BvS BvS Rottentomatoes score - how important will it be, and what do you hope for? - Part 9

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Some users here really overstate the "expectations" people have in regards to these characters. Said expectations don't exist in a significant amount of people outside of the fan community. Your average joe (who makes up the overwhelmingly majority of the audience) isn't going to be up in arms over departures from the source material or previous incarnations of the characters as long as the movie surrounding it is decent. This one just so happens to be a mess, and the audience responded as such.
 
Unless you liked the Nolan films?
 
Exactly Flint. No need to over complicate things.

And the Nolan trilogy proves that audiences will accept all kinds of changes . As long as the core of what made these characters compelling is there.

You know what isn't that important to the audience (including most cb fans)? All the surface details that Snyder seems to think are essential like costuming, gigantic steroidal muscles, and cool shots that mimic panels from the one graphic novel we know the director actually bothered d to read. Blech.
 
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Some users here really overstate the "expectations" people have in regards to these characters. Said expectations don't exist in a significant amount of people outside of the fan community. Your average joe (who makes up the overwhelmingly majority of the audience) isn't going to be up in arms over departures from the source material or previous incarnations of the characters as long as the movie surrounding it is decent. This one just so happens to be a mess, and the audience responded as such.

Oh god yes. We can all nitpick stuff like the big comic nerds that we are, but all the GA care about is a good movie.

This is not a good movie. Hence the stupendous drop off in box office. And funnily enough, it's only the GA that WB will listen too. If we get a change in direction, it won't be because anyone listens to us, it'll be because the money underperformed at the box office, thanks to how poor a movie it was a big whole.

And by massive and happy coincidence, zack Snyder is also a big hole.
 
Ultimately the GA is the main target audience of these films. Ironically, I predicted that BvS would be a film which was much more targeted to the GA. I thought that the GA would end up liking it but fans would be divided because of changes from the source material.

Ultimately, its really a film which seems to be targeted more with fanboys who come to the table with knowledge of specific story arches, and who would get alot of the illusions and easter eggs, and if anything really shuts out the average joe who doesn't know The Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, A Death in the family, Injustice Gods Among Us, Flashpoint, Parademons, The JLA etc.
 
in the past 10 years snyder's highest rated film is watchmen at 65% how sad is that and BVS is his 4th rotten rated film in a row

why is this man in charge of the DCEU again???

Because the WB executives are eternal optimist and expect his next film to be better? Their faith in Snyder reminds me of this scene from Tim Burtons Ed Wood movie.

https://youtu.be/CawVaHxWvnA?t=110
 
That discussion comes about because that's what people want to see. Whether you like it or not the DC characters, at the very least Batman, Superman, Luthor and The Joker, should be portrayed a certain way because that's what most people want to see. It's not about people not wanting to be challenged or having expectations are too high, it's simply people like these characters a certain way. That's just the reality some people need to accept.

It the same reason why a character like Robin Hood can stand the test of time, that characters has values that people like. That's what it all comes down to, their values. Marvel doesn't have the same problem at present, but they will eventually. The day they decided to reboot Iron Man the exact same scrutiny is going to be applied to them. They get a pass at present only because the characters are so new to the mainstream audiences, but that is going to change one day. Eventually Iron Man, Thor, Cap, etc are all going to have the same burden placed upon them as what Superman and Batman have.

But like I said, that's not a bad thing. To say expectation are too high is simply shifting the blame. If a director doesn't understand why people like certain characters a certain way then they are not the best person for the job. You don't have to be strict in your retelling, flexibility should be encouraged, but it's important that the values of the characters are prominently on display during the course of the story. It's not that people aren't open minded, it's just certain characters are loved a certain way and that's how it's always going to be.

Exactly.
 
That discussion comes about because that's what people want to see. Whether you like it or not the DC characters, at the very least Batman, Superman, Luthor and The Joker, should be portrayed a certain way because that's what most people want to see. It's not about people not wanting to be challenged or having expectations are too high, it's simply people like these characters a certain way. That's just the reality some people need to accept.

It the same reason why a character like Robin Hood can stand the test of time, that characters has values that people like. That's what it all comes down to, their values. Marvel doesn't have the same problem at present, but they will eventually. The day they decided to reboot Iron Man the exact same scrutiny is going to be applied to them. They get a pass at present only because the characters are so new to the mainstream audiences, but that is going to change one day. Eventually Iron Man, Thor, Cap, etc are all going to have the same burden placed upon them as what Superman and Batman have.

But like I said, that's not a bad thing. To say expectation are too high is simply shifting the blame. If a director doesn't understand why people like certain characters a certain way then they are not the best person for the job. You don't have to be strict in your retelling, flexibility should be encouraged, but it's important that the values of the characters are prominently on display during the course of the story. It's not that people aren't open minded, it's just certain characters are loved a certain way and that's how it's always going to be.

