Dark Knight Rises vs Iron Man 3: Which Movie Inspired the Worse Fan Backlash?

[Hammer!]

True, but TDKR has faulty logic that become more and more noticeable upon multiple viewings. SW and TLOTR are movies that actually benefit from multiple viewings because their story's are more cohesive, don't fall apart through questionable logic, and are, frankly, better films. Not to mention films with cynical storytelling traditionally tend to not be as rewatchable for the masse.

 

[Snow Queen]

Problem is, a lot of these perceived flaws are not flaws to other people. Now, you have to be specific as to what you are referring to. For example, the complaint about there not being enough Batman is not a problem to many because it's the character, not the costume that's important to them. Some like the character arc Bruce has, others don't. Some can't understand how Bruce got into Gotham, others don't need it and can easily see ways he got in (ex. what other purpose were the special ops guys getting in to show besides that there are ways to get in while allowing us to have a cool Batman moment where he just appears out of the shadows). On top of this, for a lot of us, we see a few negatives but it is far outweighed by the positives. Of course there are problems, no film is perfect (though, I'd argue that films like 2001, The Shining and possibly Schindler's List and Fight Club come as close as possible) but it comes down to what you liked in it, how much you liked those aspects and how much those flaws bothered you. For example, I wish Talia (as Miranda) had more screen time. She was more of an idea than a character.

But what I liked in the film far outweighs any negatives. I won't type out everything I liked in the film since that'd take forever so I'll just drop my analysis here:

http://forums.arkhamverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=19163

And I don't bring up in it but I also really enjoyed the score, acting, cinematography, action, effects, production design and pretty much all of the technical side on top of the story and themes.

 

[S. Grundy]

How did Gordon know Bane's name, when it was never spoken?

 

[Anno_Domini]

You need to work on your reading. I said a couple years down the road not when people are still on a high from seeing a more recent film, coupled with the fact that many people's perception of the film has deteriorated upon multiple views due to the film's many logic faults and cynical storytelling.

No, you need to have better memory when you yourself said

and TDKR is the only film in the Nolan trilogy that receives hate.

I just proved you wrong on your statement and you can't admit it, that's all.

 

[Snow Queen]

How did Gordon know Bane's name, when it was never spoken?

The CIA knows his name and we're given the impression he's a fairly well known terrorist.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Problem is, a lot of these perceived flaws are not flaws to other people. Now, you have to be specific as to what you are referring to. For example, the complaint about there not being enough Batman is not a problem to many because it's the character, not the costume that's important to them. Some like the character arc Bruce has, others don't. Some can't understand how Bruce got into Gotham, others don't need it and can easily see ways he got in (ex. what other purpose were the special ops guys getting in to show besides that there are ways to get in while allowing us to have a cool Batman moment where he just appears out of the shadows). On top of this, for a lot of us, we see a few negatives but it is far outweighed by the positives. Of course there are problems, no film is perfect (though, I'd argue that films like 2001, The Shining and possibly Schindler's List and Fight Club come as close as possible) but it comes down to what you liked in it, how much you liked those aspects and how much those flaws bothered you. For example, I wish Talia (as Miranda) had more screen time. She was more of an idea than a character.

But what I liked in the film far outweighs any negatives. I won't type out everything I liked in the film since that'd take forever so I'll just drop my analysis here:

http://forums.arkhamverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=19163

And I don't bring up in it but I also really enjoyed the score, acting, cinematography, action, effects, production design and pretty much all of the technical side on top of the story and themes.

Oh how I will never understand some "flaws" people call out on TDKR when they're mostly just silly.

How did Gordon know Bane's name, when it was never spoken?

It's mentioned in the script that Gordon overhears one of the thugs mentioning his name, but when the CIA knows of a masked man named Bane, then it's best to leave that out on the film because Bane already has made a name for himself for someone like Gordon to know who he is.

 

[S. Grundy]

Just because the CIA knows about a mercenary named "Bane", doesn't mean that he's Osama bin Laden, and everyone knows about him. Most people don't even know who's on the FBI top ten most wanted. It's just sloppy, in this case editing, since that was in the script.

 

[Anno_Domini]

The audience is already aware of the name from that scene and adding to the idea that the CIA is known of this terrorist, it's the best kind of editing when you take out that snippet since the audience is aware of Bane already and in that sense, Gordon would be aware of as well of this terrorist underneath Gotham.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I tend to be defensive when someone does not comprehend on what I am trying to say. Like I said, I'll try to spell things out for ya even moreso

In time, it all will be healed.

And they are friends, from the very beginning. Talia and Bane are friends. But why call him "friend-zoned pet"? A man has to be called a "friend-zoned pet" just because he's not sleeping around with the woman or what?

And he only loves her as a friend. There's NOTHING to back up any claim that he loved Talia in a different way, and only damn foolish for anyone to think such.

