"Feel the Bern": The BERNIE SANDERS Thread - Part 2

[Matt]

Let's breakdown the flaw in the BernOut logic bit by bit.

same reason Hillary Clinton said the same thing in 2008. if you want your supporters to keep listening you have to give them hope that the fight isn't over.

Ah, the classic BernOut tactic; misrepresent Hillary Clinton. They have done it throughout this election, painting Clinton as if she were Right of Dubaya. The idea that the actions of Sanders are no different than the actions of Clinton in 2008 is is a lie that BernOuts regularly fall back on.

Clinton stayed in the race because she still had a chance of winning in 2008. It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say "Well she stayed in until California." She did it because the race was still competitive. In fact, had Clinton wanted to really push it and make a floor challenge to Obama, she would've had a helluva compelling argument to make at the Convention because of one simple fact: Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in the 2008 primary. This is one of the most interesting nuances of 2008 that is overlooked. Clinton won the popular vote by about 175,000 votes. Considering neither candidate reached the magic number prior to superdelegates she would've had an amazing argument had she chose to go to the super delegates at the convention and say "do you really want to overturn the will of the people?"

She didn't. She senses momentum was against her. She sensed that the party was locked in behind Obama and that there would be no swaying super delegates. As such, when it was apparent she lost she ended her campaign and endorsed Obama. For a woman who the BernOuts consistently paint as power hungry and willing to do anything to advance herself, she acted incredibly altruistically in 2008. She withdraw her candidacy despite having the popular vote for the good of the party and the good of the country.

Let's compare that to Sanders's situation:

• He trails Clinton by 3 million votes/13 % of the electorate

• Clinton has won a majority of the states

• Clinton has won a majority of the delegates

So where as Clinton had a compelling reason to stay in, Sanders has none. He is mathematically eliminated with no real argument to make to super delegates. For someone who has spent so much time saying how the process ought to respect the will of the people, his actions certainly do not indicate that he respects the will of the people. The people spoke. He lost. Oh, wait, he stopped respecting the will of the people because of that and thinks that the super delegates ought to overturn his loss (despite his earlier claims that such a thing is undemocratic).

you gotta make this look good he doesn't want to just give up. his supporters need to believe that he tried and fought to the end. otherwise they will feel like they were betrayed and like they wasted their time volunteering for him.

Yet he is comfortable continuing to ask his supporters for donations for a race that he has lost? So he won't symbolically "waste their time" (despite the fact that he has lost) but he will gladly literally waste their money?

Beyond that, I thought he told his supporters that this is bigger than him, that this is about a "movement" and a "revolution." He is hurting that cause by staying in. He has alienated just about every one of his Senate colleagues by stretching this out. He could've withdrawn a month ago in exchange for a key leadership role in the Senate, something that would've furthered the movement exponentially. Banking, economic policy, any of those committees or subcommittees (none of which he is currently on) he could've had. These are positions that could've effectuated real change. Instead he continues to fight a meaningless fight that makes things easier for Donald Trump, someone who explicitly stands against this "movement." And for what? An additional 15 minutes in the spotlight.

What better way to waste your supporters time than by railroading the "movement" they gathered behind?

Bernie Sanders has already come out and stated that the Democratic party has treated him very well

Then the next day he promises to fight to destroy their establishment, to sue the Party, etc.

and that Hillary Clinton's VP pick will be crucial to winning over his supporters.

Which implicitly suggests he wants to be on the ticket (which really does seem to be his angle at this point). So he wants to go from being a US Senator to a meaningless, powerless position? The only thing that comes with being Vice-President is self-aggrandization. Once again, if this is about a "movement," then his place is in the Senate...not being a ceremonial hood ornament for a woman he has called a criminal who is in the pocket of Wall Street. But this isn't about a movement. Its about his ego.

he gets to help write the party platform this year

Ah, my favorite BernOut excuse for Sanders going scorched Earth and helping Donald Trump. "He is staying in to affect the platform!" Do you know what the platform is? I am guessing most BernOuts don't. The platform is a ceremonial document that is posted on the DNC's website for a few months and taken down before anyone can notice how much the candidate strayed from it. This isn't the 1920s. The platform is not used as a way to bargain and decide upon the ticket. The 2008 platform promised to close Gitmo, eradicate the deficit, insure every American, and end terrorism through combined military action with the UN among other things that never came to pass in Obama's first term (and most of which did not come to pass in his second).