Say it louder for the people in the back.
 
That discussion comes about because that's what people want to see. Whether you like it or not the DC characters, at the very least Batman, Superman, Luthor and The Joker, should be portrayed a certain way because that's what most people want to see. It's not about people not wanting to be challenged or having expectations are too high, it's simply people like these characters a certain way. That's just the reality some people need to accept.

It the same reason why a character like Robin Hood can stand the test of time, that characters has values that people like. That's what it all comes down to, their values. Marvel doesn't have the same problem at present, but they will eventually. The day they decided to reboot Iron Man the exact same scrutiny is going to be applied to them. They get a pass at present only because the characters are so new to the mainstream audiences, but that is going to change one day. Eventually Iron Man, Thor, Cap, etc are all going to have the same burden placed upon them as what Superman and Batman have.

But like I said, that's not a bad thing. To say expectation are too high is simply shifting the blame. If a director doesn't understand why people like certain characters a certain way then they are not the best person for the job. You don't have to be strict in your retelling, flexibility should be encouraged, but it's important that the values of the characters are prominently on display during the course of the story. It's not that people aren't open minded, it's just certain characters are loved a certain way and that's how it's always going to be.


Its interesting that you use Robin Hood as he really is great example of audiences wanting to see things a certain way. One of the classic things about the Robin Hood stories is the wonderful King Richard who is away on the Crusades, but if you look at history Richard was a truly horrible King. He grew up in France, only coming to England (which he didn't like) when he became King. He took all the money from the country leaving it bankrupt, using it to fund his crusade. Then when he ran out of money he came back and massacred the Jew of York for their gold to fund another crusade. Yet in the Robin Hood stories he is the brave and wonderful "Richard the Lionheart".

So "realistic" Robin Hood story would probably have King Richard as the villain, not Prince John, but that will never happen as that is not what audiences expect from the story. People are used to the legend, and to steal a line "When legend becomes fact, print the legend".
 
Well his style has a lot of fans, and he has made some good films, but imo the majority of his films just aren't good. I'm suprised he managed to get any work again after Suckerpunch; I thought that movie would have been a "career killer".

WB's desperation was his gain. They should have had a red alert come up in their faces when it turned out that the only person who was willing to direct their movies was the guy who never made a good one yet. That should have had "WARNING!" signs all over it in 50 ft. tall letters.
 
Audience score drops again. Now down to 68%. I wonder how far it will drop.
 
Unfortunately I think that is part of it. I'm not saying all people that liked it are in that position but I have seen more than a few defenders start by saying that they they didn't like Superman before MoS. The problem is a lot of people who don't like Snyder's Superman never had a problem with the classic version of the character, he just needed some good writing.

For some people no killing is a fundamental part of what makes Batman, take that away and he is no longer Batman. Yet for others it sometimes seems that as long as he is in a cool Batman suit they are happy.

I suspect that most fans would accept, at least reluctantly, a Batman who is willing to use deadly force, if it were in the sense of "I will go to great effort to avoid killing anyone. However, if you put me in a situation where I literally have to choose between saving the innocent and killing the guilty? I will save the innocent now, and brood about my failures and how to do better later." Which, note, could be a plausible personal ethic *even in a movie where Batman does not, in fact, kill anyone*.

This is, of course, not at all what Snyder did. And its not really how any prior movie framed the matter, either.
 
Its interesting that you use Robin Hood as he really is great example of audiences wanting to see things a certain way. One of the classic things about the Robin Hood stories is the wonderful King Richard who is away on the Crusades, but if you look at history Richard was a truly horrible King. He grew up in France, only coming to England (which he didn't like) when he became King. He took all the money from the country leaving it bankrupt, using it to fund his crusade. Then when he ran out of money he came back and massacred the Jew of York for their gold to fund another crusade. Yet in the Robin Hood stories he is the brave and wonderful "Richard the Lionheart".

So "realistic" Robin Hood story would probably have King Richard as the villain, not Prince John, but that will never happen as that is not what audiences expect from the story. People are used to the legend, and to steal a line "When legend becomes fact, print the legend".

IRONICALLY,

Sir Walter Scott's Robin Hood didn't like killing, do to the fact that he regretted killing a guy with his arrow. So he kind of had a personal code..until Guy of Gisbourne shows up ;)
 
Its interesting that you use Robin Hood as he really is great example of audiences wanting to see things a certain way. One of the classic things about the Robin Hood stories is the wonderful King Richard who is away on the Crusades, but if you look at history Richard was a truly horrible King. He grew up in France, only coming to England (which he didn't like) when he became King. He took all the money from the country leaving it bankrupt, using it to fund his crusade. Then when he ran out of money he came back and massacred the Jew of York for their gold to fund another crusade. Yet in the Robin Hood stories he is the brave and wonderful "Richard the Lionheart".