It all comes from the "I love you" without the "I love you" back.

Talia mentions he loves her. Bane cries. She doesn't mention she loves him back but call him "friend" twice. And no, if they were only friends she wouldn't have mention the "love" he had for her. It was pretty obvious they were friends, that's why Talia had to specify it was "love" she was talking about.

 

[Snow Queen]

Just because the CIA knows about a mercenary named "Bane", doesn't mean that he's Osama bin Laden, and everyone knows about him. Most people don't even know who's on the FBI top ten most wanted. It's just sloppy, in this case editing, since that was in the script.

See, this is what I was talking about. You say this is a flaw, I say it's not. It's not hard for me to see Gordon knowing about a terrorist (who I assume is fairly well known, you do not, there lies the difference).

 

[Anno_Domini]

In time, it all will be healed.

Not quite too sure on that...I can never let go of slow people misunderstanding me.

It all comes from the "I love you" without the "I love you" back.

Talia mentions he loves her. Bane cries. She doesn't mention she loves him back but call him "friend" twice. And no, if they were only friends she wouldn't have mention the "love" he had for her. It was pretty obvious they were friends, that's why Talia had to specify it was "love" she was talking about.

That has got to be the most pathetic attempt at a reason I've ever heard. Bane doesn't even say the words "I love you", thus no need for Talia to say it back and she's the one who said Bane loved her. If he did, then they feel the same way as they were both sad during that entire scene right up to Talia's emotional goodbye.

You're trying too hard, Racer. I LOVE my friends(hell, I even tell my closest male friends I love them). People LOVE their friends.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

That has got to be the most pathetic attempt at a reason I've ever heard.

Mh, another of your raw nerves touched.

Bane doesn't even say the words "I love you", thus no need for Talia to say it back and she's the one who said Bane loved her.

Bane doesn't say it, but when Talia states this fact, he immediately cries. And it's not just a man crying, it's a terrorist who kills men with his bare hands. This is not just a friendship like the one a regular guy would have.

If he did, then they feel the same way as they were both sad during that entire scene right up to Talia's emotional goodbye.

Yes, Bane is just this emotional nostalgic guy. You have such a great eye for character. Might want the help of an ophthalmologist though.

Well, he doesn't have to say it, she already stated he loves her. And that's why he cries, because he does love her but her dad never accepted him. Do you think he is crying because dad Ra's never allowed him to go their house and play?

You're trying too hard, Racer. I LOVE my friends(hell, I even tell my closest male friends I love them). People LOVE their friends.

This is not you and your friendies. Bane's not a character who has a steady job and loves his friends like anyone else.

Bane loves Talia. Talia doesn't love him back, but will use him though and will appreciate him being there for her. That's the ultimate friend zone.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Mh, another of your raw nerves touched.

No, just laughing at your misinformation on the subject, that's all.

Bane doesn't say it, but when Talia states this fact, he immediately cries. And it's not just a man crying, it's a terrorist who kills men with his bare hands. This is not just a friendship like the one a regular guy would have.

Yes, Bane is just this emotional nostalgic guy. You have such a great eye for character. Might want the help of an ophthalmologist though.

Well, he doesn't have to say it, she already stated he loves her. And that's why he cries, because he does love her but her dad never accepted him. Do you think he is crying because dad Ra's never allowed him to go their house and play?

This is not you and your friendies. Bane's not a character who has a steady job and loves his friends like anyone else.

Bane loves Talia. Talia doesn't love him back, but will use him though and will appreciate him being there for her. That's the ultimate friend zone.

Again, you are greatly mistaken bud.

Bane and Talia have the same love for each other and nothing says otherwise except for a guess or an assumption from the viewer. If that's your take, then fine, but you're very wrong with that assumption as well. Saying that Talia loved Bane as a friend and Bane loves her more is just as bad and as wrong as someone saying Bane is a pedo in TDKR.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

No, just laughing at your misinformation on the subject, that's all.

What information are you talking about? It's all in the film.

Again, you are greatly mistaken bud.

Bane and Talia have the same love for each other and nothing says otherwise except for a guess or an assumption from the viewer.

Talia says that Bane's love was viewed by Ra's as "a crime." Do you think it was just friendship what Ra's considered such an offense?

If that's your take, then fine, but you're very wrong with that assumption as well.

Saying that Talia loved Bane as a friend and Bane loves her more is just as bad and as wrong as someone saying Bane is a pedo in TDKR.

Talia called him "friend" twice, from which you can deduce she considers him as a friend. Talia says he 'loves' her, but it's only with him that she uses the word "love." When it's about her, she uses "friend."

Just to underline everything even more, Nolan had him dropping a tear when she mentions this "love."

 

[Anno_Domini]

What information are you talking about? It's all in the film.



