Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 25

[Gintoki]

The TV and Movie Universe should be separate, however it's really freaking dumb on DC/WB's part to restrict characters. What the hell is wrong with having 2 versions of 1 character? You're creatively limiting them.

I enjoyed Arrow's Suicide Squad, and Micheal Rowe as Deadshot was amazing. They freaking got restricted Slade Wilson too, a freaking big bad of Season 2. Shows how idiotic DC/WB are, and along with Uncle Guggie's poor writing, DC/WB are also responsible for Arrow's downfall.

 

[Lencho01]

My issue with the whole thing is just how random WB/DC is when it comes to who can show up on TV shows (animated and live-action) due to what's may or may not be happen on film (or other TV shows). There's no clear answer and it's been that way for years.

 

[Omegabat]

I believe it is dumb like in the case of the "The Batman" where the creators were not allowed Ra's, Scarecrow, Two-Face etc but even that was kinda rectified big time by Beware the Batman. However I dont see what's so dumb about preventing Arrow from using the SS, Harley etc. They should be thankful that they were even allowed to use Ra's, Slade, the League and H.I.V.E in the first place. It's like Charlie Cox complaining about Marvel not allowing his show to use Red Skull, H.Y.D.R.A, Spider-Man and Iron Man. His show doesn't and shouldn't need them.

 

[Herolee10]

Well like others have already said, this show has way more problems than simply being denied access for certain characters on this show.

1. The Overstayed welcome of Malcolm Merlyn's character.

2. Multiple plot holes and inconsistencies.

3. Felicity/Olicity/Donna Smoak.

4. Piss Poor Treatment of their canon characters.

5. An Huge Abundance of Unnecessary Flashbacks.

 

[Slade W]

DCEU is a big enough mess as it is. It is a good thing that the universes are not connected, as that would make things more difficult and it would require better planning, and the DCEU has shown so far that it does not know how to do that. They are not as well organised as Marvel, and they lack Marvel's foresight as well. They have others issues too.

Even though Arrow is not good anymore, it was good before. The Flash is good now and Supergirl is good too. There will be other good shows in the future, no doubt. It would be a shame to have that quality diluted by mixing it in with the DCEU, which has been crap from the beginning, and looks like it will continue to be. While it is far from perfect, DCTV deserves better than to be mixed in with the DCEU. At least DCTV kind of knows what it is doing.

 

[Paradox1]

I loved Man of Steel and I thought BVS was okay definitely not the crap I was lead to believe. DCCU is fine 2 for 2 to me and Suicide Squad looks great

 

[Slade W]

I loved Man of Steel and I thought BVS was okay definitely not the crap I was lead to believe. DCCU is fine 2 for 2 to me and Suicide Squad looks great

I meant no disrespect to the people that liked the movies. Now that you mention it, I think SS looks good too. I have no expectations for JL though.

 

[Omegabat]

DCEU is a big enough mess as it is. It is a good thing that the universes are not connected, as that would make things more difficult and it would require better planning, and the DCEU has shown so far that it does not know how to do that. They are not as well organised as Marvel, and they lack Marvel's foresight as well. They have others issues too.

Even though Arrow is not good anymore, it was good before. The Flash is good now and Supergirl is good too. There will be other good shows in the future, no doubt. It would be a shame to have that quality diluted by mixing it in with the DCEU, which has been crap from the beginning, and looks like it will continue to be. While it is far from perfect, DCTV deserves better than to be mixed in with the DCEU. At least DCTV kind of knows what it is doing.

I dunno, none of the other shows have been on air as long as Arrow. The Flash has definitely seen a dip between the first 2 seasons and Supergirl ratings were a bleeding wound hence the move from CBS to CW. Legends has had a wobbly start all things concerned. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they're all Arrow levels in quality and ratings by the time they reach the fifth season.

Still DC shows suffer from considerable issues, for one excluding Gotham none of them seem to able to survive on a network not named CW. First it was Constantine and then it was Supergirl, wouldn't surprise me if Preacher and Gotham start facing trouble a year from now. Frankly I'm seeing Preacher go the way of Constantine, I hope it doesn't but I'm not getting good vibes.

Once you're on CW then pandering to teenage girls, Olcity and the ever present "CW" problems are to be expected.

