Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - Part 7

[The Joker]

Not the genius we wanted him to be.

He wasn't anything we wanted him to be. Terrible villain through and through.

There were a number of other differences as well.

Stark had received a vision of the future in which the world was destroyed by aliens, so there was also (at least in his view) a lot of risk in not doing it.

Stark was also very experienced in the field, having already created at least two advanced AIs in JARVIS and FRIDAY without issue.

Ultron becoming self-aware on its own, when it did, and when Stark and Banner weren't even present was a complete surprise and not something that could have been easily foreseen.

Similarily, Ultron being able to completely overwhelm and destroy JARVIS (the most advanced AI on the planet at that point) in seconds was a complete surprise.

Stark definitely knew their were risks (he and Banner discuss it earlier), but they ultimately felt the risk-reward was in their favor and there was a reasonable assumption that if things went wrong that Ultron could be shut down. It was really the speed and timing at which everything happened that completely caught them off-guard.

That's not the same as the Doomsday situation at all.

Not that Stark didn't screw up. He absolutely should have gotten approval rather than just messing around with alien tech in secret. But I think it is fair to say that Stark ends up paying for his decision. The one part that does kind of bug me is how Stark ends up getting all the blame, even though Banner was involved too. It seems that Banner gets off easy, both in-universe and from the fandom.

I'm not missing anything. You're simply making up numbers and deciding for yourself, with no real world basis, which scenario is more likely to put the villain's life in danger.

First off all, like i said before, if Lex created the monster is because he thought he could control it. Now you can ask "How did he know he could control it? Where did he get that from?". And the answer would be: from the same source he got the knowledge to build Doomsday. That's the only logical answer.

Now, there's always a chance that the monster could turn against him. And it did. I just don't see how you determine that that chance is higher than the chance of a man with 4 tentacles climbing buildings getting shot by the police. You just can't do it because you don't have real life examples. Like i said, you're making up numbers. To me both plans are extremely risky. What's the point of trying to decide which one is more risky? Does it change anything? The chances of something going wrong are extremely high in both situations.

Of course you are. How am I making up numbers? The movie explicitly states Superman has the power to destroy earth. Another kryptonian creature than can kill Superman therefore has the same power. Fact, not opinion. Logic.

You keep saying Lex created this monster because he thought he could control it but we are given no reason to believe this. Why should he think he could control it? Because his DNA is in it? How does that work exactly? If a normal human can control an alien monster, then there has to be an explicit reason why, and the movie offers none, ergo he couldn't control it, and we are given no reason to believe he can.

Which means he created something that could finish him off as well as the rest of humanity. Which means he willingly signed his own death warrant. Which makes him a first class idiot.

Comparing someone who willingly enacts a plan that guarantees his own doom, when we are given no reason to believe he is suicidal for his cause, or wants mankind wiped out either, to a guy who wears a Goblin suit, or four tentacles on his back is laughable. Your whole argument has no merit and is one weak strawman.

Exactly. For comparison, we know characters like Dr. Octopus and Zemo were suicidal because they actually tried to commit suicide. That's pretty tangible.

Also a good point.

But..but, you gotta watch the deleted scenes, read the extended universe comic books, wikis, novelizations, toys, porn to get the whole picture man.

 

[BlZARRO]

He wasn't anything we wanted him to be. Terrible villain through and through.







Of course you are. How am I making up numbers? The movie explicitly states Superman has the power to destroy earth. Another kryptonian creature than can kill Superman therefore has the same power. Fact, not opinion. Logic.

Again, you just can't have a discussion without misinterpret what people say. You're basically debating something that was never even brought into question.

Doomsday can be dangerous, like Superman. Whe did i say he couldn't? Where did i say there was no risk involved? There's a risk involved and Lex accepted that risk, just like all the other villains accepted the risks associated with whatever they were doing.

All i'm questioning is your made up numbers. I'm questioning your logical process when it comes to determining which plan has higher risks to turn against the villain.

I suggest you to focus on what i actually say. Stop making up ******** and fake arguments.

You keep saying Lex created this monster because he thought he could control it but we are given no reason to believe this. Why should he think he could control it? Because his DNA is in it? How does that work exactly? If a normal human can control an alien monster, then there has to be an explicit reason why, and the movie offers none, ergo he couldn't control it, and we are given no reason to believe he can.

I never said the movie offers you a reason. The movie doesn't go into details regarding such matter. All we know is that he gathers the knowledge to create Doomsday through the ship's A.I. Now, you can assume that he has no reason to believe that he would be able to control Doomsday and is simply stupid, or you can believe that the knowledge that was passed to him gave him that notion.

Either way, he literally asks for that knowledge, so why would you assume that anything he does regarding Doomsday isn't the result of what the ship thought him?

Which means he created something that could finish him off as well as the rest of humanity. Which means he willingly signed his own death warrant. Which makes him a first class idiot.

Yeah, by that logic all villains are first class idiots since they all put themselves in situations that can be fatal to them.

Not sure i understand your point. Are you trying to prove that the chances of Doomsday turning against him are bigger than the chances of other villain's plans failing, therefore he is more idiot than all the rest? Because you're really not doing that. All you're doing is, for lack of a better argument, repeating over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that Lex created something that could potentially turn against him, which is something everyone who watched the movie already knows.

Yes, villains, and criminals in general, come up with crazy plans that have a high chance to fail. That's what Lex did, that's what every other villain does. Are they all stupid? Yes, they are. Either that or simply crazy.

