Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - Part 7

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He didn't die because Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman took on the creature, and Supes eventually killed it. Luthor's plan was for Doomsday to kill Superman. So what was he going to do after the creature did that and turned on him and everyone else?

He certainly didn't create the beast thinking that it turning against him was a guarantee, or even that strong of a possibility, otherwise, why would he? He simply accepted the chance. In his mind, maybe a small chance, since he believed he could control it, but he still accepted it. Like The Joker accepted the chance of someone eventually kill him.

Their plans were not stupid and nonsensical. Luthor's was.

Yes they are. They work in a fictional world with incompetent police force. Oh, well, they didn't really work, right? But still.

Just the fact that they died shows you how bad their plans were.

The audience know why he had super powers. They saw him have a lab accident that was then established in the hospital scene had fused the arms to his spine and they became a part of him. All the Raimi Spider-Man villains got origin stories for how they got their powers. As if you didn't know this.

We don't find out a single thing about this supposed control you falsely claim Luthor had on Doomsday.


Lol...the lab accident. In no way are we given an explanation to why he is able to sustain the kind of damage he sustains. He has tentacles. So ****ing what?


There is a bazillion examples of day time robberies that were never solved, as in thieves never caught. Saying its not viable to attempt a robbery is like saying its not viable to commit murder. Robberies go unsolved, murders go unsolved, criminals all too frequently escape justice and the law. Crime would be non existent if there was no viable success to it.


But what if it doesn't work? How many people have attempted to cause destruction at a large scale without eventually being caught or punished? Most mass murderers have been caught or identified. Most terrorists are eventually identified. How many real world super villains do we have walking around big cities like new york kidnapping people, robbing banks, causing all sorts of destruction without anyone finding out?

We're not talking about a guy who robs one bank. We're talking about a guy who robs banks, kidnaps people, climbs buildings during the day, causing all sorts of destruction, fights Spider-Man on the top of a train and leaves his trace everywhere. How many people have done anything nearly as loud as that and got away with it? Ok, he has tentacles, and super strenght. So what? We have machine guns. Just the fact that he thinks he can walk around in day light doing whatever the **** he wants makes him stupid and only works in fiction.

Because Superman killed Doomsday. Which was not Lex's intended outcome. Total opposite.

I'd ask why you're repeatedly willfully ignoring that, but its a rhetorical question.


With Kryptonite, which exists in the world and can kill kryptonians.

It is not the same thing. Not even remotely. Since we're talking Superman, lets take him as an example. He puts on a suit and goes out and takes on rooms full of men armed with guns. Is his risk factor the same as if normal human Cops did that?

Of course not. Same as how a villain pulling a bank job is not remotely the same risk as unleashing an unstoppable monster on the world. Your strawman holds no credibility.

Neither Doctor Oct or Green Goblin are bullet proof. Green Goblin is an enhanced human, but still human. He can be killed. Plus, he relies on technological deviced that can present malfunctioning problems and even get destroyed. There's nothing about Green Goblin's or Doctor Oct's abilities that guarantee them that the military or the police won't eventually get nail them. Everything they did had strong risks associated

The only times he is exposed in the movie is at the bank, which he fends off by taking a hostage. When he grabs MJ from the cafe, which happens in less than 2 minutes. No time for any Cops to show up. Then finally on a speeding train. Where is the window of opportunity here for the authorities to get him? Is there a standard textbook that says mad scientist villains hide out in old warehouses in New York?

You sit there making these strawmans about investigators in defense of a movie who's main hero is under the public eye of the whole world as a revered hero, yet his secret identity is hidden by a pair of glasses.

In a city with millions of people do you honestly believe a man with 4 tentacles could just walk around in the middle of the day and then escape without ANYONE seeing where he is going? If that happened in real life there would be a ****ing major investigation right away. The swat teams, the military, all in alert 24/7. Do you live here? Planet earth? Because i do and i'm 100% sure if anything like that ever happened the government would concentrate all their efforts in finding this man.

But yeah, let's just pretend he is too fast for everyone. Nobody would even see him. Except when he is climbing buildings and leaving his footprint everywhere. He must be invisible to new york street cameras too. Oh, right, in Marvel world they don't have cameras. And people are deaf and blind too.

