Arrow Arrow Season 3 Episode 13 "Canaries" discussion thread

[luis4u]

 

[Boy Scout]

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

Arrow Cannaries went up to 1.1 from 1.0 and 2.67 viewers.......I expect it will maintain this for rest of the season. I would hope one of next few episode could boost 1.3 to 1.5 range

 

[Infinity9999x]

So, finally got around to watching this episode.

Canaries pretty much sums up my feeling on this entire season so far: A handful of good, or even great ideas built upon a horrible foundation.

This episode was actually pretty good. It had a lot of great character moments for everyone involved. Laurel's conversation with Ollie, Roy going at it with him, Diggle's talk with him, Thea being brought in, etc. Unfortunately, a lot of these well written scenes are completely undermined by the incredibly uneven quality of this entire season. I would see Team Arrow's arguments against Oliver if so much of what they did by themselves hadn't seemed so incompetent. Their entire argument for allowing Laurel to be there is still undercut by the fact that she has so much less training than every other member of the team (besides Felicity). It was nice to see Thea against Meryln...except she turned on him for a fairly flimsy reason (You tried to break me and Ollie up!) Instead of using the much more obvious reason (YOU *****ING DRUGGED ME AND USED ME TO KILL A PERSON). Roy randomly is on team "No Meryln," after being on team "Pro Meryln" last episode. Why did evil DJ decide to kill Thea now? Why wait this long? And why have him go after Thea first anyway? Why not slip some poison into Ollie's drink?

It's incredibly frustrating. They're kind of all over the place. It actually feels like there's two different teams of writers on this thing. One have a plan for this season, and the other just randomly start writing nonsense to throw in there and see what happens.

It was nice to see an episode that finally resolved a lot of the more annoying ideas this series has been carrying around this season, but it's still frustrating because they didn't really earn the resolution.

 

[Snow Queen]

Watching the episode now:
-Still feels weird Malcolm just waltzing into the base.
-Thea's reaction is pretty decent so far, however I still find it ridiculous she didn't know already.
-How Thea is only now getting mad with Malcolm astounds me. This entire relationship should never have happened.
-I like Laurel's "was my form off?"
-Man they really need to get high collars on their uniforms.
-Sara Doesn't help make Laurel look good bringing her back in to remind me of the better Black Canary.
-"I didn't have to die." You're right, and the show would be better off if you didn't.
-Were Malcolm and Roy listening...?
-So this DJ Nanda Parbeatz (as GamerSlyRatchet named him) subplot feels pretty pointless.
-With all this "Lance will have a heart attack if he finds out" that has gone on this whole season to justify not telling him, the writers really wrote themselves into a corner and by him not having one, make not telling him for so long feel pointless.
-"I am never going to forget the things that you've done or the person you are." Erm...well you did for months already.

Overall: 5/10. It's not great, but it was better than last week. Watching this alongside Agent Carter and The Flash, both of which had great episodes, probably didn't help it look any better.

 

[Human Torch]

Yeah,Vertigo had amazing accuracy when aiming for the neck.

 

[Kar]

I hate how Felicity is saying "Oliver has no say" because he was "left". He didn't abandon them he was killed trying to save Thea. That really annoyed me.

But I love how Laurel just keeps sucking as Black Canary. Can't wait til she gets on her **** though and really kicks ass. My only complaint with her version of Canary is how dolled up she looks. I feel like Laurel needs to get "dirtier" looking like Sara, if that makes sense.

Thea was a rollercoaster for me this episode. First she's forever loyal to Malcolm then immediately its "I can't trust you". Or did Ollie reveal to her what she did? Cause I doubt it seeing as how she wasn't shaken up by it at all.

EDIT: Also....that scene with Quentin and Laurel crying....

 

[Seb]

Yeah, that 'standing up for ourselves' scene came off kinda weird. Roy looks good because he's backing Thea (and Ollie was being a bit of a dick), Felicity comes off even more hypocritical than Oliver. He got stabbed and pushed off a cliff and she's acting like it was harder for her. I get the whole emotional angle, but her job barely changed; Roy and especially Laurel were tossed into the deep end and just tried to tread water, Felicity moaned and stuff like a regular person while the rest of the group pushed through and went above and beyond for the sake of their city. Also, as someone mentioned, she tells Oliver that he has no right to question other people's choices having just last episode had a massive rant at Ollie, questioning his choices. (Also, isn't questioning bad choices exactly what a good friend does?) Her rant comes off even more idiotically since part of her sentiment is 'you can't stop Laurel (among others) from doing this' as Laurel is lying next to her having only survived because Ollie put a tracker on her and saved her.

 

[Sorath]

I think Thea will end up training Laurel Lance.

 

[fire117]

I think Thea will end up training Laurel Lance.

I don't think that'll happen.

 

[mr. peasant]

How Thea is only now getting mad with Malcolm astounds me. This entire relationship should never have happened.

