Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 2

[DACrowe]

Not a great episode but a lot of it is set-up. Needed more of Stannis. You hear about him a lot last season and barely see him in the premiere. I just hope they keep his line that I absolutely love.

I hated the scene where Cersei nearly had Littlefinger killed.

Really? I know she prefers Petyr Baleish to Varys and many of the other "king's men," but she never likes anyone but herself and her children. I thought it sets up a level of distrust between them that clarifies many things that will happen much later in the series.

 

[Solidus]

Well as someone who has not read the books yet, ( I bought them just waiting for grad school to be over this summer) I follow the show fine. I did watch season one three times, and all the info is there and great little nuggets. I thought the first episode was amazing of this season, and I love the hell out of this show. I can't wait to read the books myself. But I say don't change the way they are doing these series, it's going along fine.

 

[Matt]

Well, sure, but we already have a major subplot going on with the Targaryens and Dorthaki. I haven't read the books, but in the show, I'd say that there trying to do too much.

There's already a big, complex civil war with many camps going on. And a greater threat looming with the Targaryen dragons. The third story just seems unnecessary.

And it doesn't help that they've been alluding to the threat beyond the wall, for an entire season without ever showing us anything really threatening or interesting. They delivered with the Targaryen-Dothraki subplot by giving us dragons in the season finale.

I agree about Daenerys. She is so effin boring. And I get that it is important, but I don't need to see her being frustrated that her dragon isn't fixing everything. Just show me that when she actually has something important to do (which seems like never ).

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Really? I know she prefers Petyr Baleish to Varys and many of the other "king's men," but she never likes anyone but herself and her children. I thought it sets up a level of distrust between them that clarifies many things that will happen much later in the series.

I hated it because it was just brute force which is not how the game is played or won. [blackout]And we both know Baelish is better than Cersei at it.[/blackout]

 

[flickchick85]

Well I get bored by Dany and Jon in the books, too, so no change there, lol.

 

[DACrowe]

That's the thing for people who haven't read the books....we don't know.



But it isn't. Hell, this is the reason viewers didn't watch Luck. The entire first season was an epilogue which introduced plenty but offered no payoff.

The first season of GOT was more or less an epilogue. It set the stage for the war and political unrest in the seven kingdoms. At this point we want to see the unrest. The audience doesn't need to spend four episodes learning every little nuance of the politics behind Westeros. We had the entire first season for that. We know who the major players in the war are....so show us the war. For new ones like Stannis, introduce him mid-war. We don't need the build up at this point. And if you MUST give the build up, at least give a payoff (this episode had none).

TV is not literature. Fans of the book don't mind because they know the characters, know the outcome, etc. But they ought not be doing such a literal translation of the book. It doesn't work on TV which is a more dynamic medium. Plus TV viewers do not have the option of just continuing to read the next chapter for their pay off. Each hour should provide its own payoff for the viewer while also leading into the next episode. It is a fine line to walk, but a necessary one in TV writing.

Stannis's introduction is very important because he is not going to fight the war in a traditional way. I expect we'll see the Riverlands "on fire" next episode as they actually show what Arya and Gendry have been up to. The North will move. But most people do need to revisit who these characters are and why they're doing what they are doing in case they haven't studied every aspect of the first season in the last nine months.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I wouldn't mind, except that it hurts pacing. Every time the plot really gets going, it stops and we cut to Johnny and his merry men trudging through snow and reminding us that something scary might be coming.

 

[conan69]

Imagine if at the end of Harry Potter & The Sorcerers Stone you wanted Lupin, Tonks, MadEye Moody, Bellatrix, Umbridge, Sirius Black,Dumbledores brother, Greyback..... all thrown in so you didnthave to waste time being introduced to them later.

How are you supposed to introduce all these characters without allowing the story to unfold and follow the progression of events.One events leads to another, which leads to another, which leads to another...

If the events of the story don't lend itself to that here, fine. But do we really need to be bored with seeing HOW every character goes from A to B when they could just already be at point B without missing a beat?

Because that would be crappy storytelling. Youd have no ideas who the characters are and how they ended up from point A to point B. So the film adaptations of Harry Potter shoud lhave just skipped the events of the first 2 book and just gone to book3.