So let me get this clear; you want a very specific poll that is below 5%, with a significant number of votes, and has only two options on it?

Remind me why I should go and root through thousands of threads in the Hype archives looking for this for you?

Because i donate to charity.
 
Last post on this because people are getting fed up reading this discussion;

How the heck are we still on this topic after 2-3 days of ad nauseam back-and-forth? Almost feel like this whole discussion was one that was had in the BvS section a while back and it's migrated over here.

LOL! So true. I don't know what's worse (more stupid); Lex or the excuses of the apologists.

I know I feel the same way every time I come back to this thread there still chatting about the same thing.

I don't want the Mods coming to tell me to stop talking to you as well.

He certainly didn't create the beast thinking that it turning against him was a guarantee, or even that strong of a possibility, otherwise, why would he? He simply accepted the chance. In his mind, maybe a small chance, since he believed he could control it, but he still accepted it. Like The Joker accepted the chance of someone eventually kill him.

Because he's an idiot, that's why. That's the whole reason why we are all here ragging on Luthor's nonsensical plans. They don't make a lick of sense unless he is a complete moron. What reason did he have to believe this kryptonian monster would just stop at killing Superman?

He was creating a being more powerful than the entire human race to kill Superman. In what world did he think there was a good chance this thing would stop at just killing one person?

Yes they are. They work in a fictional world with incompetent police force. Oh, well, they didn't really work, right?

Just the fact that they died shows you how bad their plans were.

Superman died in BvS. Does this mean he was a terrible hero?

Lol...the lab accident. In no way are we given an explanation to why he is able to sustain the kind of damage he sustains. He has tentacles. So ****ing what?

What damage, punches from Spider-Man? Spidey pulls his punches. Otherwise he'd be putting his fist through people's faces, and hardly living up to his with great power comes great responsibility credo. Ock slamming into a car? He had the tentacles to cushion the blow, and A.I. wired into his brain and central nervous system to stop him losing consciousness.

But what if it doesn't work? How many people have attempted to cause destruction at a large scale without eventually being caught or punished? Most mass murderers have been caught or identified. Most terrorists are eventually identified. How many real world super villains do we have walking around big cities like new york kidnapping people, robbing banks, causing all sorts of destruction without anyone finding out?

We're not talking about a guy who robs one bank. We're talking about a guy who robs banks, kidnaps people, climbs buildings during the day, causing all sorts of destruction, fights Spider-Man on the top of a train and leaves his trace everywhere. How many people have done anything nearly as loud as that and got away with it? Ok, he has tentacles, and super strenght. So what? We have machine guns. Just the fact that he thinks he can walk around in day light doing whatever the **** he wants makes him stupid and only works in fiction.

If we approached everything in life with what if it doesn't work attitude, we'd never get anything done. What if the car doesn't start this morning, I might as well stay in bed and not go to work. What if I crash my car on my way to work. What if I fail my exams, I might as well not even try and take them.

Will you stop with this strawman argument of asking how many super villains do we have in the world. Its a ridiculously stupid strawman. A character has super powers ergo they have abilities that normal people cannot do, and that gives them a big advantage over regular people. We don't need a real life example of a super villain to know a guy with four tentacles can rip a safe door off, grab the loot, and climb up a building and escape. That makes sense given the powers he was given. You don't need to see a super villain in real life to buy that. Otherwise people wouldn't be touching any movie with a fantastical element in it.

With Kryptonite, which exists in the world and can kill kryptonians.

And how exactly is he going to get the kryptonite into Doomsday? Ask him to hold still?

Rhetorical question. He wouldn't have a chance.

Neither Doctor Oct or Green Goblin are bullet proof. Green Goblin is an enhanced human, but still human. He can be killed. Plus, he relies on technological deviced that can present malfunctioning problems and even get destroyed. There's nothing about Green Goblin's or Doctor Oct's abilities that guarantee them that the military or the police won't eventually get nail them. Everything they did had strong risks associated

Just about every super villain can be killed. They have super powers, they are not immortal. Their super powers give them an advantage for the chances of that to happen to be even less likely than regular people because they have advantages normal people don't. Hence their risk factor is dramatically decreased. Hence why only super powered heroes can stop them.

