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The Dark Knight Rises Anne Hathaway as Selina Kyle/Catwoman IX

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No one is arguing 'comic costume = weak performance'. No one.

We're emphasizing performance because we're reminding you that there are larger priorities, so don't freak the hell out over no cat cowl.

...this thread will continue to go in circles.
 
I thought Chris over at Batman-News verified that there would be a cowl at some point?
 
I can accept an ear-less Catwoman since there's atleast a precedent. The character started with no costume at all. But I've never been a fan of leaving out characters and traits because they aren't realistic enough.
 
I thought Chris over at Batman-News verified that there would be a cowl at some point?
Nonono, he clearly told us that he was told that there is a possibility of a cowl, and we should all just take it as a rumor. It's not confirmed yet....
 
I am sure everyone accepts the basic truth that the formation of a compelling character is a more pressing priority than designing an appropriate costume for that character.

There is no reason, however, to suggest that a perfect costume would some how diminish or distract us from the efforts of the actress, the scriptwriter and the director. The costume designer's role is different and easily defined. They are responsible for designing costumes. Are those who continually remind us that performance is more important that costume actually attempting to argue that having a better costume would require sacrificing the integrity of the performance?

If so, I don't understand why. Heath Ledger's costume as The Joker is widely accepted to be a very good one. His performance was also very good. They complimented each other. I do not recall anyone, at the time when the first full picture of The Joker was released, telling us all not to get too excited, as the costume was just a costume and the performance was the important bit.

So, although I place myself cautiously among the Catsuits defenders, I have to say that it is pretty silly to use this thread as a platform from which to play down the significance of costumes.

No, but you have to also look at who defines what's a 'better design'. In this case, the main storyteller/director decides if the costume meets their sensibilities of the adaptation that they're presenting...and it's the costume designers' job to do so. A costume that more closely resembles that from the comics may be 'better' for comic fans, but not for the filmmaker who's making a story that feels different, if you will. So in that respect, I think it would also be unfair to claim that Nolan & crew are purposely settling for 'inferior' costume designs just because they address something that isn't quite the same as what some out there are looking to be addressed.

Yes, this Batman has a cowl/ears, but that doesn't invariably mean that Kyle HAS to have cat-ears, or that Joker has to have permawhite skin, or Bane has to wear a wrestling mask, and so on in this particular version. I never saw these films as requiring that sort of 'balance' across the board.

Nolan may very well want a Selina Kyle (also referred to loosely as 'Catwoman' or what have you) that doesn't have a full eye-mask and skullcap with cat-ears for whatever reason...not because he doesn't like the idea in and of itself, but because he has a different version of the character in mind for his version of the story. So by that measure, the costume could be spot-on. Thus, I don't see any of this as negligence or what have you, even in respect to fan-service et al. They're doing their version, which doesn't by any means have to be THE version for all time, just one of what could be many to come, with its own unique spin on things. I think he's earned that consideration thus far with his skill as a filmmaker...and I don't see it as being a disservice if such 'service' wasn't really part of the equation to begin with.
 
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...and I'm also aware that Catwoman has appeared without a cowl and cat ears in the comics. That does not change the fact that the DEFINITIVE look is some version of a cowl and cat ears.

Precisely my thoughts. I don't really care that there is precedence for it. As someone already mentioned, there is also precedence for a Batman who carries a gun and shoots people dead. I want to see the definitive Catwoman on screen.

What's funny is that this is being skewed into some "fanboy" issue, when Catwoman is one of the most recognizable characters in comics when it comes to the mainstream audience. If this is Catwoman's final look, then expect moaning and groaning that goes far beyond the realm of internet nerds.
 
Of course Nolan + team haven't deliberately come up with a costume they think is feeble. That isn't what I am suggesting. What I am saying is that people will have their own views on the costume, that need not be flavoured by some vague expectation about the quality of script and performance. Those elements are unknown quantities.
 
These arguements defending the "Catwoman" suit are ridiculous. I didn't hear anyone mention how awesome it would be if Nolan made Catwoman's suit look nothing like Catwoman before. But now, because everyone wants to trust Nolan and give him their first born, all previous incarnations of the character over the past howmany years makes no sense? And this is completely acceptable? I feel you're all defending this look because it's what Nolan thought looked good, not because it actually looks good. It doesn't.

On another note, we have people using Burton's Catwoman as an excuse as to why Nolan's Catwoman looks far better. Again, funny since no one complained about Burton's Catwoman before. Now all of a sudden she's a "zombie"? I'm reading people say Catwoman should be defined by her personality and character rather than her look. That's what really makes her CATwoman. REALLY? Burton's Catwoman licked herself, had claws, tried swallowing a bird, and was as sexual as she was psychotic. How much more CAT can one be?!
 
Precisely my thoughts. I don't really care that there is precedence for it. As someone already mentioned, there is also precedence for a Batman who carries a gun and shoots people dead. I want to see the definitive Catwoman on screen.