Comparing someone who willingly enacts a plan that guarantees his own doom, when we are given no reason to believe he is suicidal for his cause, or wants mankind wiped out either, to a guy who wears a Goblin suit, or four tentacles on his back is laughable. Your whole argument has no merit and is one weak strawman.

No, your argument has no merit and pretty much everything you write on this forum is one weak strawman. The last time you acted like i was talking nonsense, you went on to create a poll that later pretty much proved that i was right and you were wrong. Maybe you should start being a little more humble.

First off all, his plan doesn't guarantee absolutely nothing. You're simply assuming that he knew from the beginning that he wouldn't be able to control Doomsday, when the fact that he did create it simply shows us that he has faith in the success of his creation, otherwise, why would he create it, since, like you said, we're given nothing to believe he is suicidal? If the man creates the beast, that's because he thought he would be able to control it.

I can agree with you that it would have been better if we were given a little more explanation regarding certain things. But i have no problem with movies that don't spood feed me. I can put two and two together. That's why it doesn't bother me. I undertood it. I put two and two together and i understood the plot.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

A lot of people turn suicidal when they see no way out of their problems. There's a difference between giving up when you no longer have nothing to live for and actually not caring about staying alive while you're trying to accomplish an objective.

Was Green Goblin suicidal too? Was The Joker suicidal too? Was Dr.Crane suicidal too? Was Iron Monger suicidal too? Was Loki suicidal too? Maybe Lex is the only that's not suicidal. I mean, whatever fits the purpose of your argument.

Lex Luthor not suicidal he only stupid. He make Doomsday when he not able to control him and then think he will just be able to survive when Doomsday finished killing Superman. Like Doomsday going to retire just because he kill Superman lol.

Lex Luthor plan make no sense. He just stupid when he supposed to be genius. Snyder not understand any of characters he use.

 

[BlZARRO]

Lex Luthor not suicidal he only stupid. He make Doomsday when he not able to control him and then think he will just be able to survive when Doomsday finished killing Superman. Like Doomsday going to retire just because he kill Superman lol.

Lex Luthor plan make no sense. He just stupid when he supposed to be genius. Snyder not understand any of characters he use.

He not suicidal. He stupid. He very very dumb man. Very weak villain.

I agree.

 

[The Joker]

Again, you just can't have a discussion without misinterpret what people say. You're basically debating something that was never even brought into question.

Doomsday can be dangerous, like Superman. Whe did i say he couldn't? Where did i say there was no risk involved? There's a risk involved and Lex accepted that risk, just like all the other villains accepted the risks associated with whatever they were doing.

All i'm questioning is your made up numbers. I'm questioning your logical process when it comes to determining which plan has higher risks to turn against the villain.

I suggest you to focus on what i actually say. Stop making up ******** and fake arguments.

No, you're not accepting risk. Not this risk. You've been trying to equate the massive cataclysmic risk that idiot Luthor took to other CBM villains, when its not even comparable. Robbing a bank in broad daylight, or attacking Time Square in broad daylight, especially when you have super powers, is not even comparable of a risk as unleashing an unstoppable alien monster that can destroy humanity.

What numbers are being made up here? Ones where you equate a malfunctioning laptop to humanity's destruction?

I never said the movie offers you a reason. The movie doesn't go into details regarding such matter. All we know is that he gathers the knowledge to create Doomsday through the ship's A.I. Now, you can assume that he has no reason to believe that he would be able to control Doomsday and is simply stupid, or you can believe that the knowledge that was passed to him gave him that notion.

Either way, he literally asks for that knowledge, so why would you assume that anything he does regarding Doomsday isn't the result of what the ship thought him?

You have no reason to assume that. This is a major plot detail, and no information is offered or even hinted at, so you don't just assume he was told this off screen some how. We are given no incentive to believe that.

He asks for knowledge on how to make something. That doesn't equate to written instructions on how to make it your controlled puppet, too.

You can clone a tiger in a lab. That doesn't mean it will be your tame pet.

Yeah, by that logic all villains are first class idiots since they all put themselves in situations that can be fatal to them.

Your worst strawman of all. What Police Officers do can be fatal to them. Ditto with Firemen. Soldiers. Fictional superheros who put on costumes and fight crime etc.

You keep futilely attempting to take the concept of risk and apply to everyone who does anything that can be remotely dangerous. It is not comparable to some idiot who decides to make an alien monster nobody has ever made before, who can't control it, and it can take out all of humanity. That's a risk level of epic proportions that has only one outcome; death for everyone including the moron who made the creature.

Not sure i understand your point. Are you trying to prove that the chances of Doomsday turning against him are bigger than the chances of other villain's plans failing, therefore he is more idiot than all the rest? Because you're really not doing that. All you're doing is, for lack of a better argument, repeating over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that Lex created something that could potentially turn against him, which is something everyone who watched the movie already knows.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Villains have much greater chances of success because their plans have more controlled variables, and often back ups and fail safes in case something goes wrong. Whereas what did Luthor do to guarantee Doomsday would obey, or what is he going to do if Doomsday turns on him and everyone?

No, your argument has no merit and pretty much everything you write on this forum is one weak strawman. The last time you acted like i was talking nonsense, you went on to create a poll that later pretty much proved that i was right and you were wrong. Maybe you should start being a little more humble.