You are laughably comparing this to the surety of the annihilation of mankind by unleashing an unstoppable monster more powerful than the entire human race. I'm not even going to entertain that ridiculous malfunctioning comment. I'd call that a strawman but its an insult to strawman arguments.

In a city with millions of people do you honestly believe a man with 4 tentacles could just walk around in the middle of the day and then escape without ANYONE seeing where he is going? If that happened in real life there would be a ****ing major investigation right away. The swat teams, the military, all in alert 24/7. Do you live here? Planet earth? Because i do and i'm 100% sure if anything like that ever happened the government would concentrate all their efforts in finding this man.

Considering he can blend into the crowd by hiding his tentacles under his coat, absolutely yes.

They're not going to call in SWAT teams and the military to look for a six armed bank robber lol.

But yeah, let's just pretend he is too fast for everyone. Nobody would even see him. Except when he is climbing buildings and leaving his footprint everywhere. He must be invisible to new york street cameras too. Oh, right, in Marvel world they don't have cameras. And people are deaf and blind too.

He didn't leave any footprints. Not to mention he doesn't use the tentacles to walk on 24/7 since we saw him walk on his own feet plenty of times e.g. in the bank fight. Since when is NY, including the rooftops, monitored by cameras?

If NY was that well monitored by big brother there wouldn't be a place in the world a criminal could hide.

Because i donate to charity.

Try again.
 
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Last post on this because people are getting fed up reading this discussion;

People = handful of posters who share your opinions and aren't in the mood to see someone pointing out the holes in the arguments of those who so vigorously claim Lex is somehow a more nonsensical villain than all the rest.

I don't want the Mods coming to tell me to stop talking to you as well.

You don't? Then why do you keep responding?

Because he's an idiot, that's why. That's the whole reason why we are all here
ragging on Luthor's nonsensical plans. They don't make a lick of sense unless he is a complete moron. What reason did he have to believe this kryptonian monster would just stop at killing Superman?

He was creating a being more powerful than the entire human race to kill Superman. In what world did he think there was a good chance this thing would stop at just killing one person?

It makes enough sense to anyone who paid close attention and is willing to acknowledge what the movie actually showed us, which was Lex gathering knowledge from the ship. By what we saw, it's 100% acceptable to assume that anything he knew or thought he knew about Doomsday was transmitted to him through the ship's A.I.

Superman died in BvS. Does this mean he was a terrible hero?

Are you comparing Superman to Doctor Oct? In order for Doctor Oct to do what he needs to do the police force needs to be absolutely useless. Superman grew up knowing nothing could stop him. He had all the reasons to believe he really could protect the world without being harmed. There's no reason for Doctor Oct to believe that having 4 tenctacles will stop the best special forces in the world from pulling a bullet through is head.

What damage, punches from Spider-Man? Spidey pulls his punches. Otherwise he'd be putting his fist through people's faces, and hardly living up to his with great power comes great responsibility credo. Ock slamming into a car? He had the tentacles to cushion the blow, and A.I. wired into his brain and central nervous system to stop him losing consciousness.


I love you come up with all sorts of assumptions but then act like it makes no sense to do the same with Lex Luthor. Ahahaha.

Yeah, right.

How does a hard material cushion anything? You must be basing your laughable explanation on some sort of special comicbookish laws of physics.

If we approached everything in life with what if it doesn't work attitude, we'd never get anything done. What if the car doesn't start this morning, I might as well stay in bed and not go to work. What if I crash my car on my way to work. What if I fail my exams, I might as well not even try and take them.

Will you stop with this strawman argument of asking how many super villains do we have in the world. Its a ridiculously stupid strawman. A character has super powers ergo they have abilities that normal people cannot do, and that gives them a big advantage over regular people. We don't need a real life example of a super villain to know a guy with four tentacles can rip a safe door off, grab the loot, and climb up a building and escape. That makes sense given the powers he was given. You don't need to see a super villain in real life to buy that. Otherwise people wouldn't be touching any movie with a fantastical element in it.


There's nothing about the abilities of Doctor Oct that would stop him from getting shot and killed. He is enhenced, not bulletproof or immortal. Yeah, he can do better than the average joe on the street, but that's not saying much. I see zero reasons for the government not catching him as soon as he is spotted for the first time.

