Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 2

[OsGom]

O by the way .... PODERICK RULES!!!

 

[Buford The Sly]

I think Ned would do it, even to one of his children, but I'm not sure about Robb because he has a great relationship with Jon and while he's been heralded as the King of the North by his troops, he's still very young to this leadership thing. At any rate, it's not Jon's destiny to join Robb's army to avenge for his father's death, anyway.

Rob would do it too.

Spoiler

As we'll see later with one of his banner men for a "lesser" crime.

 

[Drizzle]

Rob would do it too.

Spoiler

As we'll see later with one of his banner men for a "lesser" crime.

Yes, [BLACKOUT]but Karstark was just one of his bannermen. Jon grew up with him as a brother. I don't think Robb would have it in him to execute Jon as a deserter. Robb does follow his heart, as seen by him marrying Jeyne Westerling instead of accepting the arranged marriage to Walder Frey's daughter, which ultimately dooms him.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[DACrowe]

Well I liked Jon Snow from the start, he was easily my favourite character in season 1 and so far in season 2, Robb was just kind of there at first, but from when Ned was captured he has really grown and developed into an awesome character, really looking forward to seeing him develop more in the rest of season 2.

Both Robb and Jon suffer from being little too noble and honorable in the first two books/seasons. But that changes for the better.

 

[DACrowe]

I'm reading AFFC right now. Martin's writing frustrates me. He writes GREAT characters, but I find some of the dialog tedious. It definitely lends a sense of authenticity to the story but I think it's overkill at times. I think he needs an editor that would reign him in a little. Could probably cut it down to 700+ pages instead of a 1000+.

I also have a problem with him adding more and more character POVs to the story. It's a lot of characters to keep track of even if Martin does write them beautifully. Of course there are always a lot of POVs leaving as well so maybe it balances out...wink wink.

That brings me to my final gripe. [BLACKOUT]
He spends so much time crafting these great characters only to gleefully slaughter them or just burn their lives to the ground. Martin takes perverse pleasure in making us care about these characters before he casually disposes fo them.

I understand it is partly what makes the story so engaging, however, I personally find it hard to enjoy a series where characters who I have become fond of are consistantly killed or kicked in the balls. Kinda makes LOTR look like Enchanted in comparision.
[/BLACKOUT]

[BLACKOUT]I am looking forward to the Brienne arc, the Unsullied and the Battle of Blackwater. Also Arya and Jagen should be awesome.
[/BLACKOUT]

Yeah I think not making it "good guys always win" makes his series fresh and rewarding in how realistic and morally gray it all is. But [blackout]Every single character you like dies or loses almost everything like Ned (dead), Robb (dead), Cat (dead/monstrous undead), Tyrion (ruined), Arya (loss of identity), etc. while Cersei and most of the characters you hate keep coming out on top. I will say the final chapter of one unnamed character in AFFC is going to piss you off.[/blackout]

He really overdoes it.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Yeah I think not making it "good guys always win" makes his series fresh and rewarding in how realistic and morally gray it all is. But [blackout]Every single character you like dies or loses almost everything like Ned (dead), Robb (dead), Cat (dead/monstrous undead), Tyrion (ruined), Arya (loss of identity), etc. while Cersei and most of the characters you hate keep coming out on top. I will say the final chapter of one unnamed character in AFFC is going to piss you off.[/blackout]

He really overdoes it.

I agree with it. After awhile it just becomes exhausting to see so much go wrong. This is the only series I've read where everything goes from bad to worse with no silver lining to those dark clouds. I applaud GRRM for doing something that ballsy and making it different, but goddamn does it bum me out as a reader.

 

[DACrowe]

I think AFFC was a slog of a read, but part of that is the sense of excitement in reading the series kind of faded out when reading ASOS. Because [blackout]after reading about the Red Wedding and Tyrion's conclusion in the story, you just kind of feel downtrodden. It's become clear GRRM is going to refuse the reader anything they want from his series. So, when UnDead Cat turned on her last living friend, Brienne, and tried to hang her for no good reason, I just felt exhausted by it.[/blackout]

I honestly think after the first four seasons, the show is going to have to change the direction of the series a bit, because it becomes such a downer as it goes on. Only [blackout]Littlefinger[/blackout] seems to be thriving in this story. It is crazy.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

Seeing as I have a tendency to root for the villains just as much as the heroes, it's a welcome change of pace for me.

 

[conan69]

OsGom,
Martin definite takes pleasure in taking traditional or classic storytelling and turning them upside down.

GOT wont have a happy ending I dont think and

Spoiler

most of these characters will die.

