Comics Fan Backlash... Clone Saga vs. OMD?

[Spec Spider-Man]

OMD, the Peter & MJ marriage is such an important thing. Sure, the Clone Saga lasted too long and that is a bad thing, but OMD is dissapointing.

I agree.

 

[Sloth7d]

OMD is changing one aspect of the character, while the Clone Saga usurped Peter of his actual identity. How is that not worse? How is being married to MJ more important than actually being Spider-Man?

Because it was all a lie, and he was still the original.

 

[Apprentice]

I've always wanted to see what Dan Slott could do on a regular Spider title. It's a shame that I haven't decided if I'll be picking it up or not yet, due to the fact that as a Spider fan I feel that Marvel has been slapping me in the face left and right recently.

I know. Avengers Initiative really makes me want to buy his run on ASM, but I just can't get over what they're doing.

Agreed, I'm unsure of whether I'll pick it up.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I'd take a 100 clone sagas over one OMD... Mephisto?! C'mon! When the clone saga was supposed to be fixed, someone suggested Mephisto... That was shot down because it was too cosmic... but, Peter Potter and the Deathy Marriage can be retconned by the devil, cause Peter's now a magical being... Yay lazy writing!!!

I've NEVER heard Mephisto mentioned anywhere in regards to the Clone Saga.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

In 1973, the powers that be at Marvel felt like they couldn't do anything more with Gwen's character, so they had her killed, probably to the shock and outrage to many Spider-Man fans.

No, not probably. I remember reading in one of his biographies that Stan couldnt even attend conventions after the Death OF Gwen storyline without being hammered by fans who held him responsible for the characters death.

Hard to believe that The Man himself was once as reviled by fan backlash as Joey Q.

 

[Apprentice]

No, not probably. I remember reading in one of his biographies that Stan couldnt even attend conventions after the Death OF Gwen storyline without being hammered by fans who held him responsible for the characters death.

Hard to believe that The Man himself was once as reviled by fan backlash as Joey Q.

Yeah...but at least that storyline made sense. Fans back then just couldn't appreciate a classic

 

[Blader5489]

Because it was all a lie, and he was still the original.

Yeah, it was retconned a few years later. And odds are, OMD will be retconned at some point down the line.

But that's really not fair, is it? You're comparing a plot point from 15 years ago that ended up being retconned to a current story that isn't even finished yet.

Yeah...but at least that storyline made sense. Fans back then just couldn't appreciate a classic

Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Sloth7d]

Yeah, it was retconned a few years later. And odds are, OMD will be retconned at some point down the line.

But that's really not fair, is it? You're comparing a plot point from 15 years ago that ended up being retconned to a current story that isn't even finished yet.

True. There is a chance that this might not happen, but the thing is it will, which Marvel has made very obvious. I'm very certain Marvel will go through with this. I'm also very certain that sales won't drop, the same way sales didn't drop due to Sins Past or the Other. Since sales will not be effected, we can look at this as a permanent change to the Spider-man mythos, which ticks me off to no end that I'm only left with Spider-girl and USM comics.
As for the Peter being a clone, maybe that was just me who knew Marvel didn't have the guts to make that stick.

 

[Sloth7d]

I've NEVER heard Mephisto mentioned anywhere in regards to the Clone Saga.

I don't know about Mesphito, but I remember in an interveiw DeFaulco mentioned Traveller was one idea to fix everything. But they shot it down due to being too magical/cosmic for Spider-man comics. And we all know how they retcon'd Traveller, himself, later.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I don't know about Mesphito, but I remember in an interveiw DeFaulco mentioned Traveller was one idea to fix everything. But they shot it down due to being too magical/cosmic for Spider-man comics. And we all know how they retcon'd Traveller, himself, later.

Now THAT i remember.

 

[SpideyInATree]

This is not a very fair fight. Heh.

First of all One More Day isn't even really finished yet. After the third part we all kind of have an idea where this is GOING but we don't have a clear outcome yet.

But the stories are just really different and come at different times and under different editorial processes.

The Clone Saga was a rather unique idea that, not only worked in continuity, but added excitement and intrigue to the Spider-Man books. I remember those books when they were hitting the shelves and every week was like a mad rush to the comic shop to see how things turned out with Peter's clone.

One More Day was a lot like, "Oh, man...I really hope this doesn't suck like all the other major crossovers have for the past two to three years...".

The Clone Saga, in my opinion, suffered BECAUSE of the fan outcry. If Marvel held it's stance and didn't buckle to the fans the Clone Saga wouldn't have been so crazy and drawn out. They changed a lot of crap in that story because fans got mad at Ben Reilly being the true Peter Parker.

One More Day has spawned out of the ideas of either Joe Quesada or JMS. Or it was a joint effort. But either way One More Day is just a vehicle to set things to a certain way so that creators and future creative teams can have some new and interesting things to do with Peter Parker.