Haven't you done a bang up job proving that with your laptop like analogies.

That poll proved nothing as it didn't even crack 50 votes. I can get more votes on a poll about Batman 1966 in this forum. When it starts hitting triple digits we'll get a real feel for what way it goes.

Until then I'll get humble when you offer up a credible argument.

First off all, his plan doesn't guarantee absolutely nothing. You're simply assuming that he knew from the beginning that he wouldn't be able to control Doomsday, when the fact that he did create it simply shows us that he has faith in the success of his creation, otherwise, why would he create it, since, like you said, we're given nothing to believe he is suicidal? If the man creates the beast, that's because he thought he would be able to control it.

This is the whole entire problem right there. Why would he create such an indestructible uncontrollable creature, unless he was an idiot. Which he is. Because we have no reason to believe he made knowing he could control it. How did he think he could control it? What safeguards did he have ready in case Doomsday went off book and turned on him? We didn't see anything to suggest he accounted for any of this.

He literally went in and got a recipe to make a creature that could wipe out humanity. He had nothing to control that. Ergo he is an idiot. His plain was reckless, stupid, and suicidal. Plain and simple.

I can agree with you that it would have been better if we were given a little more explanation regarding certain things. But i have no problem with movies that don't spood feed me. I can put two and two together. That's why it doesn't bother me. I undertood it. I put two and two together and i understood the plot.

Giving information about a vital plot point is not spoon feeding. Its called good story telling. Your math seems to off from many other people's, as one of the main criticisms against BvS was Luthor's nonsensical plan.

Your two plus two equals a five.

 

[BlZARRO]

No, you're not accepting risk. Not this risk. You've been trying to equate the massive cataclysmic risk that idiot Luthor took to other CBM villains, when its not even comparable. Robbing a bank in broad daylight, or attacking Time Square in broad daylight, especially when you have super powers, is not even comparable of a risk as unleashing an unstoppable alien monster that can destroy humanity.

You and the humanity...Lex doesn't give a crap about humanity. You can drop that one right now so we don't need to go on and on and on with this forever.

Super powers? What super powers does Doctor Oct have? Is he bullet proof? If he is, i don't remember that being established in the movie.

I don't care which risk is bigger. I have no way to calculate that. All i care is that they were all under the risk of getting stopped, by the cops or by Spider-Man and they still accepted that risk. They ended up dead, so it pretty much proves that it was a bad idea.

You have no reason to assume that. This is a major plot detail, and no information is offered or even hinted at, so you don't just assume he was told this off screen some how. We are given no incentive to believe that.

He asks for knowledge on how to make something. That doesn't equate to written instructions on how to make it your controlled puppet, too.

You can clone a tiger in a lab. That doesn't mean it will be your tame pet.

If had no reason to assume that, i wouldn't have. If i thought about that is because the movie gave me enough information to assume that anything he knows or believes regarding Doomsday came from the ship, which makes all the sense in the world given that we were shown exactly that: we were shown him asking for the knowledge, and after that creating Doomsday, so it's perfectly fair to assume that anything he knows about the subject is based on what was passed to him.

Now, if you don't accept that, or if you can't come to the same conclusions as i do, that's your problem.

Your worst strawman of all. What Police Officers do can be fatal to them. Ditto with Firemen. Soldiers. Fictional superheros who put on costumes and fight crime etc.

You keep futilely attempting to take the concept of risk and apply to everyone who does anything that can be remotely dangerous. It is not comparable to some idiot who decides to make an alien monster nobody has ever made before, who can't control it, and it can take out all of humanity. That's a risk level of epic proportions that has only one outcome; death for everyone including the moron who made the creature.

Fact: As soon as a villain goes public with his plan he will(hopefully) be a target. A big one. He will be a target for the police and he will be a target for the hero. There's also a chance that whatever devices they use can present malfunctioning problems. The number of risks involved is high. They know it, i assume, and they accept it.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Villains have much greater chances of success because their plans have more controlled variables, and often back ups and fail safes in case something goes wrong. Whereas what did Luthor do to guarantee Doomsday would obey, or what is he going to do if Doomsday turns on him and everyone?

Controlled variables? It takes one simple mistake for all their plans go to *****. They're all stupid, they're all impossible.

Lex doesn't need to do anything. Batman has kryptnonite. How about that for a controlled variable?

That poll proved nothing as it didn't even crack 50 votes. I can get more votes on a poll about Batman 1966 in this forum. When it starts hitting triple digits we'll get a real feel for what way it goes.

Tell me one poll in this forum that at 45 votes one option had 33% and at 200 or 300 votes had 2%, 1% or some insignificant number like that.

You were wrong. It's as simple as that. You will never accept that you were wrong because you don't deal well with the fact that you don't know everything, and sometimes you discuss stuff with people that actually know more than you. If the poll hits 1000 votes, which it won't, you will say "well, that's nothing, the forum has 50k members". If the poll hits 50k, you will say "well, what about the other 7 billion people in the world?"

You talk about credible arguments. What credible arguments do you have? Several people by now, in this very forum, have told you that they give a damn about critics. You created a poll, over 33% of the people who gave their opinion also said they care. I showed you a study that establishes a relation between good critical reception and good BO results. And yet, you're convinced that no, it has no impact. But you don't really have any evidence, do you? You're just simply chasing something that will backup your flawed argument that the movie didn't make money simply because people don't like it.