Hes very hard and yes, cruel to his characters.

Its part of what makes the series engaging though. Its very different from the "usual" way of fantasy storytelling.

No LOTR everyone is happy and together at the end finale here.

There is some justice for the characters, in a way, but

Spoiler

theyre usually completely unaware of it or had no part in its outcome. Example Joffreys poisoning, Tywin, Cerseis ousting. Robb, for example, didnt live to see his enemies fate, so its still cruel.

 

[DACrowe]

Yes, but I feel like turning it on its head is great until [blackout]you reach the point that you can predict what he's going to do. Basically any sort turn of fortune or small victory for one of the Starks or Tyrion? It's going to blow up in their faces and get them killed. It's why what happened to Brienne at the end of AFFC is so predictable as is him cruelly choosing to blind Arya. Now that Jaime has become likable, you know it's going to end with him getting slaughtered. I think a Stark will be in Winterfell by the end of the series, but only one and the Freys will go unpunished save for the ones that are picked off by Cat.[/blackout]

It reaches a point where it's not daring and subversive and becomes just very cynical, in my opinion.

 

[Marvolo]

I agree with what has been said. I appreciate that Martin wants to make it so no one is safe, but I read fantasy as an escape and I like being able to cheer for the characters I like. After a while this series has become Murphy's Law "whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

After a while it has become predictable and it takes away the shock and awe factor.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

There are still 2 more books people.

 

[smashmode]

Yes, but I feel like turning it on its head is great until [blackout]you reach the point that you can predict what he's going to do. Basically any sort turn of fortune or small victory for one of the Starks or Tyrion? It's going to blow up in their faces and get them killed. It's why what happened to Brienne at the end of AFFC is so predictable as is him cruelly choosing to blind Arya. Now that Jaime has become likable, you know it's going to end with him getting slaughtered. I think a Stark will be in Winterfell by the end of the series, but only one and the Freys will go unpunished save for the ones that are picked off by Cat.[/blackout]

It reaches a point where it's not daring and subversive and becomes just very cynical, in my opinion.

The only reason why GRRM does that is he is a..

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Both Robb and Jon suffer from being little too noble and honorable in the first two books/seasons. But that changes for the better.

I dunno, I liked Jon from the start and Robb just seemed to really grow once Ned was captured, even in the the first episode of season 2 he was great, but they develop even further I cant wait for that.

 

[El Bastardo]

Yeah I think not making it "good guys always win" makes his series fresh and rewarding in how realistic and morally gray it all is. But [blackout]Every single character you like dies or loses almost everything like Ned (dead), Robb (dead), Cat (dead/monstrous undead), Tyrion (ruined), Arya (loss of identity), etc. while Cersei and most of the characters you hate keep coming out on top. I will say the final chapter of one unnamed character in AFFC is going to piss you off.[/blackout]

He really overdoes it.

I think AFFC was a slog of a read, but part of that is the sense of excitement in reading the series kind of faded out when reading ASOS. Because [blackout]after reading about the Red Wedding and Tyrion's conclusion in the story, you just kind of feel downtrodden. It's become clear GRRM is going to refuse the reader anything they want from his series. So, when UnDead Cat turned on her last living friend, Brienne, and tried to hang her for no good reason, I just felt exhausted by it.[/blackout]

I honestly think after the first four seasons, the show is going to have to change the direction of the series a bit, because it becomes such a downer as it goes on. Only [blackout]Littlefinger[/blackout] seems to be thriving in this story. It is crazy.

Yes, but I feel like turning it on its head is great until [blackout]you reach the point that you can predict what he's going to do. Basically any sort turn of fortune or small victory for one of the Starks or Tyrion? It's going to blow up in their faces and get them killed. It's why what happened to Brienne at the end of AFFC is so predictable as is him cruelly choosing to blind Arya. Now that Jaime has become likable, you know it's going to end with him getting slaughtered. I think a Stark will be in Winterfell by the end of the series, but only one and the Freys will go unpunished save for the ones that are picked off by Cat.[/blackout]

It reaches a point where it's not daring and subversive and becomes just very cynical, in my opinion.

You should probably read A Dance with Dragons, since it's out.

Regardless, an overall reply to the quoted posts:
(Don't click on this box unless you've read through A Feast for Crows.