How does that make any sense from a storytelling point of view?

Again, why tell the story at all?

 

[Boom]

Well I get bored by Dany and Jon in the books, too, so no change there, lol.

How... dare you ?!

 

[Matt]

Stannis's introduction is very important because he is not going to fight the war in a traditional way. I expect we'll see the Riverlands "on fire" next episode as they actually show what Arya and Gendry have been up to. The North will move. But most people do need to revisit who these characters are and why they're doing what they are doing in case they haven't studied every aspect of the first season in the last nine months.

I think that is underestimating the audience.

I get that Stannis needed to be introduced...my problem comes from other aspects. Did we really need to see Robb tell Catelyn to talk to Renly? We could have just assumed he sent her when she goes to Renly and starts negotiating on his behalf.

To go back to our Boardwalk reference, we never saw the Commodore call the coast guard and tell them to shut down Nucky's whiskey importing. We gathered it as it happened/after the fact.

This is the kind of stuff that I am talking about with GOT. People go from point A to point B in a story. Do we need to see every single detail on how they get there?

 

[Matt]

Imagine if at the end of Harry Potter & The Sorcerers Stone you wanted Lupin, Tonks, MadEye Moody, Bellatrix, Umbridge, Sirius Black,Dumbledores brother, Greyback..... all thrown in so you didnthave to waste time being introduced to them later.

How are you supposed to introduce all these characters without allowing the story to unfold and follow the progression of events.One events leads to another, which leads to another, which leads to another...

And imagine if in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone the plot suddenly comes to a halt so Dumbledore and the Professors can have a thirty page meeting about how they plan to set up their traps that protect the Sorcerer's Stone in excruciating detail.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Imagine if at the end of Harry Potter & The Sorcerers Stone you wanted Lupin, Tonks, MadEye Moody, Bellatrix, Umbridge, Sirius Black,Dumbledores brother, Greyback..... all thrown in so you didnthave to waste time being introduced to them later.

How are you supposed to introduce all these characters without allowing the story to unfold and follow the progression of events.One events leads to another, which leads to another, which leads to another...

No, but if we kept cutting to... Ron Weasley's adventures in Iceland, which have no apparent bearing on the overall plot, I would start to finding it annoying after a while.

 

[Marvolo]

I get that...but basically the entire first season until the penultimate episode was reinforcing things of that nature.

Again, I reference Boardwalk Empire. Not a whole hell of a lot happened in the first season. It was establishing characters. It can be forgiven because it is the first season. By the end of season 2's premiere however, Jimmy, Eli and the Commodore have had Nucky arrested and openly declared war on him. It is a HUGE step forward.

If the events of the story don't lend itself to that here, fine. But do we really need to be bored with seeing HOW every character goes from A to B when they could just already be at point B without missing a beat?

Well, if you don't like that stuff it will bore you, but for me and many others we like these quiet intimate moments between these characters. It makes them more human and vulnerable. There are many subtleties in these scenes. It makes the show richer. I like this stuff in every TV show I watch. I love good dialogue. I could watch character's sit for an hour discussing war and strategy. Scene's like Stannis talking to his council, and Tywin talking to Jaime last season, and Robb talking to Jaime and his mother are my favorite things.

With movies I want it to keep pace and move along. With TV shows I prefer this style and pace. They've got 10 hours. There is no need to rush. Tonight's episode is my favorite episode of the series, and one of the best done hours of television I've ever seen. I was enriched in the goings on, and the characters. That's what I ask for in good television.

 

[Boom]

I hate to deviate off this specific discussion, so I'll leave this as a side note for anyone who's up for answering me.

For those who have read the books. It's been a year since I've read GoT and CoK.

Spoiler

People speculate that Jon's real parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna - suggesting that there were clues in the books hinting at this. I can't remember these clues. What are they?

 

[Matt]

I hate to deviate off this specific discussion, so I'll leave this as a side note for anyone who's up for answering me.

For those who have read the books. It's been a year since I've read GoT and CoK.

Spoiler

People speculate that Jon's real parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna - suggesting that there were clues in the books hinting at this. I can't remember these clues. What are they?

