Talia's origin is presented this way to us.

All Blake and Gordon have to do is tell them that the bomb's core was removed and because of this, the bomb will go off anyway in a couple of months. That, and that Wayne Enterprises is the cause (which, everyone knows anyway). That's all it takes. I find it hilarious that Blake is telling the Captain this, as they're walking through streets and finally, in the refugee home. It's just jarring. He's literally walking them to their deaths, even after the story and writers establish how dangerous it is to be a figure of authority (or do you guys not remember the chat Blake has with the priest and the boy's home?).

Begins has some of this in the beginning with the training and The Dark Knight with Rachel's note and the scene at the end with Cordon's speech to his son. That's the only time they really play with time, but you know what? It doesn't present any glaring, logical issues with the story. Structurally, it makes sense to flash back as Ra's (or Ducard) is telling things to Bruce that, Wayne has already experienced. It makes sense to end the Dark Knight with a flash forward showing the destruction of the signal.

It DOESN'T make sense to hold information from the Captain while telling him what we needs to know as they walk into the lion's den. It just doesn't.

Sure, we could nitpick the Joker knowing when to pull the bus in, or the fact that his hair went from brown to green. Sure we could discuss the logistical issues of the bombs being placed in the hospital? But you know what? If we list them, I guarantee TDKR has waaaaaaaaaaay more. It's just so sloppily written in order to move things forward. That's all it does.

And besides. It's much easier to look past issues from the films you like. I'm not thinking of problems with Dark Knight because I love it. I don't see what is wrong with Batman Begins as much because I think it's great. TDKR? Can't get it into it so obviously those of us with problems will be in a negative mood. It doesn't work for us, hence are complaints. So this "Begins and Dark Knight has problems too" card doesn't work.

 

[shauner111]

Begins and TDK have the same exposition. And I don't have to watch that clip on youtube. Ive seen each movie like a hundred times, I can write the entire script down for you right now.

Do they really know all this info? And do the special forces guys trust their word on this? It's a huge matter, it's not something a couple of cops can just say and then the forces dudes will be like ALRIGHT cool. Nope. They need to go to the source. What if Fox and Miranda have more information on the matter? They need to see them. And I already explained why this scene had to happen, it's to get from point a to point b. To see Bane's ruthlessness, to see Bruce losing it, etc. All movies do this at one point or another.

Bombs being placed in the hospital? Yeah, or how about on the ferries? I can nitpick TDK all day if I had the energy.

 

[milost]

Do they really know all this info? And do the special forces guys trust their word on this?

Gordon and Blake know. Blake asks Gordon if he told them. Hell, WE SEE, Blake starting to tell Captain Jones about it before the enter the room with Fox and Talia.

Or does Fox and Talia tell it better? I guess Blake and Gordon are too lame brained to say "there's more to this situation, the bomb was created by Wayne Enterprises and the core was removed so we only have a couple of months before it blows".

And why would the Special Forces NOT trust these officers? If you know the film by heart and watched it a hundred times, you'd see in that scene that Captain Jones is taking everything at value. He's following Blake, he's listening, gathering info. They're there to HELP them. The mistrust comes from Gordon and Blake initially, not the other way around. Based on what we see from the film and story, there's NOTHING to suggest that they don't trust what a Commissioner and a Detective are telling them. Nothing.

You also made me think of something by bringing this issue of trust up. If Gordon and Blake don't really trust these guys initially, WHY the hell would they be so eager to give the location of two Wayne Enterprises employees who have info about the orb? That's not even my beef with it though, as that's a minor quibble. This, "we'll have Q and the secret villainous tell these guys in person" is the problem.

It's a huge matter, it's not something a couple of cops can just say and then the forces dudes will be like ALRIGHT cool. Nope. They need to go to the source. What if Fox and Miranda have more information on the matter? They need to see them.