Spoiler

Maybe you're just speaking for yourself - though your initial blackout was second-person, not first- or even third-person, so I'm not sure - but no, not every character I like is getting died or ****ed over. I didn't like Ned. I hated Cat. Meanwhile, you're jumping to conclusions for Arya and Tyrion without having read their further adventures in ADwD. I like Jon - lots of people like Jon. He hasn't lost everything. He's been making pretty good for himself by the end of ASoS, actually, minus some little loss. I love Jaime - I know, he's one of those characters I'm supposed to hate, who always comes out on top, or something, aside from his wound there. On that note, Tywin didn't come out on top. And neither has Cersei, from where you've read. Not to mention countless others. What about Sam? I assume he's a likable character in most cases - he isn't dead or **** on.

There is nothing to suggest GRRM is out to get the readers, as you suggest. That also presupposes that all readers want the same thing out of a reading experience, which is a pretty silly thing to presuppose. Rather, his characters act as his characters should and would act within the realm and story he's created, without his giving a damn for the consequences or whether it obeys typical "rules." It isn't turning something on its head - he's giving us a story made from maturity. No, not maturity of adult situations and language, though there is, of course, that. Rather, maturity of story and its growth.

Littlefinger's the guy who seems to be thriving most? Think about that. Littlefinger thrives best in a chaotic situation where nobody's paying attention to him? Hmm... No, that couldn't possibly be character development.

The Freys are snakes, and like any snakey person or family, they huddle toward the winning side. Will everything come out hunky dory for them? You have to assume that depends on who wields power when it's all said and done. Haha, maybe the Freys will be the ones with power.

I wouldn't call Arya being made blind cruel, considering it's part of what she wanted. Furthermore, you haven't read A Dance with Dragons.

As for Jaime, I have an idea for what his final fate is going to involve, and it relates back to one of Bran's dream prophecies from the first book. But I don't see why I should assume, oh, he's going to die, lulz.

If anything, given how you write about this, you're the one coming off as cynical, not GRRM's writing.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Spoiler

As for Jaime, I have an idea for what his final fate is going to involve, and it relates back to one of Bran's dream prophecies from the first book. But I don't see why I should assume, oh, he's going to die, lulz.

Spoiler

What's Bran's dream that relates to Jaime?

 

[Crockett]

Spoiler

What's Bran's dream that relates to Jaime?

Spoiler

I'm thinking El Bastardo is referring to the one with the shadows. If I'm not mistaken it mentions 3 shadows, one that's armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. It's very likely that's Jaime. The other shadows was mentioned a face of a hound, so probably the Hound and the last one was tall as a giant, so Gregor perhaps? He's one character that's immediately comes mind, and no other characters seems to match up to him.

 

[Kane52630]

@ your avvy Crockett.

 

[El Bastardo]

Spoiler

I'm thinking El Bastardo is referring to the one with the shadows. If I'm not mistaken it mentions 3 shadows, one that's armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. It's very likely that's Jaime. The other shadows was mentioned a face of a hound, so probably the Hound and the last one was tall as a giant, so Gregor perhaps? He's one character that's immediately comes mind, and no other characters seems to match up to him.

Do not read without having read A Dance with Dragons:

Spoiler

Yes, that one. The hypothesis I like to toss around is Jaime and Sandor vs. Qyburnstein's Monster, since we know Qyburn has doctored Gregor up and made him fit to be Cersei's champion as Ser Robert Strong.

Nothing about Bran's dream suggests this, but I like to think of Jaime being the one to condemn Cersei, and Sandor to finally get past his brother's shadow.

Though Bran's dream does suggest the poison and ichor inside Gregor, so after his "death." The passage reads, roughly paraphrased, the visor on Gregor's helmet opens and black poisony stuff spills out. So while being foreshadowing at the time, the dream could potentially show a time after Gregor's "death."

I'm rambling.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I wouldn't really say that GRRM is all cruelty, if anything the entire story of Daenarys is about bad things happening and coming out stronger.

 

[DACrowe]

You should probably read A Dance with Dragons, since it's out.

Regardless, an overall reply to the quoted posts:
(Don't click on this box unless you've read through A Feast for Crows.

Spoiler

Maybe you're just speaking for yourself - though your initial blackout was second-person, not first- or even third-person, so I'm not sure - but no, not every character I like is getting died or ****ed over. I didn't like Ned. I hated Cat. Meanwhile, you're jumping to conclusions for Arya and Tyrion without having read their further adventures in ADwD. I like Jon - lots of people like Jon. He hasn't lost everything. He's been making pretty good for himself by the end of ASoS, actually, minus some little loss. I love Jaime - I know, he's one of those characters I'm supposed to hate, who always comes out on top, or something, aside from his wound there. On that note, Tywin didn't come out on top. And neither has Cersei, from where you've read. Not to mention countless others. What about Sam? I assume he's a likable character in most cases - he isn't dead or **** on.