I think all of us have said all we can on the other topic and I too am curious as to this question so I shall simply agree to disagree with my fellow posters and look forward to reading their responses to this.

 

[flickchick85]

How... dare you ?!

Well to be fair, I've only read the first two, so...maybe he gets better?

 

[conan69]

I agree the Sam plot is tedious. Danys too ... up to a point where it finally does pick up.

But theres alot of other good stuff going on.

 

[Boom]

I'm reading the third book right now. Jon's story gets better - if I do say so myself.

But then again, I am greatly intrigued by the land beyond the wall, so I may be a bit biased.

 

[conan69]

Boom and Matt,
Because Sean Bean goofed, and confirmed it in a interview

 

[Marvolo]

Question to those who have read the books, when the Maester asked Davos if he was going to tell Stannis the truth what truth was he referring too?

Its been too long since I read COK and I can't recall this?

 

[Boom]

Boom and Matt,
Because Sean Bean goofed, and confirmed it in a interview

Aw man. I was excited to hear what the clues were, as I never picked up on them. That's so anticlimactic .

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I hate to deviate off this specific discussion, so I'll leave this as a side note for anyone who's up for answering me.

For those who have read the books. It's been a year since I've read GoT and CoK.

Spoiler

People speculate that Jon's real parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna - suggesting that there were clues in the books hinting at this. I can't remember these clues. What are they?

Spoiler

A lot of Ned's inner thoughts reference Lyanna's last words to him, "Promise me, Ned."

Ned shudders when he sees the Kingsguard, remembering how he slew them at the Tower of Joy where Lyanna was. The question is, why would they be at the tower guarding Lyanna.

Lyanna was found in a "bed of blood." The fighting was done outside, so the only logical explanation is she gave birth.

Arya is said to look like Lyanna. Arya and Jon look like siblings. Ergo Jon looks like Lyanna.

Even though Robert hates Rhaegar, he's the only person who seems to have a negative opinion of him.

Jon has a dream that something is calling him in the crypts of Winterfell which is where Lyanna is buried.

Bran has a dream that Ned is sad and trying to tell him something about Jon.

Commander Mormont's crow repeatedly says "King" while staring at Jon.

Daenerys has a vision in the House of the Undying of a blue flower (such as the ones Lyanna always liked) on a wall of ice (obviously the Wall). This could represent Jon.

That's mostly stuff from the first 2 books. This site has a lot more but I would caution reading it if you haven't read A Storm of Swords yet.

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

 

[flickchick85]

Kit Harington also kind of goofed in an interview, too, as I recall. He said [blackout]Jon doesn't know who his parents are. Not "mother," but "parents."[/blackout]

 

[Boom]

Spoiler

A lot of Ned's inner thoughts reference Lyanna's last words to him, "Promise me, Ned."

Ned shudders when he sees the Kingsguard, remembering how he slew them at the Tower of Joy where Lyanna was. The question is, why would they be at the tower guarding Lyanna.

Lyanna was found in a "bed of blood." The fighting was done outside, so the only logical explanation is she gave birth.

Arya is said to look like Lyanna. Arya and Jon look like siblings. Ergo Jon looks like Lyanna.

Even though Robert hates Rhaegar, he's the only person who seems to have a negative opinion of him.

Jon has a dream that something is calling him in the crypts of Winterfell which is where Lyanna is buried.

Bran has a dream that Ned is sad and trying to tell him something about Jon.

Commander Mormont's crow repeatedly says "King" while staring at Jon.

Daenerys has a vision in the House of the Undying of a blue flower (such as the ones Lyanna always liked) on a wall of ice (obviously the Wall). This could represent Jon.

That's mostly stuff from the first 2 books. This site has a lot more but I would caution reading it if you haven't read A Storm of Swords yet.

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

Epic post. Thank you.

And thank you too, Conan.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Question to those who have read the books, when the Maester asked Davos if he was going to tell Stannis the truth what truth was he referring too?

Its been too long since I read COK and I can't recall this?

I think it was just that he has no real chance of winning the Iron Throne because he has so few supporters.