Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[DarthSkywalker]

Classic, being rude while saying "I don't want to be rude".

Oh, considering you decided to be rude fist, stop crying.

My "obvious Marvel bias" ranks WW above Ant-man, you don't.

Yes, and?

Never said that. The USO was a real part of the war effort, and it was essential for the troops (and still is to this day), ask any service member.

The seriousness is from the reaction of the troops who were seeing the horrors of the battle field which Peggy tells Steve, and that's when he finds out about the POW camp. Also I'd say Col. Phillips sending out MIA notifications isn't "avoiding the War".

I know what the USO is. I am asking how the scene is serious.

What you just described is a really bad example of telling, not showing. WW shows.

I was not a fan of the montage, not because of avoiding the war, but I thought it hurt some of the conflict between Schmidt and Cap. As far as the rest, he's on a mission to wipe out Hydra, that's the mission he's assigned. And you're wrong about not going on missions with the Howling commandos. Go rewatch the film, he tells Phillips he wants to wipe out hydra and he's forming a team of his own choosing. Then he goes to a bar to recruit the howling commandos where they're all around singing songs, a scene that's directly stolen in Wonder Woman, then they go out and the montage hits where they are doing missions together. So get your facts straight.

Directly stolen by Wonder Woman... I am sure that scene has never been in a movie ever before. Cap totally invented it. I haven't seen such scenes in a movie ever.

His mission separates him from the war...

You just proved my point. They don't go on a mission together. They montage their time together. There is no showing of team building, no character work, no attachments built, no nothing. A montage, then Bucky "dies". They are now legends and tight as hell. Yeah, no.

Compare that to WW, where the crew has scenes dedicated to such things. The camp scene is a perfect little example of how one little scene can say so much. No Man's Land again, is exactly what we should have got in a Cap movie. It never happens. This is exactly why people call foul on the Bucky relationship before TWS. It is all but non-existent.

You're comparing the character arcs which are totally different. Diana is going off to stop the god of war. Cap is a guy who wanted to serve his country but was physically unable, but because of his intentions he found a way not knowing what the ultimate costs would be. Cap knew all about the war, he just wasn't in it. Diana knew nothing of war which is why she doesn't understand the intentions of the men she's working with based on how she was raised with things being withheld from her.

Consider the USO scenes. It is to show Cap another aspect of war, while revealing he has no idea what war really is. And how could he, he has never fought a war. You mention his conversation with Peggy and that is key in showing this. That the movie never shows him learning what war is, is a problem imo. It shows him blowing up hilarious tanks, fighting goons in mask and taking on the funny guy with the red head. And I don't hate that. I like it. But it is also a weak aspect of the movie because they avoid the war entirely.

We have a pair of idealist, who want to make a difference. Who not by punching people, but inspiring people does so. And in this aspect, the lack of actual character work or development around Steve outside of Peggy is a problem. That the war is ignore is a problem. There is no reason to think he is this symbol. There is plenty of reason to be inspired by Diana in WW.

This is also why TWS and Civil War are so much better films the TFA. They show the conflict in Steve, show why others follow him, why he is an inspiration. His relationships with Falcon, Bucky and Widow are strong, built through battle, through interaction. TWS and Civil War are much more war pictures then TFA.

 

[flickchick85]

My DCEU rankings:

1.) Wonder Woman 9/10
2.) Man of Steel 6.5/10
3.) BvS 5/10
4.) Suicide Squad 4/10

 

[DACrowe]

Much like Ares, they weren't there to contribute to the fight. They were there to give their short stories and open Diana's eyes to the real world. And they got more characterization than any of the Howling Commandos.

I would agree with this. Neither are great, and I will even concede that the group in Wonder Woman were inspired by the Howling Commandos in TFA. But they had just enough development and characterization, with the French-Algerian being at first the slick operator that lets Diana deal with... let's say unwanted male attention. He then introduces her to the concept of racism. The Scottish fellow had more personality than Bucky, never mind the Commandos, and introduced Diana to PTSD and what war can do to someone's psychology. And the Native American chap showed her the relativism of morality over generations. Whereas TFA pretended that the U.S. army was desegregated during WWII. (It was not.)