I think it's been well established within the show that Thea has a major pet peeve about being deceived/lied to - especially when it's blatant and that the reason being given is for her own good/protection. Which makes sense as it shows a certain lack of respect from the person, in the "I don't think you should have a say in your own welfare" kind of deal.

Which ties into why Thea seemed so much more okay with Oliver's revelation since he came clean on his own accord.

 

[Boy Scout]

She has no right to feel that way. She lied to Oliver about her association with Malcolm for many weeks, if not months, and only came clean about it after she was confronted by him. Ignoring that, her sudden hatred of Makcolm still doesn't make any sense, because it goes against literally everything she's said and done prior to this episode. I know she's young, but she's proven herself to be fickle and hypocritical, and it's gotten irritating to watch.

 

[Seb]

She has no right to feel that way. She lied to Oliver about her association with Malcolm for many weeks, if not months, and only came clean about it after she was confronted by him. Ignoring that, her sudden hatred of Makcolm still doesn't make any sense, because it goes against literally everything she's said and done prior to this episode. I know she's young, but she's proven herself to be fickle and hypocritical, and it's gotten irritating to watch.

In fairness, what main character in this show isn't a massive hypocrite?

 

[mr. peasant]

She has no right to feel that way. She lied to Oliver about her association with Malcolm for many weeks, if not months, and only came clean about it after she was confronted by him. Ignoring that, her sudden hatred of Makcolm still doesn't make any sense, because it goes against literally everything she's said and done prior to this episode. I know she's young, but she's proven herself to be fickle and hypocritical, and it's gotten irritating to watch.

Like I mentioned before, it's less the lying and more the reasoning behind it. When she neglected to disclose her association with Malcolm, it's because she knew Oliver wouldn't approve and it can also be argued that it really wasn't his business.

Meanwhile, the basis for Thea and Malcolm's relationship stemmed from the latter's claim that only he cared about her and that he was honest with her. A foundation which, as she found out, was based around a lie. He knew that Oliver was the Arrow and that the reason why he wasn't always around for Thea is because he was off saving people. But rather than choose to clear it up, Malcolm chose to use the lie to drive a wedge between her and Oliver. All of which revealed that Malcolm was exactly the kind of person everyone said he was. And all in the name of her "protection".

Which is all not to say that she's faultless or that she isn't hypocritical. However, it's consistent to her characterisation and understandable in terms of a character dissection/analysis.

 

[Nemi]

I think Thea will end up training Laurel Lance.

This could be gold.

Laurel: Thea, I want you to train me.
Thea: Okay, we'll start now.
Laurel: Thank you! Where do we be-*gets punched in the face*

 

[Mikelus]

-Sara Doesn't help make Laurel look good bringing her back in to remind me of the better Black Canary.

-Were Malcolm and Roy listening...?

-With all this "Lance will have a heart attack if he finds out" that has gone on this whole season to justify not telling him, the writers really wrote themselves into a corner and by him not having one, make not telling him for so long feel pointless.

-"I am never going to forget the things that you've done or the person you are." Erm...well you did for months already.

Overall: 5/10. It's not great, but it was better than last week. Watching this alongside Agent Carter and The Flash, both of which had great episodes, probably didn't help it look any better.

Don't worry, Laurel will get there and if she gets the Canary Cry, even better.

The whole Roy and Malcolm intervention was unintentionally funny. Obviously they were spying Thea, so they watched her have sex with DJ *****e! Then Malcolm waits for Roy to be abused to show himself and save the day, perfect timing!

The writers should've written a darker Thea, using Malcolm to then betray him later, what a wasted opportunity.

I don't watch Agent Carter, but The Flash is far from perfect: Iris sucks, more love triangle crap now with Linda in the mix, Eddie has been wasted so far, and I won't be surprised if the whole Wells/Reverse Flash plot ends up not making sense, these producers are not good with consistent storytelling, time will tell.

 

[Boy Scout]

In fairness, what main character in this show isn't a massive hypocrite?

None more so than Thea.

Like I mentioned before, it's less the lying and more the reasoning behind it.

Which I don't think holds up upon further examination.

When she neglected to disclose her association with Malcolm, it's because she knew Oliver wouldn't approve and it can also be argued that it really wasn't his business.

The same could be said for many of the lies Oliver and Roy told her. Thea is perfectly comfortable lying to other people when it suits her, but is the first one to complain when she is on the receiving end.

Meanwhile, the basis for Thea and Malcolm's relationship stemmed from the latter's claim that only he cared about her and that he was honest with her.

And for the most part, he was honest. He never said that Oliver wasn't The Arrow or that he wasn't capable of protecting her. He may have simply felt that he was better suited to the task, which is an opinion, not a lie.

Bottom line: he offered her an opportunity to leave with him and she took it. He didn't manipulate her or force her into it, and when she decided that she wanted to return to Starling City and reunite with her brother, he allowed it. There is no reason for her to believe that Malcolm intentionally tried to drive a wedge between them. Not from her perspective, that is.