The platform is a ceremonial piece of paper. The real platform is whatever the candidate decides for it to be.

So please explain to me how writing some stuff on a ceremonial document is worth paving the way to the White House for Donald Trump. How does that progress the Sanders "movement"? Why, call me crazy, it seems like the only reason someone would care so much about a ceremonial document is if they were looking for a reason to keep attention on themselves for a bit longer. Hmm...

 

[auditor]

That's pretty long and I can't respond to it all now, but I disagree with your assertion that Hillary won the popular vote in 2008. Hillary for a while was claiming that but it was becausexwhexwas inck using votes from a disqualified state. The other candidates took their names off the ballet.

Eventually Obama won the popular vote by a margin so large that even if you included that large state where Obama and Edwards were not on the ballet, Obama still had won the popular vote.

Even after Obama had clinched the nomination by reaching the magic number, Hillary vowed to fight on.

 

[auditor]

Anybody remember what state it was and why it was disqualified?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Florida and Michigan were disqualified because they went against the party rules and moved their primary dates to January. The candidates pledged not to campaign there and Clinton ended up winning those states. Obama's name wasn't even on the Michigan ballot.

 

[Matt]

That's pretty long and I can't respond to it all now, but I disagree with your assertion that Hillary won the popular vote in 2008. Hillary for a while was claiming that but it was becausexwhexwas inck using votes from a disqualified state. The other candidates took their names off the ballet.

Eventually Obama won the popular vote by a margin so large that even if you included that large state where Obama and Edwards were not on the ballet, Obama still had won the popular vote.

The only state that fits that description is Michigan. Considering that it had an uncommitted option which gain 40% of the vote, it really cant' be argued that Clinton's win is invalid or that Obama voters supported her.

Even after Obama had clinched the nomination by reaching the magic number, Hillary vowed to fight on.

Obama didn't hit the magic number in pledged delegates so I'm not sure what you're taking about.

 

[Slushy]

But doesn't it bother you that in both 2004 and 2008 he was talking about running as a Democrat, donating money to Democratic candidates, and saying all kinds of progressive and populist things? It seems to me that Trump was willing to switch sides and change his ideology based on political convenience at the drop of a dime. He was waiting for the right opportunity to grab power. This is not about "making America great." This is about Donald Trump grabbing power by any means necessary. Say what you will about Clinton, but she has never changed her base ideology or tried to switch parties based on convenience.

It bothers me that he used to donate to the Clintons. I'm well aware of that fact since they used to be chummy, but that was then...and this is now.

 

[redhawk23]

Let's breakdown the flaw in the BernOut logic bit by bit.



Ah, the classic BernOut tactic; misrepresent Hillary Clinton. They have done it throughout this election, painting Clinton as if she were Right of Dubaya. The idea that the actions of Sanders are no different than the actions of Clinton in 2008 is is a lie that BernOuts regularly fall back on.

Clinton stayed in the race because she still had a chance of winning in 2008. It is easy to paint with a broad brush and say "Well she stayed in until California." She did it because the race was still competitive. In fact, had Clinton wanted to really push it and make a floor challenge to Obama, she would've had a helluva compelling argument to make at the Convention because of one simple fact: Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in the 2008 primary. This is one of the most interesting nuances of 2008 that is overlooked. Clinton won the popular vote by about 175,000 votes. Considering neither candidate reached the magic number prior to superdelegates she would've had an amazing argument had she chose to go to the super delegates at the convention and say "do you really want to overturn the will of the people?"

She didn't. She senses momentum was against her. She sensed that the party was locked in behind Obama and that there would be no swaying super delegates. As such, when it was apparent she lost she ended her campaign and endorsed Obama. For a woman who the BernOuts consistently paint as power hungry and willing to do anything to advance herself, she acted incredibly altruistically in 2008. She withdraw her candidacy despite having the popular vote for the good of the party and the good of the country.