What's funny is that this is being skewed into some "fanboy" issue, when Catwoman is one of the most recognizable characters in comics when it comes to the mainstream audience. If this is Catwoman's final look, then expect moaning and groaning that goes far beyond the realm of internet nerds.

...and yet they'll see it anyway.

I really can't see anyone saying

"Oh no, she doesn't have the cowl! I'm not seeing the movie now!"
 
Nonono, he clearly told us that he was told that there is a possibility of a cowl, and we should all just take it as a rumor. It's not confirmed yet....
Ah I see. Well I'm still convinced that the picture was just something to combat the inevitable spy pics that would come from that day's shoot, and that that suit is not all we're gonna get. But then again I could be wrong. :oldrazz:
 
These arguements defending the "Catwoman" suit are ridiculous. I didn't hear anyone mention how awesome it would be if Nolan made Catwoman's suit look nothing like Catwoman before. But now, because everyone wants to trust Nolan and give him their first born, all previous incarnations of the character over the past howmany years makes no sense? And this is completely acceptable? I feel you're all defending this look because it's what Nolan thought looked good, not because it actually looks good. It doesn't.

On another note, we have people using Burtin's Catwoman has an excuse as to why Nolan's Catwoman looks far better. Again, funny since no one complained about Burton's Catwoman before. Now all of a sudden she's a "zombie"? I'm reading people say Catwoman should be defined by her personality and character rather than her look. That's what really makes her CATwoman. REALLY? Burton's Catwoman licked herself, had claws, tried swallowing a bird, and was as sexual as she was psychotic. How much more CAT can one be?!
Yes, it is very, very frustrating- and I say that as someone who is somewhat happy with the new costume.

A lot of the support for it is simply reactive and thoughtless. But we really ought to be used to that by now, so we should all just try to patient.
 
Precisely my thoughts. I don't really care that there is precedence for it. As someone already mentioned, there is also precedence for a Batman who carries a gun and shoots people dead. I want to see the definitive Catwoman on screen.

What's funny is that this is being skewed into some "fanboy" issue, when Catwoman is one of the most recognizable characters in comics when it comes to the mainstream audience. If this is Catwoman's final look, then expect moaning and groaning that goes far beyond the realm of internet nerds.

That's the damn truth. I'm not one of those crybabies whining that the movie is ruined now, it would just be nice if she worse the ears. It's not going to bring me down though.

As for what you said, it won't be any kind of surprise at how many people of the GA are also going to be scratching their heads thinking, "wtf...that's Catwoman". Most if not all people recognize her easily because of the cowl/mask she wears.
 
That's kickass, kickass. Pfeiffer/Burton Catwoman is awesome.
 
...and yet they'll see it anyway.

I really can't see anyone saying

"Oh no, she doesn't have the cowl! I'm not seeing the movie now!"
That's entirely irrelevant. Revenue and attendance is no marker of a movie's quality. If it were, then Harry Potter and Transformers would be the best movies ever made.
 
...and I'm also aware that Catwoman has appeared without a cowl and cat ears in the comics. That does not change the fact that the DEFINITIVE look is some version of a cowl and cat ears.

Yes, but there is nothing that says that these particular movies have to be the definitive motion-picture versions of Batman and his world. They could very well be a unique and alternate version, without making them any less of a film. And I think that the prerogatives/priorities of these films are to themselves as films first, the style/approach of which are up to the main creative author in this case. It's not like all the comics/animations have to follow these from now on.

I've always looked at these movies more like 'alternate-universe' graphic novels that can take the story their own independent way from the rest of the regular periodical run. So instead of looking to see how it adheres to the rest of the regular comics, we can appreciate how it reinterprets and reimagines those elements for its own alternate story version.
 
That's entirely irrelevant. Revenue and attendance is no marker of a movie's quality. If it were, then Harry Potter and Transformers would be the best movies ever made.

Do you catch what I was responding to?

He said the general public will be upset. I said they'll still go see the movie.

The movie will still be a success. The no cat cowl will not result in monetary backlash.

Am I wrong? No.

I never said anything about the quality of the film. If anything, no cat cowl has no dog in that fight, either.

The film itself could be good, in the middle, or suck.
 
Sorry if I'm a bit slow, but what does her wearing or not wearing the ears have to do with the direction they're taking the story??

It's simply personal preference from Nolan. What would the plot have to do with her choosing to wear a full mask? I don't think those two things have much of any kind of connection to them.
 
I can't believe I'm still reading posts about how the reasons for Batman to wear a mask don't apply to Catwoman. Are we still subscribing to this fallacy that there's only one acceptable motivation to wear a mask?

And then even more of these "Geeze guys, it's just a cowl, worry about the important stuff" posts. Ugh.