And how exactly is he going to get the kryptonite into Doomsday? Ask him to hold still?

Rhetorical question. He wouldn't have a chance.

He can create bullets out of kryptnite and a device to fire them. Not that difficult to come up with a solution in the fictional world.

You are laughably comparing this to the surety of the annihilation of mankind by unleashing an unstoppable monster more powerful than the entire human race. I'm not even going to entertain that ridiculous malfunctioning comment. I'd call that a strawman but its an insult to strawman arguments.


No. I'm comparing the willingness to die if necessary. All these super villains show they're willing to die trying. In reality, the chances of Doctor Oct dying are a lot bigger than the chances of Lex dying. When Lex created the monster he believed he could control him. So right there you have that chance. The chance that he actually controls him. On the other hand, there's absolutely no way that in the world as we know it Doctor Oct wouldn't get caught or killed. ABSOLUTELY ZERO chance.


Considering he can blend into the crowd by hiding his tentacles under his coat, absolutely yes.

They're not going to call in SWAT teams and the military to look for a six armed bank robber lol.

I love your simplistic and unrealistic train of thought. It's like you don't even know real life.

Yeah, right, he gets spotted several times, in several places, leaving traces of destruction in buildings, and nobody is gonna notice. Nobody is gonna call the police. The cameras won't capture him. Dude, are you sure you leave your house? I mean, to go shopping and stuff?

He didn't leave any footprints. Not to mention he doesn't use the tentacles to walk on 24/7 since we saw him walk on his own feet plenty of times e.g. in the bank fight. Since when is NY, including the rooftops, monitored by cameras?

If NY was that well monitored by big brother there wouldn't be a place in the world a criminal could hide.

Fact: NY has street cameras

Fact: The bank has cameras

Fact: He was spotted by several people in several places

Fact: He uses his huge tentacles to climb buildings, makes them shake and is, overall, pretty noisy.
 
So yeah, we can only give so many warnings. I was running out of ways to phrase them. Carry on, folks.
 
So yeah, we can only give so many warnings. I was running out of ways to phrase them. Carry on, folks.

Thank you. Standing "O"! I did not like how he made fun of the poster Doctor Octopus a couple pages back.
 
Before Part 7 ends, someone let the last post be that Luthor was a crappy villain.
 
I have seen plenty people use the argument that Lex thought that he could control Doomsday because he comes partly from Lex's own blood. But how does that make any sense? Because we can control our own blood? Because when we give birth to children they automatically obey us, because they come from us? Yeah ... that is not how it works ...

First of all there is a thing in nature and evolution studies that points to "kin detection". Plants recognizing genetic siblings in proximity and behave very differently in the branches and roots. There have been plenty of experiments and study on it. You have it with animals as well though it often depends more with phenotypes and the means by which they can be detected. Some of it's purpose in nature is to prevent inbreeding or to simply identify family members for various beneficial natural section purposes. Animals were often limited by their sensory capability. With earth bound kryptonians seeing blood siblings with your eyes alone is changes the parameters of sensory limits, they may very well be able to do it with their noses(given some canon). And there is always the idea that doomsday would have simply looked like lex and that would have been that. As for what all of that would yield on a base level, not some guarantee of automatic obedience, there is never any guarantee, but one can see in both science fiction and in non fiction that there is a basis for kin to do no harm to their own blood. And these are with creatures of baser instincts. There is no telling what Doomsday actually is, or capable of intelligence wise, especially on paper and out the outset. If an intelligible creature emerged given the particular hybrid mix, a blood relationship could yield obvious advantages.

We've seen in movies like alien how alien species treat Ripley when she is 'one of them', a thing they can detect by smell. That's the advantage at a base level
 
This is where you lose. You're filling in the blanks with whatever you'd like based on nothing in the film.
With all due respect, this always happens when you present your evidence that isn't as demonstrable as you claim, right on cue too. You said you had it, you cited video evidence I all but pointed you to and it didn't say what you needed it to say so naturally it's me. That 'card' always be played when your facts are scrutinized, examined or explained.
You said: "Nothing in the movie implies as much. It actually presents the opposite, in fact. Unlike you, I'm going to draw my conclusion from what was presented in the film." Then you trumpeted our your evidence. This so called fact then turned out not to be warnings of danger, but warnings of forbiddings, laws decrees of desecration from a long dead body of authority, one that made a habit of doing so when it came to genetic modification. And you claim this was warning of danger as "fact". Your evidence almost never says what you need, certainly not as fact, even when you tried with numbers. Then you cry pedantry or the like when the idea that it's not a fact but arguable as presented. And yes tiresome for all of us.