Let's compare that to Sanders's situation:

• He trails Clinton by 3 million votes/13 % of the electorate

• Clinton has won a majority of the states

• Clinton has won a majority of the delegates

So where as Clinton had a compelling reason to stay in, Sanders has none. He is mathematically eliminated with no real argument to make to super delegates. For someone who has spent so much time saying how the process ought to respect the will of the people, his actions certainly do not indicate that he respects the will of the people. The people spoke. He lost. Oh, wait, he stopped respecting the will of the people because of that and thinks that the super delegates ought to overturn his loss (despite his earlier claims that such a thing is undemocratic).



Yet he is comfortable continuing to ask his supporters for donations for a race that he has lost? So he won't symbolically "waste their time" (despite the fact that he has lost) but he will gladly literally waste their money?

Beyond that, I thought he told his supporters that this is bigger than him, that this is about a "movement" and a "revolution." He is hurting that cause by staying in. He has alienated just about every one of his Senate colleagues by stretching this out. He could've withdrawn a month ago in exchange for a key leadership role in the Senate, something that would've furthered the movement exponentially. Banking, economic policy, any of those committees or subcommittees (none of which he is currently on) he could've had. These are positions that could've effectuated real change. Instead he continues to fight a meaningless fight that makes things easier for Donald Trump, someone who explicitly stands against this "movement." And for what? An additional 15 minutes in the spotlight.

What better way to waste your supporters time than by railroading the "movement" they gathered behind?



Then the next day he promises to fight to destroy their establishment, to sue the Party, etc.



Which implicitly suggests he wants to be on the ticket (which really does seem to be his angle at this point). So he wants to go from being a US Senator to a meaningless, powerless position? The only thing that comes with being Vice-President is self-aggrandization. Once again, if this is about a "movement," then his place is in the Senate...not being a ceremonial hood ornament for a woman he has called a criminal who is in the pocket of Wall Street. But this isn't about a movement. Its about his ego.



Ah, my favorite BernOut excuse for Sanders going scorched Earth and helping Donald Trump. "He is staying in to affect the platform!" Do you know what the platform is? I am guessing most BernOuts don't. The platform is a ceremonial document that is posted on the DNC's website for a few months and taken down before anyone can notice how much the candidate strayed from it. This isn't the 1920s. The platform is not used as a way to bargain and decide upon the ticket. The 2008 platform promised to close Gitmo, eradicate the deficit, insure every American, and end terrorism through combined military action with the UN among other things that never came to pass in Obama's first term (and most of which did not come to pass in his second).

The platform is a ceremonial piece of paper. The real platform is whatever the candidate decides for it to be.

So please explain to me how writing some stuff on a ceremonial document is worth paving the way to the White House for Donald Trump. How does that progress the Sanders "movement"? Why, call me crazy, it seems like the only reason someone would care so much about a ceremonial document is if they were looking for a reason to keep attention on themselves for a bit longer. Hmm...

Not due to lack of trying. Its not as if the ideals stated in that platform were abandoned. Trying to get those passed have been some of the defining features of Obama's presidency.

 

[Matt]

Not due to lack of trying. Its not as if the ideals stated in that platform were abandoned. Trying to get those passed have been some of the defining features of Obama's presidency.

Maybe. But that is basically because Obama drafted it (well, his team). Even so, its still fairly ceremonial. Let's assume Hillary Clinton had a floor fight at the convention over the platform and got a bunch of stuff on there that Obama opposed. Do you think his presidency would have been fighting for those issues or the ones he saw fit?

 

[Slushy]

Protesters Attempt to Rush Stage as Bernie Sanders Rally Takes Place in Oakland, California.

Shocking.

 

[DeadPresident]

It bothers me that he used to donate to the Clintons. I'm well aware of that fact since they used to be chummy, but that was then...and this is now.

It should bother any sensible American that donating to a political campaign is even a thing. It's called donating because they don't want to call it what it really is.

This is donating the same way I donate money to a 7/11 every time I get a Pepsi.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

It bothers me that he used to donate to the Clintons. I'm well aware of that fact since they used to be chummy, but that was then...and this is now.

This is hysterical. You know what it's called when you support something and then later on don't support it? Flip-flopping.

 

[DDS]

I don't think people should hate politicians just because they flip flop. They should hate them if they flip flop into supporting ********.

For example, if you support LGBT rights, Hillary flipping on those issues is unfortunate but should make you less angry than people that STILL IN 2016 are lagging behind on what's become cultural norms.