Captain Jones knows the situation and Gordon and Blake have the information. It's completely absurd that these officers and agents (who are in the minority of order in the city) who are all about secrecy and undercover, would go straight to the source of all these problems by visiting the people that created/activated the machine. Especially when GORDON AND BLAKE HAVE THE ANSWER THAT FOX AND TALIA OFFERS THEM.

And we can't say, "well maybe Blake and Gordon told them before they went and they're just checking up with Tate and Fox" because we actually see Blake telling the Captain some of the info (only about Wayne, not about the core) IN the ridiculous flash forward. This means in the initial meeting at the kitchen or whatever, Blake and Gordon are mum. That's stupid.



Grasping at straws would be, "why wouldn't Gordon pick up his phone when Blake is trying to call him to tell him about the explosives. What is he doing in his hospital bed that Blake has to leave a voice mail". This though? It's completely valid. Especially when you have this new plot idea and it's extinguished no sooner than it's introduced. More than half of the half baked ideas and secondary characters are utilized in this pointless way in the story. That's why it is always being criticized in that regard.

 

[Victarion]

Whaaaaaaat?


Remember, in that scene, the trust issue isn't the Special Forces believing the rag tag GCPD group, it's the other way around. I don't know the specific quote, but Gordon and Blake say something along the lines that "you know who we are, how do we know you're not one of Bane's men".

The Special Forces BELIEVE them, they're cops with a badge. With their Intel, why wouldn't they know or believe Commissioner Gordon, Blake, Foley, etc.? They're there to help. Like I said, that's not even how the scene plays out, the Special Forces trust them.

It makes zero sense for Blake to be like, "yo Gordon, did you tell them about the situation?" and take these CRUCIAL men all the way across the city so that Fox and Tate can tell them themselves, which is exactly what Gordon does, "There's someone you have to meet". They could easily just tell them right then and there. "The core is unstable and is about to blow in two months". I mean, they tell them about the cops being able to be freed underground, don't they? Time is of the essence, and the cops know it. Wouldn't that be the most immediate thing to bring up?

The only reason it's there is to get Captain Jones and the other members killed and quickly sweep them out of the story. Which isn't really appropriate or needed considering the Special Forces guys are introduced and killed off in literally 2 minutes or so. Or was that all so audiences could see them being hanged off a suspension bridge and have Bruce throw a rock at the tv?

Unlike Begins and Dark Knight, Gordon ain't too bright in this one. He leads thousands of cops into a trap all at once and puts the Special Forces into a trap the day they arrive into Gotham.

It makes sense that the Special Forces would be brought to Wayne Enterprises. They were dealing with a nuclear weapon; it wouldn't be plausible if they didn't try to get as much information as possible about the bomb before acting. I thought Foley led the cops into a trap?

The scene you mention about Bane having Jones and his men hanged is showing more of Bane's revolution; same as the montage during Bane's speech at the prison and the scenes in Crane's courtroom.

 

[Anita18]

Cops =/= scientists. I wouldn't trust our secretary to explain the kind of research we do, to someone who actually needs to know. The more information the Special Forces guys had, the more someone on the outside had to go on to try and fix the situation.

Don't get me wrong, TDKR has a lot of flaws (being clunky and failing to show some passage of time is a big one), I can't believe someone's actually bringing this up as one of them.

 

[shauner111]

It makes no sense, this nitpick. it's very simple. Like the others said above, it's a nuclear weapon. Are they going to take the cops word for everything? Even if he believes Blake, it means nothing until he talks to the people in charge to confirm what he's saying. On their way to Wayne Enterprises is Blake supposed to talk to this guy about how beautiful the flowers should be when spring comes?

 

[BatLobster]

Exactly. I never had an issue with the logic of having these special forces guys hear this critical information straight from the horse's mouth, from someone scientifically qualified. This was information that hypothetically changed the nature of the situation completely. It's not like Blake just suddenly came out of hiding just for that, he'd been out on the streets for months, communicating with the cops in the sewers, dropping off the gasoline at the Orphanage, etc. He wasn't afraid to be out and about.