Speaking of goal posts, nothing has been moved for the discussion was always that of if 'moronic stupidity, level of thought', Dude called lex a moron(like 20 times now, because he made something dangerous without thinking of how to either control or survive it, resulting in a bad villain scheme, one of the 'worst ever' when looking it through the eyes of straight forward convention. I said for one, there were planed controls, so much as to say luthor stood confidently in front of the monster which asserts there was a thought of immunity(suspiciously ignored here), there was a celestial info dump and there was a blood ritual all pointing to this same conclusion. I asserted if one needs to point the finger at level of intelligence then why not ALSO(also) point it at a super genius making an exponentially advanced alien A.I. and not at the very least closing off it's circuit to any network(seems like a standard fail safe if I've ever seen one, one that solves just about every problem). People keep hiding behind stark assumed he was making a benevolent thing so it's not a mental strike against him if didn't occur to him to plan if something went wrong. Fine let's play that game, that doesn't make him as dumb as you assert luthor supposedly is, that makes him what exactly? Given how smart he's been written at this stuff and given the potential for destruction he himself determined in seconds once faced with the prospect that his A.I. wasn't a nice guy but simply a guy. That makes him what? I say it makes him as 'dumb' and ego driven as his peers said he was. If he could do it again, I'm sure he would do it in a 'smarter' fashion. Or maybe he'd do it the exact same way, given how intellectually sound that method supposedly was. Given he jumped right into the next opportunity to play with unsafe world ending A.I. danger in that same movie I can't say. Not recognizing the danger with which you tamper with is a measure of intelligence. If you are playing with a nova bomb level nuke, if you don't understand what it's capable off because you are focused on the path of clean energy 'scientific discovery' you aren't doing things in a 'smart' fashion. The whole point was measuring if intelligence was either good or bad. If you guys want to argue it's absent in one arguable scenario I only question how much of it is there in the other, especially when dealing with 'really smart guys'.

And yes you have asserted numerous times that we were pointed to the birth of a' hateful devil, deformity'. However I pointed to the fact that his is only stated in language. Quasimoto the hunchback could be cited as the same in language. My point as it's always been was that none of this was in the direction of Luthor. Luthor could be said to have been making just that, which is why I said all those 'warnings' you supposedly saw could have been of a Proteus like simpleton that would have been a deformed monster by definition/appearance but his own monster, family, blood of his blood... Maybe if you had footage of warnings that Luthor wouldn't be able to control the monster, that he was in danger your point would subvert this point that subverts yours, you don't. You keep pointing to this 'sole purpose of killing and destruction' stuff. You go ahead point me to the part of the film that states this 'fact' plainly so we can put this to bed. Better yet I'll do it for you. The one place any such thing is said of doomsday singular purpose is from the mouth of it's own creator, Luthor. And that purpose is: "blood of MY blood! Born to destroy YOU! YOUR Doomsday". That's all. This is luthor's plan and the only place you you hear about doomsdays purpose and ambitions before the fact are from luthors own will, a singular purpose in birth to kill superman as was his cited 'plan' going in.

Let's try this a simpler way. You: "At 1:14, the ships AI tells him, "the Kryptonian archive contains knowledge from over 100,000 different worlds". Lex responds, "good. Teach me"." The very next thing we see is Luthor pouring his own blood on the creature and people like you hollering that you don't know why he's pouring blood on it. Gee, could the reason maybe possibly have been divulged to the character during that portion of the film where he was, gee I don't know "TAUGHT STUFF", stuff we weren't.
I mean seriously that this keep coming up is pretty gnarly. For character beliefs to make sense, the character themselves need to be made privy to information, not the audience.
This now reminding me of when Kevin Spacey was 'TAUGHT STUFF' in superman returns about about crystals, and the next thing we all knew he was making giant things out of crystals based on procedures and internal logic to the film. There were no people on forums going "Wait how is lex going to stop that landmass from growing, in real life when I make make sugar krystals I can stop them from growing by removing them from their source of material, this movie didn't show me how luthor plans to stop that thing from increasing." No all it did was show you Luthor was 'TAUGHT STUFF' and that was that. But now plans and procedures need to be thoroughly thought to the audience along with main character. The worst is people here talking about what such blood rituals yield in our world, in their own experience. Because these people know all the parameters of alien resurrection machines on cross bred animal systems in a sci fi fiction. Next it will be people talking about why spiders that have been in microwave ovens won't give you powers with a bite, such the wrong way to go about it.