Finally DC shows unlike Marvel do feature heavy hitters, Gotham, Supergirl and Flash have more inherent star power than the likes of Agent Carter, Jessica Jones or S.H.I.E.L.D. Daredevil is Marvel's biggest but even he cant compete with Arrow in star power because Arrow made it's name by being a Batman lite show. Supergirl too is Superman lite, same goes for the upcoming Luke Cage and Iron Fist shows, Arrow will always have the Batman/Nolan factor giving it the edge over them. Marvel simply put has done a better job putting no names on the map. DC has 2 wannabe Batman shows, a not Superman show, a not Superman show just a few years back and the Flash. So yeah DC tv has done a dismal job giving us actual Green Arrow and Gotham shows.

So I think both the movies and tv side of DC are equally bad, I enjoy some stuff but I'll readily take Netflix shows over DC shows any day.

 

[ZIPBAGS]

If they want to separate universes fine. But, don't prevent characters from being used and then continue to say their is no restrictions on who they can use.

 

[Slade W]

I dunno, none of the other shows have been on air as long as Arrow. The Flash has definitely seen a dip between the first 2 seasons and Supergirl ratings were a bleeding wound hence the move from CBS to CW. Legends has had a wobbly start all things concerned. Wouldn't surprise me at all if they're all Arrow levels in quality and ratings by the time they reach the fifth season.

Still DC shows suffer from considerable issues, for one excluding Gotham none of them seem to able to survive on a network not named CW. First it was Constantine and then it was Supergirl, wouldn't surprise me if Preacher and Gotham start facing trouble a year from now. Frankly I'm seeing Preacher go the way of Constantine, I hope it doesn't but I'm not getting good vibes.

Once you're on CW then pandering to teenage girls, Olcity and the ever present "CW" problems are to be expected.

Finally DC shows unlike Marvel do feature heavy hitters, Gotham, Supergirl and Flash have more inherent star power than the likes of Agent Carter, Jessica Jones or S.H.I.E.L.D. Daredevil is Marvel's biggest but even he cant compete with Arrow in star power because Arrow made it's name by being a Batman lite show. Supergirl too is Superman lite, same goes for the upcoming Luke Cage and Iron Fist shows, Arrow will always have the Batman/Nolan factor giving it the edge over them. Marvel simply put has done a better job putting no names on the map. DC has 2 wannabe Batman shows, a not Superman show, a not Superman show just a few years back and the Flash. So yeah DC tv has done a dismal job giving us actual Green Arrow and Gotham shows.

So I think both the movies and tv side of DC are equally bad, I enjoy some stuff but I'll readily take Netflix shows over DC shows any day.

I don't agree that both the movies and TV shows have done equally bad. Even if the shows are not able to maintain good quality, at least they were able to at one stage, if only for a few years, and were satisfying most of their audience. The movies, despite having much better resources, characters, actors etc have been mixed at best. Even if you don't think much of them, the shows, if only for a while, punched above their weight. The movies haven't even achieved the minimal quality expected.

I agree that the Netflix shows are the best of the superhero TV shows. DD is better than most superhero movies IMO.

 

[Mikelus]

I've never seen or heard Amell "whine." He's always been professional. Honest, but professional.

This one was not very professional (from 2014):

‘Arrow’ Star Stephen Amell Blasts Warner Bros. Over ‘Sh-tty’ Ezra Miller Timing

Amell: “I thought that it was sh-tty that all of this stuff got announced the morning of the spectacular ratings of the second episodes of ‘The Flash’ came in”.

source: thewrap.com

The DCEU will be fine, most people like the movies and want to see more of these characters, BvS has a 7.1/10 on IMDb (Superman The Movie 7.3, MOS 7.2). It doesn't matter the movie or show, Superman is just not as popular, Superman Returns only has 6.1 and on the tv side, Supergirl just has a 6.4/10.

The movies are better, they don't have forced love triangles, dumb juvenile humour, stupid comic relief characters, people getting cured with some special tea after falling from a mountain, badly designed, cheap looking suits, etc, etc... The best stuff from Marvel is also the more mature Netflix shows, Daredevil is what Arrow could've been with good writing.

 

[Slade W]

I've never seen or heard Amell "whine." He's always been professional. Honest, but professional.

I agree, he has been a class act and he is very likeable. Compare that to Snyder with his silly comments.

 

[Loki882]

I find the idea that BVS is better than the CW shows to be, debatable personally. And I agree with ZIPBAGS. You want to keep your film and TV universes separate, fine. I can see the logic of that. But then don't be putting restrictions on what characters can b used, or yanking characters that have already bee pre-established on the shows out of them out of the blue (Deadshot, Waller, SS, Black Canary, etc) because you want to use them in the films.

That kind of negates the point of keeping the continuities separate.