Also, plot-wise, it helps establish that there's a leak/mole.

And besides. It's much easier to look past issues from the films you like. I'm not thinking of problems with Dark Knight because I love it. I don't see what is wrong with Batman Begins as much because I think it's great. TDKR? Can't get it into it so obviously those of us with problems will be in a negative mood. It doesn't work for us, hence are complaints. So this "Begins and Dark Knight has problems too" card doesn't work.

And of course, this is true. I love TDKR, love the story it was telling, love the themes, the characters, love the feeling it gives me when I watch it...talking about it puts me in a positive mood, so of course when people come here to smash it to bits, if I'm feeling up to it, I defend (which is getting less and less).

 

[milost]

1. They're not on their way to Wayne Enterprises, it's the refugee home in or next to the court house. You know, where we see Miranda Tate's masquerade ball, the place where all the Crane court hearings. That's where Fox and Miranda Tate are located, on the upper floors.

2. Gordon and Blake have the knowledge that Fox and Miranda have . . . and more. Gordon and Blake know that it's in one of three trucks. They also know that the core was removed.

3. The only reason Blake TAKES the Captain to the shelter is for Miranda Tate and Fox to tell him, in person, that the core was removed and that it will go off in months time. Not shutting it down, nothing about it's build, or schematics for the device. Just that, "hey, the device is unstable and will blow soon". That's it. Gordon and Blake already know this. Anything else is just pure conjecture on our parts.

4. The only way to take it out is either have Pavel disable it (he was the only one that could, not Fox) or drown it. This however, ISN'T the point of the scene. Gordon and Blake who clearly know what Talia and Fox know, don't speak up. Instead, they decide it's best to take them just to tell them that "hey, the thing is unstable and will go off and it's from Wayne Enterprises". No duh.

5. As I said, before Cap. Jones even meets Fox and Talia (seconds before he does, Blake is telling him that it was produced by Wayne Enterprises. Uhhhhh, WHY don't Blake and Gordon just tell him at that initial meeting?

6. Which is safer? Staying at your secret hideaway with your fellow officers working with Special Forces, or, again, going into the lion's den and introducing them to Wayne Enterprises employees. The VERY SOURCE of all this mess. A few scenes ago, we see Blake speaking to the father at the orphanage. Cops have been hunted so Blake (and all cops) has to keep a low profile. Why would they want to go all out in the open? Why would they expose themselves by talking to board members and stock holders (the most targeted citizens in Gotham), just to tell them what Blake and Gordon already know?

It doesn't make sense, at all. That whole thing Blake does with Gordon, "you didn't tell them, did you" then, "so let's go take them so these people can tell you". It's dumb.




I still don't get why Miranda Tate is so trusted either. As far as story telling goes, when did she earn her status or place? In Dark Knight, Dent had to prove himself to be in Batman and Gordon's "team". Nobody realizes that every time she's involved, **** goes down? From Bruce, to Fox, to Gordon and Blake. She's a new comer to the story that isn't really established well other than she's been on the board for a few years (not during Begins, not during Dark Knight and not in those 8 years, more like 3) and she FUNDED and was hell bent on this PROJECT.

And our hero is SURPRISED when he's duped by her. Gordon is dumbfounded when he sees her in the truck (and even when Batman reveals he's Bruce). Tricked by a Al Ghul once, shame on them. Tricked by an Al Ghul twice? Shame on Batman. Every line she spews is practically a reference to Ra's, from the pep talks he gave him in Begins to the whole LoS ideals that Bruce was VERY accustomed to. It's not even subtle either.

But nah, everyone just trust this random chick with the bad accent. The one that pops up when everything goes bad.




3 mins of time that could have been used to flesh out Bruce/Batman, Bane or Catwoman espeically. And for what? To set up a new character and plot that just quickly done away with? Tell the audience what they already know?