This is the whole entire problem right there. Why would he create such an indestructible uncontrollable creature, unless he was an idiot. Which he is. Because we have no reason to believe he made knowing he could control it. How did he think he could control it? What safeguards did he have ready in case Doomsday went off book and turned on him? We didn't see anything to suggest he accounted for any of this.

Again, i have a reason to believe he was under the impression he could control it. But then again, we can't all arrive to the same conclusions.

Giving information about a vital plot point is not spoon feeding. Its called good story telling. Your math seems to off from many other people's, as one of the main criticisms against BvS was Luthor's nonsensical plan.

It's called spoon feeding, which is what modern audiences need in order to understand a movie.

 

[Whatupman]

In the deleted scene we can hear Lex saying something like "Doomsday only obeys me", in the theatrical version they changed the lines to "Blood of my Blood", but we can get an idea what Lex wants to say, Lex thinks he can control Doomsday.

After accessing the ship's AI and the knowledge base, Why would Lex create Doomsday if he cannot be controlled ?

The very fact that Lex created one means he knew that it could be controlled, though AI warns him that such actions were forbidden by Council of Krypton, which Lex willingly ignores, in order to attain means to destroy Superman.

So, In my opinion, Lex is not blindly creating something that cannot be controlled, but rather he decides to create Doomsday knowing the risks involved, it's a gamble he is willing to take.

Considering that Lex couldn't control Doomsday, means that's exactly what he did though. And the answer to why he would do that ... is because he's the victim of bad writing. Lex couldn't have known that Doomsday could be controlled, because in the end he couldn't be controlled.

 

[BlZARRO]

Considering that Lex couldn't control Doomsday, means that's exactly what he did though. And the answer to why he would do that ... is because he's the victim of bad writing. Lex couldn't have known that Doomsday could be controlled, because in the end he couldn't be controlled.

Right. Because everything always goes according to the plan. A being, or a machine, can´t be unpredictable and do something you weren't expecting.

 

[Whatupman]

Right. Because everything always goes according to the plan. A being, or a machine, can be unpredictable and do something you weren't expecting.

I hope you realize that it's not possible for Lex to know that Doomsday can be controlled, when he in fact couldn't be controlled. The fact that Doomsday couldn't be controlled, means that it was impossible for Lex to know that he could be controlled. You understand that, right? It's not an opinion.

 

[The Joker]

You and the humanity...Lex doesn't give a crap about humanity. You can drop that one right now so we don't need to go on and on and on with this forever.

Super powers? What super powers does Doctor Oct have? Is he bullet proof? If he is, i don't remember that being established in the movie.

I don't care which risk is bigger. I have no way to calculate that. All i care is that they were all under the risk of getting stopped, by the cops or by Spider-Man and they still accepted that risk. They ended up dead, so it pretty much proves that it was a bad idea.

How do you know Lex doesn't give a crap about humanity? Does he want to rule a dead desolate planet or something? Is he seeking the extinction of his own race as well as his own life ending, too?

What super powers did Doc Ock have? This is a rhetorical question right? Or where you come from its normal for people to be able to climb up buildings in seconds, or hurl cars around like toys, to rip the brakes off trains, or pick four people up at once and throw them across a room, or pull a huge titanium steel door off its hinges and throw it across the room like it was a beach ball etc?

You don't need to have a calculator to know which is the bigger risk. Every criminal runs some kind of risk of being stopped. Just like any hero runs a risk of getting killed. You keep applying blanket statements for two completely different levels of risk. The very fact you put a daylight bank robbery in the same sentence as the annihilation of humanity shows how farcical this argument is.

If had no reason to assume that, i wouldn't have. If i thought about that is because the movie gave me enough information to assume that anything he knows or believes regarding Doomsday came from the ship, which makes all the sense in the world given that we were shown exactly that: we were shown him asking for the knowledge, and after that creating Doomsday, so it's perfectly fair to assume that anything he knows about the subject is based on what was passed to him.

Now, if you don't accept that, or if you can't come to the same conclusions as i do, that's your problem.

Of course you would. No offense but you're a person who conjures up laptop breakdowns as an analogy to humanity's end. You are pulling all kinds of silly comparisons and assumptions to validate this brain fart plot of Luthor's.

I don't accept it. I have no reason to accept. The movie gives me nothing, and I don't make suppositions about major plot points based on nothing.

If that's what you want to assume, then fine. But you cannot criticize people for not buying into something they are never even given an inkling of.

Fact: As soon as a villain goes public with his plan he will(hopefully) be a target. A big one. He will be a target for the police and he will be a target for the hero. There's also a chance that whatever devices they use can present malfunctioning problems. The number of risks involved is high. They know it, i assume, and they accept it.

No matter how high a risk their plan is going public with it, its not even in the same ballpark as the risk factor of Luthor's plot that could wipe out mankind.

If Joker's bank robbery goes balls up, or Green Goblin fails to kill his business associates in Times Square, they aren't signing their own death warrant as well as humanity's.

Controlled variables? It takes one simple mistake for all their plans go to *****. They're all stupid, they're all impossible.

Lex doesn't need to do anything. Batman has kryptnonite. How about that for a controlled variable?

Yes, controlled variables. A daylight bank robbery, which successfully happen all the time, is far more manageable than unleashing a alien creature than can kill all humanity.

How is Batman having kryptonite a controlled variable? How does this guarantee Doomsday will be subdued?