So "realistic" Robin Hood story would probably have King Richard as the villain, not Prince John, but that will never happen as that is not what audiences expect from the story. People are used to the legend, and to steal a line "When legend becomes fact, print the legend".

Now this is a little bit harsh on Richard.

He did grow up in France, and he did speak mostly French, but it is important to remember that Normandy was part of the kingdom back then - and Richard's family was the one descended from William the Conqueror, duke of Normandy. Most of the nobility did not speak English either. Henry II, widely considered one of England's finest kings, also spent most of his time on the continent and ruled a French court.

And although his crusades and subsequent captivity emptied the coffers of England, it is also true that he was a marvelous military leader in the Cruzades, accomplishing much more than any of his European counterparts. He is described as being extremely brave and charismatic, and he did manage to strike a peace deal with Saladin in the end. Was he cruel from time to time? Yes, but so was Saladin, and we don't look down on him because of it. They were products of their times.

John is considered the villain not because of being inherently evil, but because he did attempt to usurp Richard's crown before Richard's death. Treachery could be forgotten - but it is not like he fared much better once he got the crown either, with the Barons revolting against him and forcing him to sign the Magna Carta. John is the antagonist to Robin Hood because to the noble class, he was antagonizing. Richard was a non-entity, being away all the time, and propping him up makes John look even worse in comparison. It's simply the way things worked out.

Historical debate aside, I agree with your sentiment: people become attached to an idea, even if that idea is not originally true. In the context of BvS, Superman might have been concocted by Jewish creators, and might just jump tall buildings and throw off a sarcastic prank every once in a while, but that's not how he achieved longevity. The version of the character that has endured is the god-like boyscout that everyone remembers. The same goes for the original Batman killing. It may have been a trait in the beginning, but nobody cares, because that's not how the character is remembered.

Delivering the unexpected to audiences can be received positively, of course - but it can also crash and burn just as easily, as we see by this movie's deplorable legs in the box office.
 
Grace made some good points and there'll be truth to some of them but I did find it funny that she was defending the film so much after being buttered up by WB.

Also when I listen to what she disliked about other films some of those traits are present in BvS, so either she was buttered up, she's forgetful, or just not particularly good at reviewing films.

What good points? I looked through her Twitter and found this gem.

Christian Dash - @GraceRandolph @greice_gpcat Never made something up? Prove that the critics are conspiring against DC. You need PROOF for it to be fact.

Grace Randolph - I'll prove it easy, @CHRISTIAN_DASH - BvS isn't 28% level bad, which is its Rotten Tomatoes score.

Wow...she sure proved it there.
 
I feel like she's just trying to get in bed with WB...Or is BvS her favorite movie or something?
 
As I said, she wants attention...or she's nuts. Best to not pay her any mind
 
As I said, she wants attention...or she's nuts. Best to not pay her any mind

She's nuts....

Because once people realized she was accusing them of being corrupt and started calling her out for it she suddenly did the "It's time to move on from this" thing.

She's probably burned all kinds of bridges (again), with this whole thing.
 
Some users here really overstate the "expectations" people have in regards to these characters. Said expectations don't exist in a significant amount of people outside of the fan community. Your average joe (who makes up the overwhelmingly majority of the audience) isn't going to be up in arms over departures from the source material or previous incarnations of the characters as long as the movie surrounding it is decent. This one just so happens to be a mess, and the audience responded as such.

I'm not sure you truly understand the amount of people who grew up watching the old Superman movies and are attached to them. I've had people telling me that to them there's only one Superman. And i'm talking about people who don't read comics.

The people who are affected by those expectations are also the loudest. They're the ones who will shape a movie's perceptions online, because they're the ones who vote and comment the most. You can find these expectations in critics too. And if critics give a movie an horrible score, whose to say that it won't affect its critical and/or financial success?

It's undeniable that there was always a huge level of controversy surrounding this movie. The type of controversy you don't see in other movies. Even the casting was controversial and got people talking. How many people love Bale and his role as Batman? A lot! How many people hate Ben Affleck? Probably a lot more. Most people weren't too happy about Bale being replaced by Affleck. That's very clear just by talking to random people about the movie. I've lost count on the amount of times someone looked funny at me after i said Affleck was the new Batman. Even my mother, who doesn't give much of a damn about these movies. "Affleck? What happened to the other guy i liked a lot?"

You might think that all these things don't matter and people will always fairly judge a movie, without preconceptions, but i just don't agree with you. It's fair to say this movie has problems, because some of them are very obvious. That still doesn't fully explain the amount of hate the movie has been getting from some people.
 
The movie simply has some truly idiotic plot points that are insulting to the GA . I like some parts of the movie but the reason of why superman and batman fight and the reason of why they become ....friends is stupid beyond belief and this lex Luthor is one of the most annoying and incomprehensible characters ever put on film .
 
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