[YT]a1e8QLCXZnA[/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1e8QLCXZnA


Seems like deleted scene material.

 

[BatLobster]

All of this logic stuff aside, from a storytelling perspective it's not like bringing in the special forces does nothing for the story. You do lose something if you just lopped it out of the movie.

1. It shows that the U.S. Government hasn't completely given up on Gotham and is at least trying to run a covert operation to gather intel about what the hell is going on there.

2. It also demonstrates one way to sneak into Gotham (smuggling via the supply trucks), so we know it's not impossible.

3. Blake and Gordon needed to know that the bomb was 100% going to go off, so it was either this scene with Captain Jones or the scene where Blake meets Miranda and Lucius and he tells them. When you're ahead of the characters information-wise, there's always gonna be a scene of redundant information so the best thing to do is put that scene in a position where other things are getting accomplished too...which they are in this instance.

4. It sets up the idea of a mole/leak like I said.

5. Gives Bane a cool menacing moment with Jones right about at the point in the film where it was very welcome.

6. Leads to the special forces guys getting hung on the bridge, a very potent visual for the film and a smooth way to transition back into Bruce's side of the story.

I'm not saying it's the greatest writing ever, but from a mechanical standpoint it serves a bunch of functions so I can easily allow the one conceit of "the special forces needed to hear it straight from the horse's mouth", especially when I honestly never even questioned that plot point until today.

Also,

4. The only way to take it out is either have Pavel disable it (he was the only one that could, not Fox) or drown it. This however, ISN'T the point of the scene. Gordon and Blake who clearly know what Talia and Fox know, don't speak up. Instead, they decide it's best to take them just to tell them that "hey, the thing is unstable and will go off and it's from Wayne Enterprises". No duh.

Don't forget...Fox does tell Jones that he could potentially reconnect it to the core and stabilize it. This is new information at this point. This is the first glimmer of hope we get in the movie that there might be a scenario where the bomb doesn't go off. I think if anything, that was the point of the scene.

 

[milost]

I'm not saying it's the greatest writing ever, but from a mechanical standpoint it serves a bunch of functions so I can easily allow the one conceit of "the special forces needed to hear it straight from the horse's mouth", especially when I honestly never even questioned that plot point until today.

Also,



Don't forget...Fox does tell Jones that he could potentially reconnect it to the core and stabilize it. This is new information at this point. This is the first glimmer of hope we get in the movie that there might be a scenario where the bomb doesn't go off. I think if anything, that was the point of the scene.

Fair enough, I can respect that lobster.

Still, while it may not be a horrible as the clean slate device (when Blake is clearly shown to have a bible thick file of paper information on her), the magical knee brace (missing cartilage is missing cartilage, brick structures are brick structures) and all the other things that defy logic, it was just something that I noticed that I thought was peculiar.

Story wise, I know what it's trying to accomplish, but I think there was a much better, more creative way of showing that and getting there. I mean, you have these guys in their little kitchen hide out where time is of the essence and everyone is on a need to know basis. The two men that are head of the group clearly have the info, but instead of simply telling it, they say, "wait, you didn't tell them?" and go off (in a montage exposition scene no less), to be told by a completely different party across the city where danger is around every corner.

It's one of those things that I'm surprised I didn't catch and rant about earlier.

 

[BatLobster]

Hey, fair enough. It's not exactly the most riveting section of the movie, but admittedly I do tend to enjoy when Nolan gets montage-y and I really enjoyed the bleakness of any chance we got to see how dire things were in Gotham so I probably never even thought to question any of that stuff because on some level I do really enjoy the presentation of that sequence even though it's pretty much straight exposition and setup.

I think overall the scene is just a means of getting Lucius and Miranda back into the story and start getting the pieces in place for the third act, and Jones and the special forces guys were simply the vehicle/plot point that got us there. Maybe there was a more creative way of doing it, but overall it doesn't detract for me. I dig the bit where Jones kind of scoffs at Blake chalking the bat symbols and tells him to try putting his faith in something a little more real.