Conversely, I wouldn't hate Trump for flip flopping on abortion, if it weren't onto the side where he says things like "The woman should be punished."

But some people value "conviction" and the ability to stubbornly hold onto "values" over the ability to change for the greater good and to get tangible results, even if it's "just for votes," which is irrelevant to me if the end results on things like increasing LGBT rights are met. I see these politicians as a means to an end instead of moral guides, and not much more. With a few important exceptions.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I don't think people should hate politicians just because they flip flop. They should hate them if they flip flop into supporting ********.

For example, if you support LGBT rights, Hillary flipping on those issues is unfortunate but should make you less angry than people that STILL IN 2016 are lagging behind on what's become cultural norms.

Conversely, I wouldn't hate Trump for flip flopping on abortion, if it weren't onto the side where he says things like "The woman should be punished."

But some people value "conviction" and the ability to stubbornly hold onto "values" over the ability to change for the greater good and to get tangible results, even if it's "just for votes," which is irrelevant to me if the end results on things like increasing LGBT rights are met. I see these politicians as a means to an end instead of moral guides, and not much more. With a few important exceptions.

I was making reference to his idea that Trump is somehow a man of convictions when he is not. Anyone that can completely 180 on almost all their viewpoints within a few years is just pandering to try and win not because they believe in anything. Sanders has been much more consistent than most politicians but he still plays the game.

 

[craigdbfan]

They all kind of have to. I don't blame any politician when it comes to that.

It's when they finally get the position and what they do with said power to influence policy in a way that will hopefully help most Americans that we should judge them for.

Not to mention that the media is relentless in setting up bear traps or no-win responses. Dirty.

 

[Slushy]

This is hysterical. You know what it's called when you support something and then later on don't support it? Flip-flopping.

Its a little complicated when your friend becomes your enemy.

 

[DeadPresident]

They all kind of have to. I don't blame any politician when it comes to that.

It's when they finally get the position and what they do with said power to influence policy in a way that will hopefully help most Americans that we should judge them for.

Not to mention that the media is relentless in setting up bear traps or no-win responses. Dirty.

This is what highlights modern politics for the farce it is. The current discussion has boiled down to "It's okay if politicians lie and coerce their way into power, I'm sure they'll behave differently once they're there!" - Leaving something like that to chance seems exceptionally risky.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

That's the problem with Trump that we have with no absolutely no other candidate. Both Sanders and Hilary have long records of service, what bills they have and did not support, as well as a general message they've pretty much stuck to.

Trump on the other hand will spout of any nonsense he thinks will make the crowd go crazy or get headlines and then turn around and say something directly opposed to what he said in the next interview or rally. All we have to base what he would do on is a series of failed business ventures, countless statements that show he has no idea on even basic requirements for the global economy or running a country, and all of the people who keep speaking up about how he screwed them over and is a dishonest jackass. Yet some here act like he is the second coming of Christ sent to save us all with his complete lack of knowledge and his apathetic attitude towards trying to fix that.

If you think Trump is a viable candidate for president I pity you, I really do. You're the kind of person that goes to the car lot to buy a mini-van and gets sold the deluxe convertible that's actually a POS and pays twice what it's worth.

 

[Schlosser85]

You're the kind of person that goes to the car lot to buy a mini-van and gets sold the deluxe convertible that's actually a POS and pays twice what it's worth.

That's actually a very apt analogy, because that's exactly what Trump is. He's a stereotypical sleazy car salesman, a snake oil peddler, a con man.

Trump University is a scam and is being exposed as such.

He's all smoke and mirrors. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

That people can't see through him at this point is really head-scratching.

 

[Victarion]

They also forgot that there's three branches of government.

 

[Kelly]

That's actually a very apt analogy, because that's exactly what Trump is. He's a stereotypical sleazy car salesman, a snake oil peddler, a con man.

Trump University is a scam and is being exposed as such.

He's all smoke and mirrors. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

That people can't see through him at this point is really head-scratching.

I think they so want someone that....

• Will be tough on illegal immigration and stand up to Mexico and their inability to run their border.
• Tough trade and the fact that we are getting ***** slapped by countries like Japan and China, and he has said he will slap back.

Those 2 things resonate the loudest I think....and they truly believe that he can do something about both.


As far as most everything else, they are willing to look past the fact that he has flip flopped on almost everything else.