Her sudden distaste for Malcolm's character is equally nonsensical. She has demonstrated through words and actions that she is both aware of and comfortable with who he is and the atrocities he's committed. The greatest example of this can be found in episode thirteen. She was so close to Malcolm then, so convinced of his love for her and the strength of his character that she tried to convince Roy - someone who might have lost friends or his home because of The Undertaking - that Malcolm was, at his core, a good person. It should take more than one "lie" for her to turn on him, without even giving him the chance to explain himself.

Thea is, without a doubt, the most fickle character on this show.

Which is all not to say that she's faultless or that she isn't hypocritical. However, it's consistent to her characterisation and understandable in terms of a character dissection/analysis.

It's inconsistent because it flies in the face of everything we were meant to understand about her relationship with Malcolm (which never made sense in the first place, but what are you gonna do?). Thea has always been prone to temper tantrums and flip flopping, though, so in that regard, it is consistent.

 

[Kar]

I never liked the idea of Thea going away with Malcolm in the first place. It made no sense. She thinks she finds out Roy is the Arrow and for some reason that "fact" that he's been "hiding" from her was way worse than anything Malcolm Merlyn has done. I managed to sit well with it once the brainwash element came into play, cause now I can say "oh okay she's under a spell" but now her pulling this whole "you lied to me dad" thing is just....confusing. He's a mass murderer. He shouldn't have been trusted from the jump.

 

[Snow Queen]

I think it's been well established within the show that Thea has a major pet peeve about being deceived/lied to - especially when it's blatant and that the reason being given is for her own good/protection. Which makes sense as it shows a certain lack of respect from the person, in the "I don't think you should have a say in your own welfare" kind of deal.

Which ties into why Thea seemed so much more okay with Oliver's revelation since he came clean on his own accord.

I'd get into this but Boy Scout is doing a good job with that and covering what I'd say better than how I'd put it.

Don't worry, Laurel will get there and if she gets the Canary Cry, even better.

The whole Roy and Malcolm intervention was unintentionally funny. Obviously they were spying Thea, so they watched her have sex with DJ *****e! Then Malcolm waits for Roy to be abused to show himself and save the day, perfect timing!

The writers should've written a darker Thea, using Malcolm to then betray him later, what a wasted opportunity.

I don't watch Agent Carter, but The Flash is far from perfect: Iris sucks, more love triangle crap now with Linda in the mix, Eddie has been wasted so far, and I won't be surprised if the whole Wells/Reverse Flash plot ends up not making sense, these producers are not good with consistent storytelling, time will tell.

I really don't think she can. It's Katie Cassidy, I don't think she's pulling this off. Maybe with a different actress I'd be more onboard with Laurel but not with her.

It's like they had this whole routine planned out while they were listening in.

I'm not sure I could buy that either.

Never said Flash was perfect (Iris sucks, and sadly I still find her the best female love interest in comic book shows right now so that's depressing), just that this week was a great episode.

 

[Primal Slayer]

The whole point of Laurels arc was her trying to be like Sara when she isn't. She isn't suppose to be Sara, be better then Sara, she is suppose to be Laurel and be Black Canary not Canary.

 

[Kar]

That being said, I wonder if the whole thing with her dropping the bo staff and punching Vertigo's lights out indicates she's gonna be doing more fist fighting.

 

[fire117]

I think it's been well established within the show that Thea has a major pet peeve about being deceived/lied to - especially when it's blatant and that the reason being given is for her own good/protection. Which makes sense as it shows a certain lack of respect from the person, in the "I don't think you should have a say in your own welfare" kind of deal.

Which ties into why Thea seemed so much more okay with Oliver's revelation since he came clean on his own accord.

Agreed.

 

[bjavor]

I agree that the whole DJ plotline seems like something got aborted probably due to unfavorable viewer response. The only way his character would have acomplished anything if he had ended up kidnapping Thea and delivering her to Ra's dispite everybody's efforts to protect her...

In addition to everything else that has been said before I'd like to add that the whole cyanide reveal was totally lame too:

So they were having sex and afterwards he poors in some red wine. And she goes: Hang on, I was told once that red wine can disguise the smell of cyanide, and I totally don't smell any now, therefore you must want to poison me. Because clearly any guy offering red wine is suspicious...

 

[The_Manhunter]

Quote of the episode:
"The girl...you know..with the 'boy hair.'"

Another gem from Detective Lance lol

 

[Mike Murdock]

I agree that the whole DJ plotline seems like something got aborted probably due to unfavorable viewer response. The only way his character would have acomplished anything if he had ended up kidnapping Thea and delivering her to Ra's dispite everybody's efforts to protect her...

In addition to everything else that has been said before I'd like to add that the whole cyanide reveal was totally lame too:

So they were having sex and afterwards he poors in some red wine. And she goes: Hang on, I was told once that red wine can disguise the smell of cyanide, and I totally don't smell any now, therefore you must want to poison me. Because clearly any guy offering red wine is suspicious...

Actually, I assumed that Malcolm had her train to smell cyanide in red wine so she did in fact smell it.