Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Mikelus]

Yes well you convinced me to up the % of it being something clever from 5% to 35%. The show runners don't really seem to know what they are doing. Why would they have Felicity in a wheelchair for 3 eps for example? If they knew what they were doing they would try and make the viewers feel bad for her, stretch things out and have a risky operation in the season finale this year or mid season finale next year.

They didn't know who's in the grave when the season started, so yep:

Sadly, dead is dead. “It’s not a fake-out,” Guggenheim says of whomever is in that grave — though it sounds like the identity of said person is still up in the air. “We don’t necessarily know who it is right now,” Mericle says. “We’re still figuring the plan out for the season, but we wanted to have resonance. If it doesn’t mean something to the characters, it won’t mean anything to the audience either.” Despite viewers knowing that the Lazarus Pits will be used to bring Sara Lance (Caity Lotz) back to life at some point this season, Mericle says that this person really will stay dead. “We want to bring stakes back to the show,” she says.

http://tvline.com/2015/10/07/arrow-season-4-recap-who-died-death-oliver-felicity-proposal/

Well logically if they bring her back I think it would be Sara returning the favor and using Rip to do it..

The producers said this time the death will stick. Also, altering the timeline has consequences, Rip will not risk it nor Barry, who knows better by now.

It seems Donna is not in the photos... maybe H.I.V.E kills Quentin and her with a bomb. Anyway, if it is Laurel, then what a waste it would be and so wrong too, you don't have a Green Arrow sans Black Canary, it would be like Superman without Lois. Like some people have said, DC Films could be the reason, there are rumours about them using Black Canary, but it's getting extremely frustrating this killing off characters because of it, they can coexist as part of the Multiverse. One thing's for sure, we will get a better version of Black Canary and Green Arrow in the movies, Snyder will take care of that.

 

[JC00]

The producers said this time the death will stick. Also, altering the timeline has consequences, Rip will not risk it nor Barry, who knows better by now.

I never said it wouldn't...

And Sara called Rip out on hypocrisy about altering timelines just to save his Wife and Son. So he really doesn't have a pot to piss in if Sara did want to go back and save her sister.

 

[HighFivingMF]

All of this sudden loyalty to Green Arrow and Black Canary as a couple is confusing to me. They haven't been a couple for going on 5 years now and don't seem to have suffered a bit. Plus, when they were together the consensus from Canary fans was that Green Arrow dragged her down.

It just seems weird to me that the pairing was something people were either meh/unfavorable toward, but now that there's something popular to make a negative comparison, it was the best thing ever and apparently the only way the characters work.

 

[SpideyVille]

I know they are no Lois and Clark, but it really bothered me how Smallville set up flirtation between the two, on and off screen, only to change it completely and have it him marry Chloe drunkenly but seriously.

So to see Arrow head down a similar path, it's one thing. But to possibly kill her off completely, it just really doesn't sit well with me, especially with how much they built up the journey of Laurel and legacy of the Canary.

 

[Paradox1]

All of this sudden loyalty to Green Arrow and Black Canary as a couple is confusing to me. They haven't been a couple for going on 5 years now and don't seem to have suffered a bit. Plus, when they were together the consensus from Canary fans was that Green Arrow dragged her down.

It just seems weird to me that the pairing was something people were either meh/unfavorable toward, but now that there's something popular to make a negative comparison, it was the best thing ever and apparently the only way the characters work.

Most people have seen the JLU version of them two together and prefer that. Not that Laurel has been like that version neither has Oliver frankly. There was still hope they could get there over time.

 

[Nathan]

My opinion hasn't really changed. Shocking, I know. I still think Laurel's character failed on a conceptual level, from the very beginning. She shouldn't have existed as she did in Season 1, and should have made her entrance in Season 2 the way Sara did. Or they should have had her immediately go the path of becoming Black Canary at the beginning of Season 2. Training to channel her anger, instead of drowning herself in drugs and booze.

The death nail for the character, imo, was when they introduced Sara, who was everything you wanted from the Black Canary. Well, almost everything. But just like Arrow was still growing and would eventually become the Green Arrow, Sara could have grown and turned into the Black Canary from the comics.

Even now that Laurel is the Black Canary, she never quite feels like the genuine article. Even though Laurel was supposed to be the real thing, and Sara was the TV original character, it feels like it's the other way around. Watching Laurel run around as the Canary, is to me like watching Felicity as the Canary, or some other random blonde woman. It's just a person that has no business dressing up as the Black Canary and fighting alongside the Green Arrow.

 

[DCnightwing23]

My opinion hasn't really changed. Shocking, I know. I still think Laurel's character failed on a conceptual level, from the very beginning. She shouldn't have existed as she did in Season 1, and should have made her entrance in Season 2 the way Sara did. Or they should have had her immediately go the path of becoming Black Canary at the beginning of Season 2. Training to channel her anger, instead of drowning herself in drugs and booze.

The death nail for the character, imo, was when they introduced Sara, who was everything you wanted from the Black Canary. Well, almost everything. But just like Arrow was still growing and would eventually become the Green Arrow, Sara could have grown and turned into the Black Canary from the comics.