In any event, I'd much rather hear some new/different gripes with the movie than the ol' greatest hits, so

 

[Squaremaster316]

THE DARK KNIGHT: *****
BATMAN BEGINS: ****3/4
THE DARK KNIGHT RISES: ****

Doesn't stop it from being the best trilogy of the genre.

 

[BH/HHH]

Its the best trilogy of the genre but that isn't saying much when we've gotten continuously bad or average third movies in the genre. The Dark Knight Rises is a decent movie but I thought it was way below par of the first two, seems to me Nolan had blew his wad on the first two and in Rises there's some damn right laziness and even parts when I felt Nolan just didn't really care. I still believe he didn't want to do the third one. Anyway it us still the best third superhero film in the genre but it still did what all the others dud and took a step down.

 

[BatLobster]

It's funny I feel just the opposite. I feel like Nolan really, fully embraced the genre this time around and wanted to put one final stamp on the character in the grandest possible fashion.

It's just hard for me to reconcile the fact that this was easily his most ambitious film to date and the idea that he didn't care. If he didn't care, why challenge yourself and your team like that? Why devote years of your life to it when you have the power to pick any project you want and every studio will throw money at you to come work for them? Even the "Nolan just made it so nobody could make a third film and mess up his movies" argument still implies that he gave a damn about the legacy of the series. No matter how you slice it, I'm still not seeing it.

Will never, ever understand it. If you want to criticize TDKR, to me it seems to make more sense to argue that Nolan overshot it and tried to accomplish too much. That's an argument I can get my head around and even agree with to an extent. Though I still tip my hat to the man and his team for giving it their all and trying to give us our money's worth.

Also, it seems kind of odd to me that nobody ever points a finger at Goyer considering most people's issues with Rises stem from some of the basic narrative choices embedded in the spine of the film. Goyer was brought on by Nolan in the first place to be his go-to guy when it comes to honoring the source material, and stuff like Bruce's retirement(s), Talia's role, Blake, etc. were first conceived of when he and Chris were having their early brainstorm sessions. Not to mention they were constantly consulting with DC over the course of the three movies too. Was everybody around him including his own brother just too scared to oppose him on things?

These movies were already leading the pack after the first two movies as far as I'm concerned. Rises just helped cement it as one of the all-time great trilogies, period.

 

[shauner111]

Rises is my favorite comic book movie. There, i said it. Even though i don't consider it a "comic book movie".

 

[BH/HHH]

It's funny I feel just the opposite. I feel like Nolan really, fully embraced the genre this time around and wanted to put one final stamp on the character in the grandest possible fashion.

It's just hard for me to reconcile the fact that this was easily his most ambitious film to date and the idea that he didn't care. If he didn't care, why challenge yourself and your team like that? Why devote years of your life to it when you have the power to pick any project you want and every studio will throw money at you to come work for them? Even the "Nolan just made it so nobody could make a third film and mess up his movies" argument still implies that he gave a damn about the legacy of the series. No matter how you slice it, I'm still not seeing it.

Will never, ever understand it. If you want to criticize TDKR, to me it seems to make more sense to argue that Nolan overshot it and tried to accomplish too much. That's an argument I can get my head around and even agree with to an extent. Though I still tip my hat to the man and his team for giving it their all and trying to give us our money's worth.

Also, it seems kind of odd to me that nobody ever points a finger at Goyer considering most people's issues with Rises stem from some of the basic narrative choices embedded in the spine of the film. Goyer was brought on by Nolan in the first place to be his go-to guy when it comes to honoring the source material, and stuff like Bruce's retirement(s), Talia's role, Blake, etc. were first conceived of when he and Chris were having their early brainstorm sessions. Not to mention they were constantly consulting with DC over the course of the three movies too. Was everybody around him including his own brother just too scared to oppose him on things?