Talia says that Bane's love was viewed by Ra's as "a crime." Do you think it was just friendship what Ra's considered such an offense?



Talia called him "friend" twice, from which you can deduce she considers him as a friend. Talia says he 'loves' her, but it's only with him that she uses the word "love." When it's about her, she uses "friend."

Just to underline everything even more, Nolan had him dropping a tear when she mentions this "love."

Talia didn't say Ra's viewed it as a crime, only Talia said "his only crime was...". His crime that he cared for Talia and Ra's couldn't accept it because he only saw the hell where his wife dies whenever he saw Bane, a prisoner in the Pit.

But my father could not accept Bane. He saw only a monster who could never be tamed. Whose very existence was a reminder of the hell he’d left his wife to die in. He excommunicated Bane from the League of Shadows. His only crime was that he loved me.

Doesn't mean Bane was anything more than just a guardian and a protector that loved Talia like a sister, or just a friend in a platonic relationship. You're taking it out as a way you want to perceive it, when no such thing is accurate.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Talia didn't say Ra's viewed it as a crime, only Talia said "his only crime was...". His crime that he cared for Talia and Ra's couldn't accept it because he only saw the hell where his wife dies whenever he saw Bane, a prisoner in the Pit.

So, what you're saying is that Bane's love was viewed by Ra's as "a crime." And if you don't, who viewed this love as a crime?

Doesn't mean Bane was anything more than just a guardian and a protector that loved Talia like a sister, or just a friend in a platonic relationship. You're taking it out as a way you want to perceive it, when no such thing is accurate.

Of course it's platonic. When you're friend-zoned it is all platonic.

But the movie, the tear, the words, all is very clear.

 

[Anno_Domini]

So, what you're saying is that Bane's love was viewed by Ra's as "a crime." And if you don't, who viewed this love as a crime?

Talia says Bane's only crime is that he loved her as the reason he was banished, but it's also stated that that's not true. Ra's banished him because of what he sees whenever he looked at Bane, the monster that represents that prison.

Of course it's platonic. When you're friend-zoned it is all platonic.

But the movie, the tear, the words, all is very clear.

See, the bold is all I wanted to hear. The movie, the tear, the words...all very clear that they cared for each other immensely, but not as some as yourself would suggest.

 

[S. Grundy]

The audience is already aware of the name from that scene and adding to the idea that the CIA is known of this terrorist, it's the best kind of editing when you take out that snippet since the audience is aware of Bane already and in that sense, Gordon would be aware of as well of this terrorist underneath Gotham.

Yes, the audience is aware of who Bane is, but there's nothing to suggest that Jim Gordon knows who he is.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yes, the audience is aware of who Bane is, but there's nothing to suggest that Jim Gordon knows who he is.

But it simply should be suggested he finds out. If you don't like it, then cool, but the film suggests that he should know, period. Obviously there was that overlaying idea hence why that part was actually cut out in the theatrical cut that Gordon is aware of who Bane is.

 

[S. Grundy]

No it was just plain sloppy.

 

[Anno_Domini]

To you I'm sure, but I'm explaining it in the way others see it as.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Iron Man 3 clearly suffered more of a backlash.

 

[milost]

I'd say Iron Man 3 had the worst fan backlash.


TDKR and Iron Man 3 both seem to be the red headed step child that people like to beat on of their respective series, even though they're both generally well received by general audiences and critics, and made a lot, A LOT of money.


With TDKR and Iron Man 3 as far as "the fans" go, I think the filmmakers got a little avant garde for their tastes. They took the characters to places where maybe some fans didn't want to see. There was too much "weird stuff" where they took the material to a world that wasn't really expected and had these heavy handed, modern day, post 9-11 motifs of terrorism. TDKR's was a disaster movie that was apocalyptic and self-important whereas Iron Man 3's was a spy movie that was satirical and whimsical.

Then there's the whole deal with people's views on the fidelity to the comic material. "Bruce Wayne would never do that!", "Tony Stark did what!", "MANDARIN, NOOOOOOOOO!". Tie that with the fact that it has little Batman and Iron Man screen time (both really delve more into Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark as characters, the men behind the mask and armor so to speak) and the fact that these two came after Batman Begins, Iron Man, The Dark Knight and Avengers and you have the ingredients for disappointment and backlash.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Imo, the bigger difference is that Shane Black was new to Iron Man and came in and did THAT to an IM film. At least Nolan has said he always had ideas for a third film, but just never promised to make a third film until 2009-2010.

 

[milost]

Shane Black actually helped out with Iron Man and Iron Man 2 though. A lot of his ideas and writing are in their. He certainly knew how to write Tony Stark.

His track record as far as filmmaking and writing ain't so bad either. I had no idea he was in Predator, holding a DC comic no less! Great thing about movies is that you learn something new all the time.