BvS BvS Rottentomatoes score - how important will it be, and what do you hope for? - Part 9

[Sarcastic Fan]

I don't think Grace Randolph is biased, I have seen her praise and criticise both Marvel and DC. Marvel and DC fans are just sensitive and precious and don't deal with their favourite movies being criticised very well. That is all there is to it really.

But when you call DC fans who don't like the movie "abusers" then something is clearly wrong with you.

 

[FunkMiller]

But when you call DC fans who don't like the movie "abusers" then something is clearly wrong with you.

She said that?

Asshat.

 

[metaphysician]

She said that?

Asshat.

Can you really say its surprising, though? I mean, in these very threads we've seen people try to push the argument that criticizing a movie and its creators is a direct personal attack on the *fans*.

 

[The Joker]

Can you really say its surprising, though? I mean, in these very threads we've seen people try to push the argument that criticizing a movie and its creators is a direct personal attack on the *fans*.

Sad, but true.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Has anyone seen that ComicBookCast video? Can't post it here due to language but it makes a lot of good points at BvS and Civil War's RT.

Like how WB sent out boxes to all reviewers (at least Youtube ones) with free stuff in it likely as a bribe. Meanwhile Marvel never did that.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Has anyone seen that ComicBookCast video? Can't post it here due to language but it makes a lot of good points at BvS and Civil War's RT.

Like how WB sent out boxes to all reviewers (at least Youtube ones) with free stuff in it likely as a bribe. Meanwhile Marvel never did that.

Naughty naughty, WB.

 

[Wylie Times]

Has anyone seen that ComicBookCast video? Can't post it here due to language but it makes a lot of good points at BvS and Civil War's RT.

Like how WB sent out boxes to all reviewers (at least Youtube ones) with free stuff in it likely as a bribe. Meanwhile Marvel never did that.

Yeah, one of the people that got that free stuff was Grace "People are biased against BvS" Randolph. She even did an unboxing video for one of the gifts that DC gave her and mentioned they also gave her free stuff at the screening she attended.

but everybody else is biased.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Oh the irony.

 

[kedrell]

There is no comparison. Superman III was a clear disappointment in that they expected the film to make more than Superman II, which was a disappointment as far as its box office numbers compared to Superman: the Movie. BvS had better numbers than MoS so I don't see the correlation to Superman III.

I think they are talking about Spider-Man 3, not Superman III.

Yes, we meant Spider-man 3. Although I must say at least for myself personally that even while I don't like Superman 3, I'll take it over BvS. It's about the same level as MoS for me that way.

 

[Tony Gunk]

Grace made some good points and there'll be truth to some of them but I did find it funny that she was defending the film so much after being buttered up by WB.

Also when I listen to what she disliked about other films some of those traits are present in BvS, so either she was buttered up, she's forgetful, or just not particularly good at reviewing films.

 

[Tony Gunk]

didn't she complain about the grin WW gave in the movie?

Yeah, something ridiculous about how it was glorifying violence against women and it might be upsetting to victims of domestic violence

 

[Lily Adler]

I thought Wonder Woman was a masochist myself.

 

[Cobblepot]

If your a good fighter, you're bound to love a good fight.
Her smiling a bit, was probably because she went away for so long and it brought back some good ole memories.

 

[Logan0327]

in the past 10 years snyder's highest rated film is watchmen at 65% how sad is that and BVS is his 4th rotten rated film in a row

why is this man in charge of the DCEU again???

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Can you really say its surprising, though? I mean, in these very threads we've seen people try to push the argument that criticizing a movie and its creators is a direct personal attack on the *fans*.

Yeah a lot of people take these films and the "Marvel vs DC" way too personally.

If you see the "User ratings" page for Civil War on IMDB it shows everything wrong with the CB community.

in the past 10 years snyder's highest rated film is watchmen at 65% how sad is that and BVS is his 4th rotten rated film in a row

why is this man in charge of the DCEU again???