Tell me one poll in this forum that at 45 votes one option had 33% and at 200 or 300 votes had 2%, 1% or some insignificant number like that.

Right here; http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=511611

You were wrong. It's as simple as that. You will never accept that you were wrong because you don't deal well with the fact that you don't know everything, and sometimes you discuss stuff with people that actually know more than you. If the poll hits 1000 votes, which it won't, you will say "well, that's nothing, the forum has 50k members". If the poll hits 50k, you will say "well, what about the other 7 billion people in the world?"

You think I'm wrong. You think I'll deny it if the poll hits a 1000 votes. I can't tell you how much I value your personal insights of me. Truly.

Oh wait....

Its a mystery to me why you were on probation for over a week. You just reek of class act.

You talk about credible arguments. What credible arguments do you have? Several people by now, in this very forum, have told you that they give a damn about critics. You created a poll, over 33% of the people who gave their opinion also said they care. I showed you a study that establishes a relation between good critical reception and good BO results. And yet, you're convinced that no, it has no impact. But you don't really have any evidence, do you? You're just simply chasing something that will backup your flawed argument that the movie didn't make money simply because people don't like it.

We're not turning this thread into a critics discussion thread. You are going to have to eat crow until the thread garners some serious numbers. Until then any further rantings about it will be ignored.

Again, i have a reason to believe he was under the impression he could control it. But then again, we can't all arrive to the same conclusions.

Right.

It's called spoon feeding, which is what modern audiences need in order to understand a movie.

No its not call spoon feeding. Spoon feeding is spelling out the obvious. Luthor's control over Doomsday was not obvious because he didn't have any.

 

[BlZARRO]

How do you know Lex doesn't give a crap about humanity? Does he want to rule a dead desolate planet or something? Is he seeking the extinction of his own race as well as his own life ending, too?

If everyone's dead, he is dead. What makes you think he would be alive if the humanity all died? The only risk for him is dying or getting arrested. There's not one single scene in the movie that gives us any sort of indication that he cares about what happens to people if he dies. He doesn't even respect life in general. That's why he is a murderer.

What super powers did Doc Ock have? This is a rhetorical question right? Or where you come from its normal for people to be able to climb up buildings in seconds, or hurl cars around like toys, to rip the brakes off trains, or pick four people up at once and throw them across a room, or pull a huge titanium steel door off its hinges and throw it across the room like it was a beach ball etc?

Oh, wait, right. So it's fine to assume he has super powers, because he is obviously able to do stuff that no human would, but it's no ok to make assumptions about Lex. We have to see everything, otherwise it didn't happen. Well, Spider-Man 2 didn't give me any justification to why Oct would be able to get violently thrown against a car by Spider-man without getting any sort of injuries, for example. I guess it's bad storytelling, right?

Of course you would. No offense but you're a person who conjures up laptop breakdowns as an analogy to humanity's end. You are pulling all kinds of silly comparisons and assumptions to validate this brain fart plot of Luthor's.

I don't accept it. I have no reason to accept. The movie gives me nothing, and I don't make suppositions about major plot points based on nothing.

If that's what you want to assume, then fine. But you cannot criticize people for not buying into something they are never even given an inkling of.

I don't give a **** about what you accept. Let's just get that out of the way. The movie spoke to me in a way that made me understand the why's of the plot. If you couldn't reach the same conclusions, that's your ****ing problem.

No matter how high a risk their plan is going public with it, its not even in the same ballpark as the risk factor of Luthor's plot that could wipe out mankind.

If Joker's bank robbery goes balls up, or Green Goblin fails to kill his business associates in Times Square, they aren't signing their own death warrant as well as humanity's.

Wrong.

Luther's plan can kill him. Joker's plan can kill him. What's your point? That Joker's plan is slightly less risky because even if he fails, he can run away or something and not get killed? You can say the same about Lex Luthor. The world has Kryptonite. Batman has it. It's not a death sentence. There's always a chance to fight it.

Yes, controlled variables. A daylight bank robbery, which successfully happen all the time, is far more manageable than unleashing a alien creature than can kill all humanity.

Yeah, sure. We see people with 4 tentacles climbing buildings all the time without getting shot or caught. We see Green Goblins. It's perfectly viable.

How is Batman having kryptonite a controlled variable? How does this guarantee Doomsday will be subdued?

What guarantee does Doctor Oct has of not being shot in the head? Or getting his ass kicked by Spider-Man?

Right here; http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=511611

No. That's nothing. Show me a poll with two options, where one had 33% or something like that and then ended up with 1%.

You think I'm wrong. You think I'll deny it if the poll hits a 1000 votes. I can't tell you how much I value your personal insights of me. Truly.

Oh wait....

But the poll won't it 1000 votes. How many votes were you expecting when you created it? Most polls in this forum have very few votes. If you know this, and if you don't accept a poll with a low number of votes, why creating it in the first place?

No its not call spoon feeding. Spoon feeding is spelling out the obvious. Luthor's control over Doomsday was not obvious because he didn't have any.

Lol, i guess it was obvious to me. Why was i born smart and handsome instead of rich?

 

[The Joker]

If everyone's dead, he is dead. What makes you think he would be alive if the humanity all died? The only risk for him is dying or getting arrested. There's not one single scene in the movie that gives us any sort of indication that he cares about what happens to people if he dies. He doesn't even respect life in general. That's why he is a murderer.