There is nothing to suggest GRRM is out to get the readers, as you suggest. That also presupposes that all readers want the same thing out of a reading experience, which is a pretty silly thing to presuppose. Rather, his characters act as his characters should and would act within the realm and story he's created, without his giving a damn for the consequences or whether it obeys typical "rules." It isn't turning something on its head - he's giving us a story made from maturity. No, not maturity of adult situations and language, though there is, of course, that. Rather, maturity of story and its growth.

Littlefinger's the guy who seems to be thriving most? Think about that. Littlefinger thrives best in a chaotic situation where nobody's paying attention to him? Hmm... No, that couldn't possibly be character development.

The Freys are snakes, and like any snakey person or family, they huddle toward the winning side. Will everything come out hunky dory for them? You have to assume that depends on who wields power when it's all said and done. Haha, maybe the Freys will be the ones with power.

I wouldn't call Arya being made blind cruel, considering it's part of what she wanted. Furthermore, you haven't read A Dance with Dragons.

As for Jaime, I have an idea for what his final fate is going to involve, and it relates back to one of Bran's dream prophecies from the first book. But I don't see why I should assume, oh, he's going to die, lulz.

If anything, given how you write about this, you're the one coming off as cynical, not GRRM's writing.

I'll read ADWD soon enough. But after reading the first four in a row (well there was a mini-break while reading AFFC), I think it's safe to say that I can come to some conclusions about his storytelling style after something like 3,000 pages.

As to your actual points:

Spoiler

I was speaking generally. You may personally dislike Ned Stark, but by traditional storytelling tropes he is the "hero" of the first book. He kills him off to subvert expectations. It works brilliantly and lights a match that sparks the fire for the rest of the series.

He does enough to build Robb Stark up as the "young hero" trope in fantasy fiction going back to Arthurian legend and on through Frodo, Star Wars, and whatever else. He then subverts that by making Cat the protagonist of the Robb-centric chapters (the mother of the boy hero, instead of the wish-fulfilling young man). In ASOS he finally builds them up as someone to root for who chooses love over calculating duty (usually a noble and worthwhile notion in fiction) and then gets slaughtered for it. He takes such glee in building them up and tearing them down that, while powerfully subversive, begins to show a pattern.

He knows Tyrion is a fan favorite (and probably his favorite character to write about given how much he uses him)? Well Tyrion had too much success and power early on in ACOK. So it ends with him getting his nose cut off. Gripping yes, but depressing to the reader. In the next book he is stripped of most of his power and is ostracized again. GRRM finally gives the reader the death most want by killing the evil boy king (I don't seem to find many defending or liking Joffrey). But in the same stroke he frames Tyrion, who the reader knows to be innocent, and strips him of all the power and progress he made in proving himself over the course of ACOK and ASOS. He is forced to flee the realm as a traitor and fugitive while the despised Cersei lives on in power. To take it even further he introduces a character who is rougishly cool, handsome and has all the markings of a great anti-hero with the Red Viper. Despite being a "snake" (it's in his nickname ), he is fighting for a noble cause which is to avenge the murder of his sister and her infant children. He fights in Tyrion (most audience's favorite) honor and to top it all off, he fights one of the most hated characters in the series: Gregor Clegane whose previous appearances tend to revolve around raping and decapitating anything in his path. He builds it up so the reader thinks justice will be delivered on the monster (even giving Red Viper an Inigo Montoya/Princess Bride-styled speech!) and at the last moment, he kills the Red Viper and leaves Tyrion condemned to death. He escapes...but has lost his family name and everything he built.

Is there a pattern here? For characters that readers generally like or root for based purely on using popular tropes from other familiar stories, GRRM consistently chooses to subvert expectations by always punishing them. There's also Arya spending 1200-some pages trying to be reunited with her family and then to be right outside the walls when they are slaughtered. There is Sansa finally about to be free of Joffrey and Cersei with the Tyrells before at the last minute being forced to marry Tyrion. There is Theon about to give up Winterfell and take the black at the last minute before Ramsey Bolton shows up and kills all the supporting Winterfell characters who are generally written as "good" and burning down the Stark ancestral home. Brienne who is trying to do the one honorable thing, is reunited with her friend Catelyn Stark and is strung up and hanged for not wanting to murder Jaime (which she probably is going to attempt to do to save Podrick's life and will make a vow to Stoneheart).