 

[Slade W]

You know things are desperate when you have to use IMDb. That site is usually not taken seriously. Superman not being popular is just laughable.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

I've never seen or heard Amell "whine." He's always been professional. Honest, but professional.

DCTV in general has been very professional about it considering the bulls*** WB has put them through on occasion with the incredibly inconsistent embargo that seems to defeat half the point in the universes being separate in the first place, they could be a lot harsher about it and I don't think they'd be wrong in doing so.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

I find the idea that BVS is better than the CW shows to be, debatable personally. And I agree with ZIPBAGS. You want to keep your film and TV universes separate, fine. I can see the logic of that. But then don't be putting restrictions on what characters can b used, or yanking characters that have already bee pre-established on the shows out of them out of the blue (Deadshot, Waller, SS, Black Canary, etc) because you want to use them in the films.

That kind of negates the point of keeping the continuities separate.

I liked MoS and BvS, but I loved seasons 1-2 of Arrow, season 1 of Flash, Supergirl, and quite enjoyed Legends and Flash S2, despite not liking seasons 3-4 of Arrow I still prefer the DCTVU to the film universe, the films have yet to release something that I absolutely love.

 

[Omegabat]

I dont really get the issue, the embargoes might become a real issue later on when the Flash film enters in to the serious development stage but for now I'm not sure why they are displeased with Arrow being denied a bunch of characters. What exactly has Arrow done with the Huntress? is everyone forgetting Canary? or Marc's own admission to being unable to do anything with the Hawk characters moving forward or Manu Bennet's displeasure over how his character was treated. Did anyone here even find Arrow's Waller to be a remotely interesting character? she was duller by herself than BvS in it's entirety , Bronze Tiger too was mediocre and they killed him themselves. This is before I even mention Cupid...ugh,Arrow's Squad was dead on arrival really.

 

[Omegabat]

I don't agree that both the movies and TV shows have done equally bad. Even if the shows are not able to maintain good quality, at least they were able to at one stage, if only for a few years, and were satisfying most of their audience. The movies, despite having much better resources, characters, actors etc have been mixed at best. Even if you don't think much of them, the shows, if only for a while, punched above their weight. The movies haven't even achieved the minimal quality expected.

I agree that the Netflix shows are the best of the superhero TV shows. DD is better than most superhero movies IMO.

The DCEU has 2 films by the same guy, I'll pass judgement when I see Ayer, Jenkins and Affleck's output. We haven't seen enough of the film verse to really be able to predict where it will be in the next few years but chances of it improving are strong as long as they do something about Snyder. On the other hand we've seen enough of the tv shows to know how long it really takes for them to outlast their welcome and to predict the periods of peak and bust. DCEU is mixed bag for me right now but there's a silver lining, the tv shows start strong but are almost certain to be dismal in the long run.

 

[Shadow Moses]

Blaming poor season 3 & 4 on Suicide Squad movie is a lazy excuse for poor writing in general and poor story arcs. They neglected what made the first 2 seasons so great: Arrow himself. He was going solo into missions and taking out 10 bad guys alone with good action scenes. Now he can barely take on two bad guys on his own. He was menacing. He had a purpose and a mission. It was literally Batman-lite tv show. The story was engaging and entertaining. There was actually a sense of danger when he went on missions.

Season 3 & 4 have become Arrow and friends with silly sidekicks and lost its way. The actions scenes are more like dance routines with no sense of danger to the characters. Diggle, Speedy, BDSM Canary (thank goodness shes's dead) are simply not necessary. They should all remain in the cave and only join him on missions when absolutely necessary. (Can you imagine the whole of Star Labs was out fighting with Flash from season 3?) The only sidekick that worked was Arsenal but they got rid of him prematurely. It ultimately became a poor soap opera with Felicity and Arrow. They need to go back to season 1 & 2 and focus on Arrow himself. Drop the numerous sidekicks and have a more centralized and focused Oliver.

 

[Gallops]

Blaming poor season 3 & 4 on Suicide Squad movie is a lazy excuse for poor writing in general and poor story arcs. They neglected what made the first 2 seasons so great: Arrow himself. He was going solo into missions and taking out 10 bad guys alone with good action scenes. Now he can barely take on two bad guys on his own. He was menacing. He had a purpose and a mission. It was literally Batman-lite tv show. The story was engaging and entertaining. There was actually a sense of danger when he went on missions.