The Joker doesn't respect life in general either, that doesn't mean he wants to wipe out all of humanity. But that's beside point. Luthor is not looking to kill himself. But unleashing Doomsday is the equivalent to doing that.

Ergo he is a moron for signing his own death warrant. His plan is stupid and nonsensical.

Oh, wait, right. So it's fine to assume he has super powers, because he is obviously able to do stuff that no human would, but it's no ok to make assumptions about Lex. We have to see everything, otherwise it didn't happen. Well, Spider-Man 2 didn't give me any justification to why Oct would be able to get violently thrown against a car by Spider-man without getting any sort of injuries, for example. I guess it's bad storytelling, right?

We're not making assumptions about Doc Ock. These are things we see plain as day on the screen in the movie. These are not things we are just assuming he can do without actually seeing it.

That's why we don't make assumptions about Luthor. We don't just suppose major plot elements with bugger all to go on.

I don't give a **** about what you accept. Let's just get that out of the way. The movie spoke to me in a way that made me understand the why's of the plot. If you couldn't reach the same conclusions, that's your ****ing problem.

My dear, BIZARRO, I am not asking you to care. You are justifying your reasoning, I am giving you mine.

The potty mouth you can leave at home.

Wrong.

Luther's plan can kill him. Joker's plan can kill him. What's your point? That Joker's plan is slightly less risky because even if he fails, he can run away or something and not get killed? You can say the same about Lex Luthor. The world has Kryptonite. Batman has it. It's not a death sentence. There's always a chance to fight it.

This strawman again. Being a Cop can kill you. Being a fireman can kill you. Being a soldier can kill you. Heck driving your car can potentially kill you as you could get into an accident, and not even through any fault of your own.

You cannot apply Luthor's monumental risk factor that guarantees his death and all of humanity's to the plans of the Joker and other CBM villains with don't have even in the same ballpark level of risk, and much more controlled variables to their schemes. Luthor had none.

They needed Superman, another Kryptonian, to get that krytponite into Doomsday to finish him off, and he even died doing it. You telling me some normal human being could pull the same stunt?

Yeah, sure. We see people with 4 tentacles climbing buildings all the time without getting shot or caught. We see Green Goblins. It's perfectly viable.

A new strawman. Well its a refreshing change at least. Its not about having 4 tentacles or being a Green Goblin. Its the risk factor and variables that set them apart. A guy who can fly on a glider and toss pumpkin bombs is in a much better position to attempt a multiple public assassination and escape than a regular person. Similarly someone who can throw a steel safe door off its hinges, and grab the loot in seconds, not to mention hurl the security guards across the room in the process, is more likely to succeed because these guys have added advantages thanks to their super abilities.

What's Lex Luthor going to do with Doomsday? Ask him to hold still while he impales him with kryptonite?

What guarantee does Doctor Oct has of not being shot in the head? Or getting his ass kicked by Spider-Man?

No guarantee. But very strong odds he won't. He is strong enough to go toe to toe with Spidey. He can move fast enough to escape the Cops as seen in the movie. He's smart enough that if he is accosted by the Cops he'll grab a hostage for cover to escape.

Does Luthor have any of these reliable contingencies?

No. That's nothing. Show me a poll with two options, where one had 33% or something like that and then ended up with 1%.

How could I prove to you that the poll was once at 33% and shrank to 1%? All I can show you is the final tally and you'd just deny it was ever once at 33% and shrank down to that.

But the poll won't it 1000 votes. How many votes were you expecting when you created it? Most polls in this forum have very few votes. If you know this, and if you don't accept a poll with a low number of votes, why creating it in the first place?

I never said it would. I'm paraphrasing your little childish rant about me not accepting it if the poll did reach 1000 votes.

Lol, i guess it was obvious to me. Why was i born smart and handsome instead of rich?

Poor you. We all have our crosses to bear.

 

[BlZARRO]

The Joker doesn't respect life in general either, that doesn't mean he wants to wipe out all of humanity. But that's beside point. Luthor is not looking to kill himself. But unleashing Doomsday is the equivalent to doing that.

But he didn't die. So how is it equivalent?

Ergo he is a moron for signing his own death warrant. His plan is stupid and nonsensical.

Like all the other villains, who came up with stupid nonsensical plans and died because of it. What's your point? Still waiting to find out.

We're not making assumptions about Doc Ock. These are things we see plain as day on the screen in the movie. These are not things we are just assuming he can do without actually seeing it.

That's why we don't make assumptions about Luthor. We don't just suppose major plot elements with bugger all to go on.

So, you think it's not important for the audience to know why Doctor Oct has super powers, but it's important for them to know why Lex thought he could control Doomsday? Well, he just did. The movie is just showing us he created something with the knowledge he got from the ship. If you can't see that, that's your problem.

This strawman again. Being a Cop can kill you. Being a fireman can kill you. Being a soldier can kill you. Heck driving your car can potentially kill you as you could get into an accident, and not even through any fault of your own.

But being a cop is a proven viable profession. Most cops don't die. How viable it is to try to turn an entire city upside down? Or to walk around in day light robbing banks and climbing buildings?

You cannot apply Luthor's monumental risk factor that guarantees his death and all of humanity's to the plans of the Joker and other CBM villains with don't have even in the same ballpark level of risk, and much more controlled variables to their schemes. Luthor had none.

Guarantees? He is alive.