This discussion is over.
good riddance. I have netflix to watch.
 
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Woah we're still talkin bout BvS? They need to drop some more Strange stuff so we can compare Suicide Squad vs Doc Strange amirite? :funny:



Sb: Im jokin carry on.
 
I like Lex Luthor a lot as a character (particularly in concept, but rarely in execution). Obviously Eisenbergs was a swing and a miss, but the closest he got to impressing me were in the following two lines and even in his execution of the lines. Not too bad I'd say:

"If God is all powerful, then he cannot be all good. And if he is all good, he cannot be all powerful."
"We know better now, don't we? Devils don't come from hell beneath us. No, they come from the sky."

Now, the fact that both lines are biblical in nature is probably a coincidence more than anything, but that's the thing, Snyder relied so heavily on Christianity to get his points across that it left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth.

Some other themes they should have addressed or honed in on:
- Lex Luthor doesnt see Superman for what he is, he sees him for what he could be. If Superman decided to destroy or enslave mankind he could. That's why in Crisis on Two Earths he made such a great hero. Because, he shouldnt be made out to be psychotic or evil in his motivations. Just, occasionally, in his actions.
- Subtle jealousy. Lex Luthor was one of the most powerful people in the world before Superman made himself known. And now there's no way he can surmount that type of power. Despite perhaps trying. TAS Lex was pretty big into physical fitness.
 
So yeah, we can only give so many warnings. I was running out of ways to phrase them. Carry on, folks.
Thank you. Have we got confirmation that was indeed someone new or was this a previously banned person who came back only to get banned again because this was a quick flameout?
 
Thank you. Have we got confirmation that was indeed someone new or was this a previously banned person who came back only to get banned again because this was a quick flameout?
Strong suspicions, but no confirmation. Either way, he managed to earn a fresh banning even without that baggage.
 
Thank you. Have we got confirmation that was indeed someone new or was this a previously banned person who came back only to get banned again because this was a quick flameout?

Pretty sure you were right and it is or was Kobra.
 
So I am going to say when it comes to quality, the MCU has already won 2016 without DS even coming out yet. CW pretty much already won the title.

However, I think DCEU has a chance to win the year financially in terms of box office take. With DS being such an unknown commodity it could very well be a financial bomb. Who would have thought that when the first reviews came in for SS.

However, as a DC fan, I don't think anybody can say that Marvel doesn't take risks. The fact that a DS movie is coming out is crazy to think about. I really have no idea how this is going to be received by the public
 
Pretty sure you were right and it is or was Kobra.
The fact he never refuted it even after being accused multiple times made it pretty clear it was him. That's why I never engaged with him since I knew he'd be gone shortly, either because he'd got caught or he'd flame out again.
 
Captain America the First Avenger spilled more, and it's not 'R' rated.
 
So I am going to say when it comes to quality, the MCU has already won 2016 without DS even coming out yet. CW pretty much already won the title.

However, I think DCEU has a chance to win the year financially in terms of box office take. With DS being such an unknown commodity it could very well be a financial bomb. Who would have thought that when the first reviews came in for SS.

However, as a DC fan, I don't think anybody can say that Marvel doesn't take risks. The fact that a DS movie is coming out is crazy to think about. I really have no idea how this is going to be received by the public

After the success of Ant-Man of all characters, I think the MCU has nothing to worry about with Dr. Strange. At this stage I think the MCU could sell ice to an Eskimo.
 
I'd argue after Guardians of the Galaxy, Marvel proved obscurity makes no difference.

Ant Man was at least a major Avenger in the comics. What the hell is a Star Lord?
 
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