Season 3 & 4 have become Arrow and friends with silly sidekicks and lost its way. The actions scenes are more like dance routines with no sense of danger to the characters. Diggle, Speedy, BDSM Canary (thank goodness shes's dead) are simply not necessary. They should all remain in the cave and only join him on missions when absolutely necessary. (Can you imagine the whole of Star Labs was out fighting with Flash from season 3?) The only sidekick that worked was Arsenal but they got rid of him prematurely. It ultimately became a poor soap opera with Felicity and Arrow. They need to go back to season 1 & 2 and focus on Arrow himself. Drop the numerous sidekicks and have a more centralized and focused Oliver.

If the finale was any indication, then it looks like that's where they are going for season 5. Thea is gone (for some period of time at least), Diggle is back in the Army and Laurel is dead. Arsenal is supposed to return for a few episodes this season, maybe to help Oliver on a couple of episode arc for a particular villain or because Thea gets in trouble.

I'm still hoping for a split "Gotham-Style" season where one half of the season deals with one villain, the second half with another. It'll cause less filler and I think will leave writers less room to include poor drama scenes in the episodes because there will be less to need to make a 22-23 episode season with one central villain. They can even make the second half villain be behind whatever happens in the first half to tie it all together.

 

[metaphysician]

I honestly don't get the point of Oliver's vow to stop killing in season two if they were just going to have him kill in (what has so far has been) every subsequent season.

In retrospect, I think that vow, and the general push to have him be a Square Jawed Boyscout, was a bad move. He certainly needed to start acting more like a hero and less like an unstable murderous Occupier. . . but I think they overcorrected. A better target would be more. . .

"I try to be a hero. That means trying to be a better person. I usually succeed. But if a complete monster starts bragging about the horrible things they will continue to do, then it'll just be *too bad* about the arrow in their eye socket."

 

[Slade W]

The DCEU has 2 films by the same guy, I'll pass judgement when I see Ayer, Jenkins and Affleck's output. We haven't seen enough of the film verse to really be able to predict where it will be in the next few years but chances of it improving are strong as long as they do something about Snyder. On the other hand we've seen enough of the tv shows to know how long it really takes for them to outlast their welcome and to predict the periods of peak and bust. DCEU is mixed bag for me right now but there's a silver lining, the tv shows start strong but are almost certain to be dismal in the long run.

We can only go by what we have seen so far. Snyder is still in charge of the big one, JL, and he has also mapped out the whole DCEU universe. I am looking forward to SS, more than I did BVS or CW. If that is not good then I will be disappointed (I wasn't disappointed by BVS because I did not expect much). I don't know what to make of WW, but I hope it will be good.

Right now it is fair to say that the TV shows have done a better job. The comparison will be better when more movies are out by different directors, but atm we can only go by what we have seen. It is perfectly understandable to not expect anything from JL from what we have gotten so far from Snyder. At their best, Arrow and Flash were up their with the best superhero shows on TV. Only the Netflix shows are on another level.

 

[Shadow Moses]

If the finale was any indication, then it looks like that's where they are going for season 5. Thea is gone (for some period of time at least), Diggle is back in the Army and Laurel is dead. Arsenal is supposed to return for a few episodes this season, maybe to help Oliver on a couple of episode arc for a particular villain or because Thea gets in trouble.

I'm still hoping for a split "Gotham-Style" season where one half of the season deals with one villain, the second half with another. It'll cause less filler and I think will leave writers less room to include poor drama scenes in the episodes because there will be less to need to make a 22-23 episode season with one central villain. They can even make the second half villain be behind whatever happens in the first half to tie it all together.

That was the feeling I got in the finale as well. Would be a very welcome change. fingers crossed it goes back to season 1 & 2

 

[Slade W]

Even though characters left, I still think they will come back quickly and that next season will be the same. Too many characters and the writers struggle to find something to do with all of them at the same time, with some characters having nothing to do for ages, and despite this, Oliver not receiving focus on what matters (his journey), but instead his relationship with Felicity. In hindsight, I think they should have had one side-kick on the show at a time.

 

[Gallops]

Even though characters left, I still think they will come back quickly and that next season will be the same. Too many characters and the writers struggle to find something to do with all of them at the same time, with some characters having nothing to do for ages, and despite this, Oliver not receiving focus on what matters (his journey), but instead his relationship with Felicity. In hindsight, I think they should have had one side-kick on the show at a time.

That's why I think Diggle will be out of the picture for half the season. I think Thea will be around, but not be Speedy for a while until Oliver asks her for help or something later in the season. I think a good portion of the season will be Oliver on the streets and Felicity in the command center.

Granted, they can come back Season 5 Episode 1 and they're all out fighting crime.