But Clone Saga vs. One More Day? It's not even a challenge. Clone Saga is/was/and will always be, in my opinion, some of the best era of Spider-Man stories. Yeah, there were some HORRID stories in there too but there were a ton of great storylines and characters to come out of that.

One More Day will, most likely, be forgotten about in a year or two. Trust me.

 

[spiderfan85]

OMD is alot worst then the clone saga. At least for the clone saga, they tried to fix it by creating Spider-Girl and Amazing Spider-Girl. What are they going to do about OMD?

 

[Blader5489]

Clone Saga is/was/and will always be, in my opinion, some of the best era of Spider-Man stories. Yeah, there were some HORRID stories in there too but there were a ton of great storylines and characters to come out of that.

Could you point me to them?

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I've NEVER heard Mephisto mentioned anywhere in regards to the Clone Saga.

I think I read about Mephisto somewhere... now I'm not quite sure about it... maybe it was Traveller, but still ithe thing was that there was a suggestion of a magical/cosmic soultion...

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

See? That's just plain fan ignorance right there.

The marriage split is NOT an idea that Joey Q just sprouted out from nowhere.

Many writers have balked from writing Spider-Man over the last 20 years because... a) they either felt like they didn't want to write about a married Spidey or b) they had the creative inability to write about a married Spider-Man.

Either way, despite the fans loving the idea of a married Peter & MJ, it's been a big hinderance to Marvel's writers for 20 years, so in one form or the other, it was decided that it had to go. That doesn't mean I like the idea, but if it's done properly, I can live with it and move on.

In 1973, the powers that be at Marvel felt like they couldn't do anything more with Gwen's character, so they had her killed, probably to the shock and outrage to many Spider-Man fans. Yet people talk about that story nowadays like it's the greatest thing that ever happened to the character. And I'm not going to pretend that OMD will have the same impact to Spidey readers in 30 years from now, but as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, if it's done properly, I can live with it and move on.

I read the stories of the Amazing Spider-Man every month... not The Amazing Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson-Parker. Again.... if it's done properly, I can live with it and move on.

Anyhoo.... that's just MY two cents...

Actually, you are right about alot of the things you said. I know that writer's have been trying to end the marriage for years, but what I really meant to say was that the marriage shouldn't end if fan's don't have a big problem with it. Sure, Sopa Opera type Spidey storie's were amazing and they are my favorite, but the Peter & MJ is loved by many fan's. Gwen's death came out of no where though. there was no hint's about it, but it really is one of the biggest things that has ever occured in the Spidey comic's. I just feel that JQ is making a big mistake, but he doesn't realise that. I wish he would though.

By the way, sorry if you misunderstood my last post about the marriage coming out of no where, I was in a bit of hurry when I posted it.

 

[USMC]

See? That's just plain fan ignorance right there.

The marriage split is NOT an idea that Joey Q just sprouted out from nowhere.

Many writers have balked from writing Spider-Man over the last 20 years because... a) they either felt like they didn't want to write about a married Spidey or b) they had the creative inability to write about a married Spider-Man.

Either way, despite the fans loving the idea of a married Peter & MJ, it's been a big hinderance to Marvel's writers for 20 years, so in one form or the other, it was decided that it had to go. That doesn't mean I like the idea, but if it's done properly, I can live with it and move on.

In 1973, the powers that be at Marvel felt like they couldn't do anything more with Gwen's character, so they had her killed, probably to the shock and outrage to many Spider-Man fans. Yet people talk about that story nowadays like it's the greatest thing that ever happened to the character. And I'm not going to pretend that OMD will have the same impact to Spidey readers in 30 years from now, but as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, if it's done properly, I can live with it and move on.

I read the stories of the Amazing Spider-Man every month... not The Amazing Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson-Parker. Again.... if it's done properly, I can live with it and move on.

Anyhoo.... that's just MY two cents...

So do you think the Mephisto (how random) wanting their marriage in exchange for an old lady's life (a very old lady) is the story "being done properly".

What, exactly, would it take to "not be done properly" in your eyes?

And I do agree with you... writers *****ing about the marraige just means they are not very good writers. There have been MANY writers who have managed to tell compelling, honest, worthwhile, and historic stories involving Mary Jane and Peter, AND stories with JUST Peter... so, it can be done.

The marriage is not the problem. It's the writers, plain and simple.

 

[USMC]

No, we don't. Unless you have read ASM #545, then you don't truly know how it ends.

Um, ok. If you say so. We don't know how it truly ends... :wink wink:

I don't know what you consider to be the "first year of the Clone Saga", but for me, the "Power and Responsibility" arc started that whole clone era. And looking at it from that starting point, there were only two (maybe three) good stories. Nothing "awesome" and nothing spanning a whole year.

Opinions vary.

 

[Blader5489]

Um, ok. If you say so. We don't know how it truly ends... :wink wink:

What's so hard to understand? If you haven't the issue, then you don't know how it ends. You can speculate all you want, but until you actually read part 4, that's all it will be--speculation.

 

[farmernudie]

It been clear by reading the wording of future advertisements that Pete and MJ are no longer together in BND.