They needed Superman, another Kryptonian, to get that krytponite into Doomsday to finish him off, and he even died doing it. You telling me some normal human being could pull the same stunt?

Right...because you couldn't write a story where Batman finds a way...t:

A new strawman. Well its a refreshing change at least. Its not about having 4 tentacles or being a Green Goblin. Its the risk factor and variables that set them apart. A guy who can fly on a glider and toss pumpkin bombs is in a much better position to attempt a multiple public assassination and escape than a regular person. Similarly someone who can throw a steel safe door off its hinges, and grab the loot in seconds, not to mention hurl the security guards across the room in the process, is more likely to succeed because these guys have added advantages thanks to their super abilities.

And yet, those two guys died and Lex survived t:


You can twist it all you want. It's all the same thing. You put on a suit and start killing people and doing **** and you will eventually have the military on your back, FBI, CIA, every single police force in the world trying to stop you. That alone makes your chances of getting away with it forever highly unlikely. So he is stupid by even attempting it.

No guarantee. But very strong odds he won't. He is strong enough to go toe to toe with Spidey. He can move fast enough to escape the Cops as seen in the movie. He's smart enough that if he is accosted by the Cops he'll grab a hostage for cover to escape.

Does Luthor have any of these reliable contingencies?

In a badly written story he won't. In a well written story the city would already have all sorts of special task forces looking for him. The best investigators, the best soldiers, the best snipers. He is exposed pretty frequently. I didn't see him moving at the speed of light. I don't see anything about his movement that couldn't be controlled.

How could I prove to you that the poll was once at 33% and shrank to 1%? All I can show you is the final tally and you'd just deny it was ever once at 33% and shrank down to that.

You can show me any poll that was once at a significant number and is now below 5%. I will believe it.

 

[TeeKay]

How is Batman having kryptonite a controlled variable? How does this guarantee Doomsday will be subdued?

It's not a variable considering how useless Batman was during the Doomsday fight. We literally had a shot of him WATCHING the fight between Doomsday, Superman and Wonder Woman. And when Doomsday turned his attention to Batman, what does Bats do? He runs. So I'm not really sure what Bizzaros point about Batman having kryptonite being a variable. It's not as the film presented us. Doomsday is not Superman.

 

[The Joker]

But he didn't die. So how is it equivalent?

He didn't die because Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman took on the creature, and Supes eventually killed it. Luthor's plan was for Doomsday to kill Superman. So what was he going to do after the creature did that and turned on him and everyone else?

Like all the other villains, who came up with stupid nonsensical plans and died because of it. What's your point? Still waiting to find out.

Their plans were not stupid and nonsensical. Luthor's was.

So, you think it's not important for the audience to know why Doctor Oct has super powers, but it's important for them to know why Lex thought he could control Doomsday? Well, he just did. The movie is just showing us he created something with the knowledge he got from the ship. If you can't see that, that's your problem.

The audience know why he had super powers. They saw him have a lab accident that was then established in the hospital scene had fused the arms to his spine and they became a part of him. All the Raimi Spider-Man villains got origin stories for how they got their powers. As if you didn't know this.

We don't find out a single thing about this supposed control you falsely claim Luthor had on Doomsday.

But being a cop is a proven viable profession. Most cops don't die. How viable it is to try to turn an entire city upside down? Or to walk around in day light robbing banks and climbing buildings?

There is a bazillion examples of day time robberies that were never solved, as in thieves never caught. Saying its not viable to attempt a robbery is like saying its not viable to commit murder. Robberies go unsolved, murders go unsolved, criminals all too frequently escape justice and the law. Crime would be non existent if there was no viable success to it.

Guarantees? He is alive.

Because Superman killed Doomsday. His plan was for the opposite to happen.

Right...because you couldn't write a story where Batman finds a way.

Lex Luthor writes his own reality does he?

And yet, those two guys died and Lex survived

Because Superman killed Doomsday. Which was not Lex's intended outcome. Total opposite.

I'd ask why you're repeatedly willfully ignoring that, but its a rhetorical question.

You can twist it all you want. It's all the same thing. You put on a suit and start killing people and doing **** and you will eventually have the military on your back, FBI, CIA, every single police force in the world trying to stop you. That alone makes your chances of getting away with it forever highly unlikely. So he is stupid by even attempting it.

It is not the same thing. Not even remotely. Since we're talking Superman, lets take him as an example. He puts on a suit and goes out and takes on rooms full of men armed with guns. Is his risk factor the same as if normal human Cops did that?

Of course not. Same as how a villain pulling a bank job is not remotely the same risk as unleashing an unstoppable monster on the world. Your strawman holds no credibility.

In a badly written story he won't. In a well written story the city would already have all sorts of special task forces looking for him. The best investigators, the best soldiers, the best snipers. He is exposed pretty frequently. I didn't see him moving at the speed of light. I don't see anything about his movement that couldn't be controlled.

The only times he is exposed in the movie is at the bank, which he fends off by taking a hostage. When he grabs MJ from the cafe, which happens in less than 2 minutes. No time for any Cops to show up. Then finally on a speeding train. Where is the window of opportunity here for the authorities to get him? Is there a standard textbook that says mad scientist villains hide out in old warehouses in New York?

You sit there making these strawmans about investigators in defense of a movie who's main hero is under the public eye of the whole world as a revered hero, yet his secret identity is hidden by a pair of glasses.