Well his style has a lot of fans, and he has made some good films, but imo the majority of his films just aren't good. I'm suprised he managed to get any work again after Suckerpunch; I thought that movie would have been a "career killer".

 

[Tony Gunk]

Her smiling was one of the few genuinely great moments in the film. I loved it

 

[jmc]

I don't see that many people, if any at all, claiming that those who didn't like the movie didn't get it. Not that there aren't people like that, but this idea that us, who enjoyed the movie, claim you didn't because you aren't smart enough to understand it is just ridiculous. I never said anything like that and i usually don't see people saying it either.

I do, however, believe that some movies might just not have the right elements to please the masses at a certain point in time. Not every artistic work is for everybody. This is just a fact. You still have a big percentage of people who loved the movie. Are they stupid? Dumb? Or are they simply able to enjoy a certain type of movie that rubs a lot of other people the wrong way?

It's not that people don't understand the movie. The problem with this movie, aside from being flawed on several levels, which isn't unusual in a superhero film, even in those that receive decent reviews, is that it had unreal expectations around it. Around the story, the characteristics of the characters, the visuals, etc. Expectations that movies like Ant-Man or Thor never had, because most people don't know enough, or care enough about Thor to nitpick the hell out of it and complain about the character not being exactly the version they hoped for.

Batman and Superman are always going to be more controversial than any other character. Doesn't mean you can't make a crowd pleaser with these characters. But i honestly believe it's going to be a lot tougher than with any other characters. The movie isn't perfect. But it isn't the piece of garbage that some people claim.

I don't think people who like the film are stupid, however I do believe a certain level of bias towards the characters influences how people are seeing the movie. I don't think it's unfair to say the simple fact this movie exists at all is enough for some people to enjoy it.

I maintain though if you change the names of the characters and give them difference costume more and more people would dislike the movie. In contrast TDK or even Winter Soldier you can remove the costumes and change the names and both films still have a firm foundation to build a film around. BvS really doesn't have that foundation, once you remove the costumes you're not really left with anything to build a film around.

I honestly feel these characters aren't that difficult to write for, you've just got to let them be who they are and not try to reinvent the wheel. Tweak? yes. Modernise? Of course. But it's essential the core of who they are is kept because that's what people like about them. It's really that simple. If you want to deconstruct superheroes then go find ones that are suited for that, but these aren't the heroes people want to see deconstructed.

Batman and Superman have expectations on them that Marvel characters don't, but that's just an excuse to use when they're not executed right. People expect three things from these characters, one is for Superman to use his powers to do as much good as possible, the second is for Batman to use his brains and money to do as much good as possible, and the third is that both should value life, albeit in difference ways. Those aren't unfair expectations to have. Those are core values these characters possess that people love seeing. That's not a lot to ask for.

 

[Flint Marko]

Hit the nail on the head, JMC, particularly about people's bias towards these movies. I said this a few days ago but I find it somewhat odd that I haven't heard anyone say "as flawed as BvS is, I still enjoy it because it's nice to see characters I've loved for so long adapted to the big screen, flaws and all".

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Assuming a film is legit enjoyable, Snyder ensures that said film won't get over a 70. He just rubs people the bad way.

 

[FunkMiller]

Hit the nail on the head, JMC, particularly about people's bias towards these movies. I said this a few days ago but I find it somewhat odd that I haven't heard anyone say "as flawed as BvS is, I still enjoy it because it's nice to see characters I've loved for so long adapted to the big screen, flaws and all".

Therein lies the problem. They aren't the characters that people have loved for so long adapted to the big screen, that's why you're not seeing more comments like that.

Sweeping generalisation here, but I'd be willing to bet most of those who like BvS probably haven't been the biggest fans of the characters over a long period of time. Not meant as an insult, it just seems likely that the more casual fan wouldn't have a problem with the massive changes Snyder has made.

 

[Orba]

Therein lies the problem. They aren't the characters that people have loved for so long adapted to the big screen, that's why you're not seeing more comments like that.