These movies were already leading the pack after the first two movies as far as I'm concerned. Rises just helped cement it as one of the all-time great trilogies, period.

When I say didn't care I look at the final product things like Talias terrible death scene, was that really the best shot? Batman been stabbed with a knife, which has no consequence, the plot holes etc. Agree to disagree certainly but I don't think Nolan's heart was in this one like the other two.

As for Goyer he only outlined the story it was down to Chris and Jonah to deliver a worthy script. On Goyer aswell I think he gets far more critiscm and deserved, like every thing that was bad in Begins was all him yet the good stuff wasn't? For me its down to the film maker.

 

[Shikamaru]

It's funny I feel just the opposite. I feel like Nolan really, fully embraced the genre this time around and wanted to put one final stamp on the character in the grandest possible fashion.

It's just hard for me to reconcile the fact that this was easily his most ambitious film to date and the idea that he didn't care. If he didn't care, why challenge yourself and your team like that? Why devote years of your life on it when you have the power to pick any project you want and every studio will throw money at you to come work for them? Even the "Nolan just made it so nobody could make a third film and mess up his movies" argument still implies that he gave a damn about the legacy of the series. No matter how you slice it, I'm still not seeing it.

Will never, ever understand it. If you want to criticize TDKR, to me it seems to make more sense to argue that Nolan overshot it and tried to accomplish too much. That's an argument I can get my head around and even agree with to an extent. Though I still tip my hat to the man and his team for giving it their all and trying to give us our money's worth.

Also, it seems kind of odd to me that nobody ever points a finger at Goyer considering most people's issues with Rises stem from some of the basic narrative choices embedded in the spine of the film. Goyer was brought on by Nolan in the first place to be his go-to guy when it comes to honoring the source material, and stuff like Bruce's retirement(s), Talia's role, Blake, etc. were first conceived of when he and Chris were having their early brainstorm sessions. Not to mention they were constantly consulting with DC over the course of the three movies too. Was everybody around him including his own brother just too scared to oppose him on things?

These movies were already leading the pack after the first two movies as far as I'm concerned. Rises just helped cement it as one of the all-time great trilogies, period.

Ambition =/= effort. I think overshooting it is precisely why the film doesn't feel as if it had as much heart put into it. Yes, he does try to go bigger than ever with the film, but that's only looking at the quantity of ambition and not at the quality of it. When it comes to the quality of his ambition (I know that sounds lame but I have no better way to describe it), the minds that formulated the first two films don't feel as complex with TDKR. In other words, the film feels like it was put together more by an excited fan of the Nolan films as opposed to Nolan and Co. "Let's add more explosions and an even bigger bomb than in BB and huge crowds fighting and the bridges will blow up and it's gonna be kewl!" That's what it feels like.

To offer an analogy, the difference between BB/TDK Nolan and TDKR Nolan is kinda like the difference between Rocksteady Studios (Arkham Asylum/City) and WB Montreal Studios (Arkham Origins). WB Montreal tried going "bigger and badder" with the map by doubling the size of Gotham, the number of villains/thugs, the number of places, etc. However, the game's environment doesn't have anywhere the same amount of polish and attention to detail as the first two did, which makes AO's map the most generic and half-ass map of the three, despite the studio's intentions not being that.

As for Goyer, I think it goes without saying people mean "Nolan and Co." when they say "Nolan", since Chris Nolan himself doesn't have all the input. Goyer already gets a lot of crap in the first place. Most comic book fans, including TDKT fans (including myself), believe that Goyer should not be allowed to write solo - the main reason the MOS script got so doomed. Goyer has always been better off as a source material/idea man than a great writer by himself. However, Nolan as the director represents the face of the whole production crew, which is why people point fingers at him. That's not to say that everything is entirely his fault.

As for them consulting with DC over certain things, I never cared to pay too much attention to that. Given DC/WB's poor track record in both their comics and movies, their approval is by no means "holy".