Those 2 things piss off people who are Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Libertarians, etc....and they are willing to look past everything else because they so desperately want those things taken care of...and be damned about every thing else.

 

[Slushy]

Those 2 things piss off people who are Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Libertarians, etc....and they are willing to look past everything else because they so desperately want those things taken care of...and be damned about every thing else.

Exactly. While Donald Trump has supported causes in the past that the GOP opposes (gun control, higher taxes, and single-payer health care), he has become the voice of the enraged given that Hillary is most likely to continue Obama's policies that have been set in motion.

 

[souvlaki]

Sources in the Sanders camp say he was on a phone call with Obama today. Can only imagine what it was about but it would make sense that Obama is trying to talk him out of the suicide mission he's on.l and tell him hes endorsing Clinton (which sources say he plans to do in the next week). Pretty sad when the POTUS has to jump into this.

 

[Marvolo]

I posted this in the primary thread but it belongs here too.


Bernie Sanders Campaign Is Split Over Whether to Fight on Past Tuesday

split is emerging inside the Bernie Sanders campaign over whether the senator should stand down after Tuesday’s election contests and unite behind Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton, or take the fight all the way to the July party convention and try to pry the nomination from her.

One camp might be dubbed the Sandersistas, the loyalists who helped guide Mr. Sanders’s political ascent in Vermont and the U.S. Congress and are loath to give up a fight that has far surpassed expectations. Another has ties not only to Mr. Sanders but to the broader interests of a Democratic Party pining to beat back the challenge from Republican Donald Trump and make gains in congressional elections.

Mr. Sanders in recent weeks has made clear he aims to take his candidacy past the elections on Tuesday, when California, New Jersey and four other states vote. But the debate within the campaign indicates that Mr. Sanders’s next move isn’t settled.

For now, Democratic officials, fund-raisers and operatives are getting impatient, calling on Mr. Sanders to quit the race and begin the work of unifying the party for the showdown with the Republican presumptive nominee.

Orin Kramer, a New York hedge-fund manager who has raised campaign funds for both President Barack Obama and Mrs. Clinton, said with respect to Mr. Sanders’s future plans: “I would hope people would understand what a Trump presidency would mean and act accordingly—and ‘accordingly’ means quickly.”

A strong showing in New Jersey on Tuesday, before California results even come in, could help Mrs. Clinton reach the 2,383 delegates needed to clinch the nomination. Her total includes hundreds of superdelegates—party leaders and elected officials who can back either candidate. Mr. Sanders is hoping that defeating Mrs. Clinton in the most populous state later Tuesday might give superdelegates reason to drop her and get behind his candidacy. Those superdelegates have given no indication they will shift allegiances.

Even so, Mr. Sanders isn’t backing off. In an interview that aired Sunday on CNN, he stepped up an attack on Mrs. Clinton involving the Clinton Foundation. Echoing a critique made by Republicans, Mr. Sanders said he has “a problem” with the foundation accepting money from foreign sources during her service as secretary of state.

In a news conference Saturday in California, Mr. Sanders indicated he would battle for superdelegates all the way to the convention.

“The Democratic National Convention will be a contested convention,” he said.

Mrs. Clinton, who won Puerto Rico’s Democratic primary on Sunday, seems to be running out of patience with Mr. Sanders. Having shifted her focus to Mr. Trump, she told CNN that after Tuesday, “I’m going to do everything I can to reach out to try to unify the Democratic Party, and I expect Sen. Sanders to do the same.”


http://www.wsj.com/articles/bernie-...r-whether-to-fight-on-past-tuesday-1465171997

Short of a victory by a shocking margin in california, I expect his backers and some of his staff to abandon him after tomorrow.

 

[souvlaki]

I posted this in the primary thread but it belongs here too.


Bernie Sanders Campaign Is Split Over Whether to Fight on Past Tuesday



Short of a victory by a shocking margin in california, I expect his backers and some of his staff to abandon him after tomorrow.

I dont see him winning CA by more than 1-2% at most. But then again this primary season has been weird.

 

[Victarion]

I don't see a reason for him to stop fighting. His base is still enthusiastic enough and he's probably already burned all the bridges that were there for the burning. And as you say, the polls have been weird this time around, so may as well stick it.

Run, Bernie, run.