I don't want to have to write this all out again, so I'm going to quote myself:

Reading certain posts claiming that "There's no justification for Catwoman to wear a cowl, there's no reason for her to do that" is getting pretty frustrating.

Are we being willfully unimaginative? If you listen to the certain posters in these threads, you might come away believing that the only acceptable reason for someone to wear a costume--ever, anywhere in the world--is if they're doing it for the exact reasons that Batman does. If those reasons don't apply, then it must be completely impossible to imagine any other reason for someone to wear a costume.

As I explained in another thread, not every character is like Bruce Wayne. Not everyone is a methodical practicality machine. It's diminishing and misguided to pretend that every character should behave as such. People like to play dress-up in the real world; is it really so difficult to conceive of someone who is eccentric and playful? You know, one of the defining attributes of Selina Kyle? Not everything in the world is about symbols and little radio receivers built into cowl ears. Not everyone thinks that way.

It also frustrates me to hear about how this is just a costume, and worrying about it is superficial. I don't know about you, but I think the difference in personality between a thief and a thief who dresses up like a cat to seduce Batman is pretty immense. Similarly, if Bruce Wayne put on a ski mask and started beating criminals up with a stick, that, too, would be a pretty extreme departure from his established personality.

Putting on costumes, and the reasons they choose to do so, is part of who these characters are. That's how they were built! The desire to explain and re-explain why they do these crazy things has woven the costumes into the foundations of these character for decades.

Or, consider the problem this way: if Selina Kyle had not dressed up like a cat in Batman Returns, would she be the same character that she was? Would her character arc be the same? The answer, of course, is no.
 
Of course Nolan + team haven't deliberately come up with a costume they think is feeble. That isn't what I am suggesting. What I am saying is that people will have their own views on the costume, that need not be flavoured by some vague expectation about the quality of script and performance. Those elements are unknown quantities.

But we do have a good preceding sample from which to judge the prospects....namely the first two movies of the series. They've done quite a few things that stray from the comic depictions, but made them their own in an engaging and cinematic way. I think it's just as valid to look forward to that and not be so beholden to certain costume details for certain characters, as it is to want them to adhere more to the comics. It depends on what you're looking for, and it's okay for some to feel differently coming into it than others. All these movies may not do some things for some out there, but it's up to the individual viewer as to what they think it should do.
 
Well said Saint. Never saw that post when you first put it up.
 
On another note, we have people using Burton's Catwoman as an excuse as to why Nolan's Catwoman looks far better. Again, funny since no one complained about Burton's Catwoman before. Now all of a sudden she's a "zombie"?1 I'm reading people say Catwoman should be defined by her personality and character rather than her look.2 That's what really makes her CATwoman. REALLY? Burton's Catwoman licked herself, had claws, tried swallowing a bird, and was as sexual as she was psychotic. How much more CAT can one be?!3
1: Ofcourse she looked like a zombie. She had that terrible "cheap horror movie" suit.
catwoman-michell-pfeiffer.jpg

She's as pale as snow and those zips are terrible.
2: I agree on the fact that she should wear a cowl, but the character is based on the word cat-burglar not on an actual cat person. If she is flexible and feline in her movements as well as independent, strong and beautiful then she is Catwoman.
3: I'm glad we won't get that childish stuff this time.
 
You know what kills me the most? All the people loving and defending the "Cat"woman suit, then complaining and begging for Batman to change his suit because it looks too much like "armor".


R E A L L Y?
 
I think it's fine that people want what they want, and some are disappointed that they may not be getting certain things....as long as we don't tell someone else what THEY should want.
 
...and yet they'll see it anyway.

I really can't see anyone saying

"Oh no, she doesn't have the cowl! I'm not seeing the movie now!"

That's because no one will literally say that, but something like this can easily affect the perceived quality of the movie, with both the casual and hardcore audience. It's not as if we come to this board to strictly discuss the box office impact of the movie (though you could absolutely argue that this "perceived quality" will influence box office performance). If that were the case, then any minor or major complaint could be answered with a silly "But you're still gonna see it!!!!" response.
 
I can't believe I'm still reading posts about how the reasons for Batman to wear a mask don't apply to Catwoman. Are we still subscribing to this fallacy that there's only one acceptable motivation to wear a mask?

And then even more of these "Geeze guys, it's just a cowl, worry about the important stuff" posts. Ugh.

I don't want to have to write this all out again, so I'm going to quote myself:

Dude, you can go and on about why two ears matter so muuuuucccchhhh or you agree that people see it differently and do not think the character is splintered because of two ears. Give it a rest, man.

She is not the Joker. She is not Batman.

She is not running around in NOTHING resembling her comics counterpart.

If she were as screwed around as they did Deadpool, I would understand and sympathize. Your logic is correct, but you need to accept that not everyone will care and it does not necessarily ruin the interpretation.

Let me save us all some time, you won't agree and this thread will continue.
 
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