Even now that Laurel is the Black Canary, she never quite feels like the genuine article. Even though Laurel was supposed to be the real thing, and Sara was the TV original character, it feels like it's the other way around. Watching Laurel run around as the Canary, is to me like watching Felicity as the Canary, or some other random blonde woman. It's just a person that has no business dressing up as the Black Canary and fighting alongside the Green Arrow.

I agree with this to a certain extent. Yes, they introduced her poorly and the way the character almost regresses after the death of Oliver and more importantly her sister, was definitely a sign of things to come for the character. But it's definitely not a reason to kill off a major comicbook character. Despite the little screen time she's had this season i would say she's been the strongest in what she's been given. And I could easily see the character switch back and forth from Arrow and Flash potentially even to the point of bringing her into Central City to train Barry and even Wally on how to fight (given she's progressed significantly as a fighter) The writers have consistently given the character the weaker storylines yet the actress has shined this season and her fan base I'd say has grown.

The reason I brought up Thea in a previous post is because I don't think there's any other character that consistently whines and cries about the same stuff every season (fights with Oliver, fights with Malcolm over the same old things, consistently being emo Thea wanting to die yada yada yada) other than Felicity of course, that imo I feel the character hasn't progressed at all. Yes, the writers can give the character a job in a mayoral campaign, give the character more fight sequences but when we look at the root of the character and where she's currently at, I don't see any progress.

And let's compare actresses here. Katie Cassidy has really transformed thanks to this show, and has shown tons of dedication to her character and is constantly staying fit (she's built incredible muscle and frame since the start of the show) and does more fight sequences than Willa. Meanwhile, Willa still smokes cigarettes, hardly ever does her own fights scenes unless it's a close up of her holding a weapon (and don't get me started on her awful stance with a bow), doesn't hit the gym all that often if ever, and has shown imo the least amount of growth as an actor out of the cast.

I'd keep Black Canary.

 

[Batsfan1]

My opinion hasn't really changed. Shocking, I know. I still think Laurel's character failed on a conceptual level, from the very beginning. She shouldn't have existed as she did in Season 1, and should have made her entrance in Season 2 the way Sara did. Or they should have had her immediately go the path of becoming Black Canary at the beginning of Season 2. Training to channel her anger, instead of drowning herself in drugs and booze.

I don't disagree. Except for the entrance the way Sara was.

The death nail for the character, imo, was when they introduced Sara, who was everything you wanted from the Black Canary. Well, almost everything. But just like Arrow was still growing and would eventually become the Green Arrow, Sara could have grown and turned into the Black Canary from the comics.

She wasn't what I wanted from BC. She didn't have the backstory, the morals or the name. Even Oliver had one out of that in his beginning. Though, I never really put much stock in him becoming the character from the comics.

Even now that Laurel is the Black Canary, she never quite feels like the genuine article. Even though Laurel was supposed to be the real thing, and Sara was the TV original character, it feels like it's the other way around. Watching Laurel run around as the Canary, is to me like watching Felicity as the Canary, or some other random blonde woman. It's just a person that has no business dressing up as the Black Canary and fighting alongside the Green Arrow.

I see the same thing for almost every comic adapted character on the show.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Slade W]

Of course it's gonna be Merlyn.

I reckon that it is most likely that he is involved in the murder, but he might not actually murder the person himself. He might just inform the killer of the characters whereabouts or something

 

[Slade W]

You know .... you just made me realize something.

yes, Laurel in the present is missing from the photos, but what's to say that that she wasn't just getting her make up done and by the time she came out, the photographer was spotted and told to leave?

Maybe I'm just trying to grasp at straws, but what if we've jumped to conclusions really quickly, based on what we have yet to see?

And before someone mentions it, I know there's the alledged folder that says "Katie Cassidy films last day of Arrow" but where did that come from? Also, there was a pic that looked like random people standing near a grave where the last letters were "YTON" which could be part of Clayton, the surname of William and his mother.

Spoiler

 

[AspieXLDS]

Spoiler

Yeah, there doesn't look like there's enough space between the coffin and the headstone with that 'YTON' snip on it for another gravesite. But that could just be the angle. Guess we'll see sometime next month.

If it is a Clayton.... my money has to be on William. Otherwise, the showrunners need to admit they completely screwed the pooch on how they had Felicity react; she would definitely lose her composure if it was a kid's funeral, but I don't see her doing so with Samantha. Nor do I see Oliver acting as he does. Of course, Guggenheim will never admit to being a bad showrunner; as I understand it, he still feels they're treating the Laurel character fine...

 

[superboy13]

For the record, while filming The Dark Knight Rises, Christian Bale was at Bruce's funeral scene (which confused the ***** out of Michael Caine) and there was a fake name in the gravestone, later changed via CGI.

 

[HighFivingMF]

Yeah, there doesn't look like there's enough space between the coffin and the headstone with that 'YTON' snip on it for another gravesite. But that could just be the angle. Guess we'll see sometime next month.