This also, has been JQ's goal for the past years, if you've read his interviews about the subject.

(unless this OMD is a very LONG running gag, and they're holding out to the very last moment...but let's be realistic...the marriage is done for the time being....)

Otherwise, Mephisto is an even bigger LOON after appearing and making his diabolical marriage presentation for nothing.

 

[Themanofbat]

So do you think the Mephisto (how random) wanting their marriage in exchange for an old lady's life (a very old lady) is the story "being done properly".

What, exactly, would it take to "not be done properly" in your eyes?

Unfortunately, it's not being done properly.

But if it's going to happen, and it appears to be so, then I'm glad that it's a part of continuity which means that once upon a time, all the past stories of the last 20 years did happen, just nobody will remember them.

I know it sounds stupid, but had they gone for a rewrite history, or that events never happened at all, I would be even more frustrated than I am feeling now.

And being the ever-loving optimist that I am, despite the garbage that I'm reading now, I'm looking forward to Slott & Co. to start writing some fun Spidey style stories ala yesteryear, and I hope that we can start fogetting the last 5 years of Spidey history.

And I do agree with you... writers *****ing about the marraige just means they are not very good writers. There have been MANY writers who have managed to tell compelling, honest, worthwhile, and historic stories involving Mary Jane and Peter, AND stories with JUST Peter... so, it can be done.

The marriage is not the problem. It's the writers, plain and simple.

And that's something we can both agree with...

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I've NEVER heard Mephisto mentioned anywhere in regards to the Clone Saga.

http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/22.html
Found it... it's somewhere near the bottom of the page...

Also it was referenced as a possible (unused) ending in the one-shot 101 ways to end the clone saga...

 

[DACrowe]

Hm, some interesting excerpts from several writers and editors about the proposed suggestions that Joey Q and JMS and everyone in between in assitance to this debacle should have HEARD and UNDERSTOOD:

First and foremost, the writers were a bit, shall we say, taken aback by the "Time Loop" concept. Dan Jurgens was perhaps the most vocal about his misgivings. "Time travel stories always give me a headache!" he wrote in response. "They're often hard to explain, seem like an easy way out, and are usually incredibly cumbersome."

Dan also argued against using Judas Traveller and Scrier as part of the solution to the clone saga. "If they're so powerful that they can create time loops, why the heck do they care about Spider-Man? (They) create a scenario in which Ben is yanked around by guys way more powerful than him."

Dan wanted to keep things simple. His solution: "Ben is the clone. Peter is real. That's the goal." Was it a flip-flop? Sure. A cop-out? Absolutely. But it was also the quickest, cleanest, simplest way to settle the matter. Dan's idea was that a classic Spider-Man villain would be behind the whole thing, preferably Doctor Octopus, who at that time was still believed to be dead (murdered by Kaine), but was actually operating as the mysterious Master Programmer. "Doc Ock was the first true super-villain (Spider-Man) ever fought, so it's kind of appropriate (that he be behind it all). Doc also knows now that Peter is Spider-Man, so he has the knowledge to pull this off… This is a story that could ultimately mean more to Spider-Man. It brings it down to a more real level than Scrier and Traveller and it seems somehow appropriate that one of his classic villains should be behind all this."

Tom DeFalco's response to the "Time Loop" was equally unenthusiastic. "Mephisto is not a Spider-Man villain," he wrote in a memo dated October 2, 1995. Further, he noted that "we ultimately learn the fate of the 'clone' Peter Parker and Ben Reilly from the ol' Prince of Lies himself." In other words, how can we trust anything that Mephisto says? Another thing DeFalco noted: "Neither Ben nor Peter plays a significant role in the story's resolution. Traveller becomes our major protagonist, and he is the one who must rescue the star of our series."

Needless to say, Kurt (Busiek) was not in favor of the Mephisto angle, nor did he like Traveller and Scrier. "They don't fit in SPIDER-MAN any more than Loki would fit into THE PUNISHER… This should be a Spider-Man epic, a story in which Spider-Man truly belongs…

 

[Blader5489]

^To be fair, while Mephisto is out of place in the Spider-Man mythos, his role in OMD isn't really the same as his potential one in the Clone Saga.

 

[DACrowe]

Super duper retcon, time warping reality changing editorial board-quick fix?

Seems about the same to me. The details may be a little different.

Poor Peter Parker, though.

 

[USMC]

Unfortunately, it's not being done properly.

But if it's going to happen, and it appears to be so, then I'm glad that it's a part of continuity which means that once upon a time, all the past stories of the last 20 years did happen, just nobody will remember them.

I know it sounds stupid, but had they gone for a rewrite history, or that events never happened at all, I would be even more frustrated than I am feeling now.

And being the ever-loving optimist that I am, despite the garbage that I'm reading now, I'm looking forward to Slott & Co. to start writing some fun Spidey style stories ala yesteryear, and I hope that we can start forgetting the last 5 years of Spidey history.