Sweeping generalisation here, but I'd be willing to bet most of those who like BvS probably haven't been the biggest fans of the characters over a long period of time. Not meant as an insult, it just seems likely that the more casual fan wouldn't have a problem with the massive changes Snyder has made.

Unfortunately I think that is part of it. I'm not saying all people that liked it are in that position but I have seen more than a few defenders start by saying that they they didn't like Superman before MoS. The problem is a lot of people who don't like Snyder's Superman never had a problem with the classic version of the character, he just needed some good writing.

For some people no killing is a fundamental part of what makes Batman, take that away and he is no longer Batman. Yet for others it sometimes seems that as long as he is in a cool Batman suit they are happy.

 

[JOE]

I rated the film a 4/10, Batfleck was probably half of those 4 points. There's enjoyable parts, but I don't look at RT and find the critics were too harsh. I think it landed where it belonged, IMO. I really feel as if the Suicide Squad is going to a lot better with the critics.

 

[Kobra]

I don't think people who like the film are stupid, however I do believe a certain level of bias towards the characters influences how people are seeing the movie. I don't think it's unfair to say the simple fact this movie exists at all is enough for some people to enjoy it.

Towards and against.

I maintain though if you change the names of the characters and give them difference costume more and more people would dislike the movie.

Maybe not those who trash the movie because of the way Batman and Superman are portrayed. And that's not a small percentage.

Let's stop playing sides. I'm pretty neutral. I enjoyed it but i was disappointed. The movie has a lot of flaws and i have been pointing them out since the day i watched it. A lot of the criticism is absolutely fair. That doesn't change the fact that this film isn't judged in the same light as several other movies with less controversial characters. The amount of time that i've seen people complaining about the movie mainly because Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman or Lex aren't what they were expecting is more than enough for me to come to that conclusion.

 

[MadVillainy]

Yeah a lot of people take these films and the "Marvel vs DC" way too personally.

If you see the "User ratings" page for Civil War on IMDB it shows everything wrong with the CB community.



Well his style has a lot of fans, and he has made some good films, but imo the majority of his films just aren't good. I'm suprised he managed to get any work again after Suckerpunch; I thought that movie would have been a "career killer".

Not enough fans for 3/5 of his last films to turn a profit though...

 

[jmc]

Towards and against.



Maybe not those who trash the movie because of the way Batman and Superman are portrayed. And that's not a small percentage.

Let's stop playing sides. I'm pretty neutral. I enjoyed it but i was disappointed. The movie has a lot of flaws and i have been pointing them out since the day i watched it. A lot of the criticism is absolutely fair. That doesn't change the fact that this film isn't judged in the same light as several other movies with less controversial characters. The amount of time that i've seen people complaining about the movie mainly because Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman or Lex aren't what they were expecting is more than enough for me to come to that conclusion.

That discussion comes about because that's what people want to see. Whether you like it or not the DC characters, at the very least Batman, Superman, Luthor and The Joker, should be portrayed a certain way because that's what most people want to see. It's not about people not wanting to be challenged or having expectations are too high, it's simply people like these characters a certain way. That's just the reality some people need to accept.

It the same reason why a character like Robin Hood can stand the test of time, that characters has values that people like. That's what it all comes down to, their values. Marvel doesn't have the same problem at present, but they will eventually. The day they decided to reboot Iron Man the exact same scrutiny is going to be applied to them. They get a pass at present only because the characters are so new to the mainstream audiences, but that is going to change one day. Eventually Iron Man, Thor, Cap, etc are all going to have the same burden placed upon them as what Superman and Batman have.

But like I said, that's not a bad thing. To say expectation are too high is simply shifting the blame. If a director doesn't understand why people like certain characters a certain way then they are not the best person for the job. You don't have to be strict in your retelling, flexibility should be encouraged, but it's important that the values of the characters are prominently on display during the course of the story. It's not that people aren't open minded, it's just certain characters are loved a certain way and that's how it's always going to be.