If it is a Clayton.... my money has to be on William. Otherwise, the showrunners need to admit they completely screwed the pooch on how they had Felicity react; she would definitely lose her composure if it was a kid's funeral, but I don't see her doing so with Samantha. Nor do I see Oliver acting as he does. Of course, Guggenheim will never admit to being a bad showrunner; as I understand it, he still feels they're treating the Laurel character fine...

That's a full-size coffin though. Kids don't have full-size coffins.

 

[Slade W]

If it is Samantha, perhaps Felicity bonds with her in the few episodes before she is killed. This is a show that had Slade fall in love with Shado in a very short period of time (ie his feelings for her became very strong when she was tending to his wounds after Ivo's attack and helped to keep him warm by getting in bed with him).

 

[BlueLanternKal]

helped to keep him warm by getting in bed with him).

 

[Slade W]

Ha! He was in very bad condition at the time, so I doubt it. Poor Slade .

 

[AspieXLDS]

That's a full-size coffin though. Kids don't have full-size coffins.

Well, I wouldn't honestly know that. I generally don't watch TV shows that kill kids off frequently, Akio was cremated in Season 3, and I've never been to a child's funeral IRL. Thanks for the information.

Well, then, if its Samantha, they need to sell a damned good reason why Felicity would be crying at the funeral for the mother of Oliver's love-child... or why she would even be there in the first place.

 

[superboy13]

Well, I wouldn't honestly know that. I generally don't watch TV shows that kill kids off frequently, Akio was cremated in Season 3, and I've never been to a child's funeral IRL. Thanks for the information.

Well, then, if its Samantha, they need to sell a damned good reason why Felicity would be crying at the funeral for the mother of Oliver's love-child... or why she would even be there in the first place.

Plot twist: the Calculator is Samantha's estranged father, too.

 

[Slade W]

Well, I wouldn't honestly know that. I generally don't watch TV shows that kill kids off frequently, Akio was cremated in Season 3, and I've never been to a child's funeral IRL. Thanks for the information.

Well, then, if its Samantha, they need to sell a damned good reason why Felicity would be crying at the funeral for the mother of Oliver's love-child... or why she would even be there in the first place.

Here is what I said in a post earlier

"If it is Samantha, perhaps Felicity bonds with her in the few episodes before she is killed. This is a show that had Slade fall in love with Shado in a very short period of time (ie his feelings for her became very strong when she was tending to his wounds after Ivo's attack and helped to keep him warm by getting in bed with him)."

 

[AspieXLDS]

Here is what I said in a post earlier

"If it is Samantha, perhaps Felicity bonds with her in the few episodes before she is killed. This is a show that had Slade fall in love with Shado in a very short period of time (ie his feelings for her became very strong when she was tending to his wounds after Ivo's attack and helped to keep him warm by getting in bed with him)."

True enough. It is also the show that, for the Season 2 finale, tried to sell Slade falling for her as far back as their sparring session near the end of Season 1 in the 'previously, on Arrow' segment.

@superboy13: honestly, with MG and WM, I would really not be surprised... after all, the Merlyn-Queen family tree is all sorts of messed up. Why not do the same with the Clayton-Lance-Smoak tree by having Noah as father to Samantha and Felicity, Donna as potential stepmother for Laurel and Sara, making Felicity and Samantha potential stepsisters for the Lance girls....

For the record, I'm being a bit facetious.... but it is MG and WM we're talking about here....

 

[superboy13]

@superboy13: honestly, with MG and WM, I would really not be surprised... after all, the Merlyn-Queen family tree is all sorts of messed up. Why not do the same with the Clayton-Lance-Smoak tree by having Noah as father to Samantha and Felicity, Donna as potential stepmother for Laurel and Sara, making Felicity and Samantha potential stepsisters for the Lance girls....

For the record, I'm being a bit facetious.... but it is MG and WM we're talking about here....

I pray to Zod they're not reading this right now. They might just think it's the best idea EVER.

 

[JC00]

They wanted Merlyn to be Oliver's father.. Even Barrowman of all people thought that was too cheesy and talked them out of it. This show was a conversation away from Oliver Queen's arch-enemy Merlyn being his friggen father...


So really nothing is out of bounds with them in terms of the soap opera type stuff..

 

[AspieXLDS]

They wanted Merlyn to be Oliver's father.. Even Barrowman of all people thought that was too cheesy and talked them out of it. This show was a conversation away from Oliver Queen's arch-enemy Merlyn being his friggen father...


So really nothing is out of bounds with them in terms of the soap opera type stuff..

Yup... and that was when Berlanti and Kreisberg were in charge.... we've already seen some of the horror that is Guggenheim unleashed.... (aka, Arrow Season 3)

 

[ZIPBAGS]

I have asked in the past...But, why is Oliver broke? Yes, I know Isabel/Slade conned him into giving up control of Queen Consolidated. But, he still should have his (or his parents) money.

 

[JC00]

Should go ask Guggenheim and the writers, they are the ones that failed to give a logical reason other than Thea not signing papers their attorney needed them to sign.


But then again the way he lost the company was illogical too.. Signs over leadership of the company in distress and then somehow his stake in the company became worthless in a week...