All around a vast improvement, even if it is also a blatant copy.

 

[AlluAllu]

I too prefer the version of Superman where Clark is not an act. It doesn't sit right with me that the champion of truth would spend that much time pretending to be someone he isn't. But perhaps he will start feeling more like an alien when he outlives Lois.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The second act of Wonder Woman was great, no complaints there. But then you have the first act which feels rushed and a little choppy (my eyes started to wander during the info dump about how Zeus created the island) and the climax is not good.

Wonder Woman feels like a movie that would have been groundbreaking in the 2000's, now it's just extremely derivative.

Your mind started wandering 5 mins in. Damn.

I don't know what can be considered choppy about the first act. I had a much bigger problem with the bookends then the first act proper. Which I thought was rather great.

I think the climax is good, but the third act as a whole isn't great. Mediocre, compared to the really two good first acts.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

My DCEU rankings:

1.) Wonder Woman 9/10
2.) Man of Steel 6.5/10
3.) BvS 5/10
4.) Suicide Squad 4/10

Way too kind to SS.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Hardcore Superman purists will probably hate me for saying this, but for some reason I've always liked the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing. Not even sure why.

Though I imagine the sex would be amazing

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Hardcore Superman purists will probably hate me for saying this, but for some reason I've always liked the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing. Not even sure why.

Though I imagine the sex would be amazing

I like Superman and Wonder Woman dating. But she is not his forever girl. That is Lois.

 

[flickchick85]

Way too kind to SS.

But it had...that make-up. And lighting. And I'm sure the catering was good.

I probably am too kind to it, because it had Viola Davis and Margot Robbie perfectly cast for roles that completely failed them in the writing. But anyone who casts Viola Davis in something gets an automatic 2 points from me just for having the good sense of wanting her in their film.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But it had...that make-up. And lighting. And I'm sure the catering was good.

I probably am too kind to it, because it had Viola Davis and Margot Robbie perfectly cast for roles that completely failed them in the writing.

I definitely agree with that.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

But it had...that make-up. And lighting. And I'm sure the catering was good.

I probably am too kind to it, because it had Viola Davis and Margot Robbie perfectly cast for roles that completely failed them in the writing. But anyone who casts Viola Davis in something gets an automatic 2 points from me just for having the good sense of wanting her in their film.

So if I got this right, your 4/10 score for SS is broken down like this: 1 point for make-up, 1 point for lighting, and 2 points for Viola Davis.

 

[flickchick85]

So if I got this right, your 4/10 score for SS is broken down like this: 1 point for make-up, 1 point for lighting, and 2 points for Viola Davis.

Nah, make-up and lighting are half a point each. Margot gets a point. But otherwise, yeah pretty much, lol.

 

[Kane52630]

As for WW, 4 points for Chris Pine, 1 point for the war scene, and 1 point for Wondy saving people.

 

[DACrowe]

Ares was really bad in the climax. Not Enchantress/Eisenberg Luthor bad, but still worse than any MCU villain.

Aside from Wonder Woman being the first competently made female superhero film, I fail to see it becoming a classic. It's a by the numbers superhero film that happens to be well made, and it stars Wonder Woman. If we get good female superhero films in upcoming years, I'm not sure this will be held in that high regard.

Time will tell I guess.

The Dark Knight's influence is still going strong, almost a decade later.

I standby Ares is serviceable in the same way Pierce or Stane are, although that fight scene does go on too long. Still he really puts Diana's arc in stark terms, unlike most MCU villains, excluding Loki. I am not saying he is a great villain, but he works for the movie and the story Jenkins is telling.

As for the classic status, it is a by-the-numbers origin movie in the sense that it follows the formula. But it does so much more like Sam Raimi's Spider-Man than the MCU origin movies, sans Iron Man 2008. By that I mean it has a real sense of heart and magic to it. While the plot isn't particularly original, it tells it with poignancy and class that makes it a cut above.

And the image of Diana crossing No Man's Land will be as revered, especially by young girls, as much as the chopper rescue scene in Superman. Jenkins just found the magical equilibrium there between popcorn and depth to make it something special and that lasts.