You can show me any poll that was once at a significant number and is now below 5%. I will believe it.

So let me get this clear; you want a very specific poll that is below 5%, with a significant number of votes, and has only two options on it?

Remind me why I should go and root through thousands of threads in the Hype archives looking for this for you?

 

[The Joker]

It's not a variable considering how useless Batman was during the Doomsday fight. We literally had a shot of him WATCHING the fight between Doomsday, Superman and Wonder Woman. And when Doomsday turned his attention to Batman, what does Bats do? He runs. So I'm not really sure what Bizzaros point about Batman having kryptonite being a variable. It's not as the film presented us. Doomsday is not Superman.

Oh I know. But the obvious isn't always obvious to some people

 

[TeeKay]

Oh I know. But the obvious isn't always obvious to some people

Id love to find out how Batman was gonna kill Doomsday. Heck even Wonder Woman was barely hanging on in the fight.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

How the heck are we still on this topic after 2-3 days of ad nauseam back-and-forth? Almost feel like this whole discussion was one that was had in the BvS section a while back and it's migrated over here.

 

[All-Father]

But..but, you gotta watch the deleted scenes, read the extended universe comic books, wikis, novelizations, toys, porn to get the whole picture man.

LOL! So true. I don't know what's worse (more stupid); Lex or the excuses of the apologists.

 

[Xrated48]

How the heck are we still on this topic after 2-3 days of ad nauseam back-and-forth? Almost feel like this whole discussion was one that was had in the BvS section a while back and it's migrated over here.

I know I feel the same way every time I come back to this thread there still chatting about the same thing.

 

[TeeKay]

How the heck are we still on this topic after 2-3 days of ad nauseam back-and-forth? Almost feel like this whole discussion was one that was had in the BvS section a while back and it's migrated over here.

Because we didn't get the movie and it flew over our heads.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Because we didn't get the movie and it flew over our heads.

I didn't see the movie and I'm hating it even more just because of this stupid conversation that some people can't stop having.

 

[Erzengel]

So, unless someone has a theatrical release of BvS on them, I just checked the Ultimate Edition and outside of behind the scenes, interviews I don't see any deleted scenes.

 

[The Joker]

Id love to find out how Batman was gonna kill Doomsday. Heck even Wonder Woman was barely hanging on in the fight.

Well apparently fictional characters can write their own reality

How the heck are we still on this topic after 2-3 days of ad nauseam back-and-forth? Almost feel like this whole discussion was one that was had in the BvS section a while back and it's migrated over here.

LOL! So true. I don't know what's worse (more stupid); Lex or the excuses of the apologists.

I know I feel the same way every time I come back to this thread there still chatting about the same thing.

I'm sorry, guys. Would you prefer if we drop it? I don't want to drag down the thread and spoil it for everyone else.

 

[Moridin]

There were a number of other differences as well.

Stark had received a vision of the future in which the world was destroyed by aliens, so there was also (at least in his view) a lot of risk in not doing it.

Spoiler

Stark was also very experienced in the field, having already created at least two advanced AIs in JARVIS and FRIDAY without issue.

Ultron becoming self-aware on its own, when it did, and when Stark and Banner weren't even present was a complete surprise and not something that could have been easily foreseen.

Similarily, Ultron being able to completely overwhelm and destroy JARVIS (the most advanced AI on the planet at that point) in seconds was a complete surprise.

Stark definitely knew their were risks (he and Banner discuss it earlier), but they ultimately felt the risk-reward was in their favor and there was a reasonable assumption that if things went wrong that Ultron could be shut down. It was really the speed and timing at which everything happened that completely caught them off-guard.

That's not the same as the Doomsday situation at all.

Not that Stark didn't screw up. He absolutely should have gotten approval rather than just messing around with alien tech in secret. But I think it is fair to say that Stark ends up paying for his decision. The one part that does kind of bug me is how Stark ends up getting all the blame, even though Banner was involved too. It seems that Banner gets off easy, both in-universe and from the fandom.

Yes, and to further that point, that vision that Scaret Witch gave Stark really played on his biggest fears -from Avengers 1, seeing this huge alien armada waiting to invade Earth, encountering gods and monsters. This is further explored in IM3 with Tony not feeling like he could possibly be adequate to take on such astronomical challenges being just "a man in a can". Then that's all really exploded in AoU, the vision Wanda induces driving Tony headlong into creating Ultron.

A lot of people turn suicidal when they see no way out of their problems. There's a difference between giving up when you no longer have nothing to live for and actually not caring about staying alive while you're trying to accomplish an objective.

Was Green Goblin suicidal too? Was The Joker suicidal too? Was Dr.Crane suicidal too? Was Iron Monger suicidal too? Was Loki suicidal too? Maybe Lex is the only that's not suicidal. I mean, whatever fits the purpose of your argument.

The entire impetus of Zemo's arc was losing his wife and kids in the collateral damage in Sokovia. He was clearly carrying out a final mission, destroying the Winter Soldiers, destroying the Avengers so no one else has to go through what he is, before ending himself so he could rejoin his family.

It's not a variable considering how useless Batman was during the Doomsday fight. We literally had a shot of him WATCHING the fight between Doomsday, Superman and Wonder Woman. And when Doomsday turned his attention to Batman, what does Bats do? He runs.

"Wow, it's like Wondy and Supes are right there in front of me! Like I could reach out and..... oh s***!"