I SO agree. Especially about the villain "problem."

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As for WW, 4 points for Chris Pine, 1 point for the war scene, and 1 point for Wondy saving people.

Kane definitely knows how to hold a grudge.

 

[Snow Queen]

Rewatching Wonder Woman for a second time, I liked it even more. This really is I think the best "pure" superhero movie we've had in a longtime. I think Logan is better, but they're both going down as classics in the genre, and both do very important things for it. In Wonder Woman's case, it tells a beautiful and gripping adventure story with a woman who is going to be looked at as a role model for generations the same way that Christopher Reeve is. Even more so than perhaps Downey, Bale, or other fan favorites.

Also, focusing more on the villain "problem" people have with it, I disagree. Like Logan and the better MCU, non-Loki villains (more Obediah Stane or Alexander Pierce and less the Red Skull or Maliketh) they are completely functional and do not hurt the film at all, even if they do not enhance it.

I know some folks were displeased about how Ares was handled, but really thematically it made a lot of sense to me. I liked it the first time, because it was a clever twist (although I figured it out, none of the folks I've seen it with either time now did). But it also is a great moment because it crystallizes the themes of the movie and what Diana is fighting in a very satisfying way.

With that said, the final fight does go on a tad too long. I also kind of roll my eyes at the line "love can save the world." But other than that, it is a pretty perfect popcorn superhero movie. And so much more.

I agree. I didn't actually mind him much, I thought he worked. Well...mostly. [BLACKOUT]Once he threw on the armour, his dialogue really just devolved, I thought. It was my biggest problem with the last fight, him just screaming more or less what you'd find in a villain line generator.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Kane52630]

[BLACKOUT]Hey who knew a middle aged man with a 401k plan was Wonder Woman's big bad?
I thought he and the twist was terrible.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Fincher]

I too prefer the version of Superman where Clark is not an act. It doesn't sit right with me that the champion of truth would spend that much time pretending to be someone he isn't. But perhaps he will start feeling more like an alien when he outlives Lois.

I just feel it can easily be a waste of time to put too much focus on a character who doesn't really exist, especially in a movie where you have a limited amount of time to develop your characters. Superman II is an exception because it's a significant part of the plot where he's working to keep it hidden and it gets revealed and it explores why he needs it in the first place. But otherwise I want to limit how much time is spent on Superman's nerd impersonation, and then it can be hard to flesh him out as a character because as Superman he often doesn't have the same opportunities for social connection that Clark does.

Lois & Clark's version gets it right for me. Clark is used to develop him as an actual person, while Superman is more of a symbol of the things he believes in.

 

[Roose Bolton]

[BLACKOUT]Hey who knew a middle aged man with a 401k plan was Wonder Woman's big bad?
I thought he and the twist was terrible.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[jmc]

I can't help but wonder if Wonder Woman ended up being the film WB thought they had with MoS. There was a boat load of confidence going into that movie, I can only imagine the shock they must have felt thinking they had an amazing crowd pleaser only to suddenly see it be rejected by a lot of people. That must have been an absolute kick to the nuts.

 

[StormC]

I can't help but wonder if Wonder Woman ended up being the film WB thought they had with MoS. There was a boat load of confidence going into that movie, I can only imagine the shock they must have felt thinking they had an amazing crowd pleaser only to suddenly see it be rejected by a lot of people. That must have been an absolute kick to the nuts.

At least it had a better reception than their first try.

Third time's the charm?

 

[jmc]

It's been a depressing 7 years that's for sure.

 

[MadVillainy]

“Within this genre, it’s difficult to do something new,” he said in part, “and usually you just see a bunch of people killing one another in the outfits and blowing up cities, and, you know. Like, I know there’s a thing called Infinity War coming out, which I like, I don’t… Really? Like, Infinity War? We need more war for all time?” - Chris Pine
http://ew.com/movies/2017/06/02/wonder-woman-chris-pine-infinity-war/

Pine better watch out before I pull up.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I love Pine but what is he talking about?

 

[TeeKay]

Pine better watch out before I pull up.

I understand what he's saying but it's not like WW broke any new ground either.