The one rule in the ASOIAF series? Anything bad that can happen to the "good guys" will and worse. If things are ever going their way, expect it to eventually end bad in the next book. That's why I don't expect happy endings for Sam, Jaime (who is now a character most readers seem to root for) or Jon Snow. Maybe Dany will do all right, because GRRM seems to really like her.

On a side note, I'm not criticizing the series so much as critiquing it and noticing a pattern/formula. I personally like the Littlefinger character, but he is the only one doing well. The most hatable characters like Cersei or Tywin? They go on for entire novels longer with success than the more likable characters and only seem to fall by turning on themselves and eating each other. Which while entertaining, doesn't satisfy the general sense of "justice" many readers look for. Great subversion, but after 3,000 pages it can get old.

Sorry for the length of that.

 

[El Bastardo]

I'll read ADWD soon enough. But after reading the first four in a row (well there was a mini-break while reading AFFC), I think it's safe to say that I can come to some conclusions about his storytelling style after something like 3,000 pages.

As to your actual points:

Spoiler

I was speaking generally. You may personally dislike Ned Stark, but by traditional storytelling tropes he is the "hero" of the first book. He kills him off to subvert expectations. It works brilliantly and lights a match that sparks the fire for the rest of the series.

He does enough to build Robb Stark up as the "young hero" trope in fantasy fiction going back to Arthurian legend and on through Frodo, Star Wars, and whatever else. He then subverts that by making Cat the protagonist of the Robb-centric chapters (the mother of the boy hero, instead of the wish-fulfilling young man). In ASOS he finally builds them up as someone to root for who chooses love over calculating duty (usually a noble and worthwhile notion in fiction) and then gets slaughtered for it. He takes such glee in building them up and tearing them down that, while powerfully subversive, begins to show a pattern.

He knows Tyrion is a fan favorite (and probably his favorite character to write about given how much he uses him)? Well Tyrion had too much success and power early on in ACOK. So it ends with him getting his nose cut off. Gripping yes, but depressing to the reader. In the next book he is stripped of most of his power and is ostracized again. GRRM finally gives the reader the death most want by killing the evil boy king (I don't seem to find many defending or liking Joffrey). But in the same stroke he frames Tyrion, who the reader knows to be innocent, and strips him of all the power and progress he made in proving himself over the course of ACOK and ASOS. He is forced to flee the realm as a traitor and fugitive while the despised Cersei lives on in power. To take it even further he introduces a character who is rougishly cool, handsome and has all the markings of a great anti-hero with the Red Viper. Despite being a "snake" (it's in his nickname ), he is fighting for a noble cause which is to avenge the murder of his sister and her infant children. He fights in Tyrion (most audience's favorite) honor and to top it all off, he fights one of the most hated characters in the series: Gregor Clegane whose previous appearances tend to revolve around raping and decapitating anything in his path. He builds it up so the reader thinks justice will be delivered on the monster (even giving Red Viper an Inigo Montoya/Princess Bride-styled speech!) and at the last moment, he kills the Red Viper and leaves Tyrion condemned to death. He escapes...but has lost his family name and everything he built.

Is there a pattern here? For characters that readers generally like or root for based purely on using popular tropes from other familiar stories, GRRM consistently chooses to subvert expectations by always punishing them. There's also Arya spending 1200-some pages trying to be reunited with her family and then to be right outside the walls when they are slaughtered. There is Sansa finally about to be free of Joffrey and Cersei with the Tyrells before at the last minute being forced to marry Tyrion. There is Theon about to give up Winterfell and take the black at the last minute before Ramsey Bolton shows up and kills all the supporting Winterfell characters who are generally written as "good" and burning down the Stark ancestral home. Brienne who is trying to do the one honorable thing, is reunited with her friend Catelyn Stark and is strung up and hanged for not wanting to murder Jaime (which she probably is going to attempt to do to save Podrick's life and will make a vow to Stoneheart).

The one rule in the ASOIAF series? Anything bad that can happen to the "good guys" will and worse. If things are ever going their way, expect it to eventually end bad in the next book. That's why I don't expect happy endings for Sam, Jaime (who is now a character most readers seem to root for) or Jon Snow. Maybe Dany will do all right, because GRRM seems to really like her.

On a side note, I'm not criticizing the series so much as critiquing it and noticing a pattern/formula. I personally like the Littlefinger character, but he is the only one doing well. The most hatable characters like Cersei or Tywin? They go on for entire novels longer with success than the more likable characters and only seem to fall by turning on themselves and eating each other. Which while entertaining, doesn't satisfy the general sense of "justice" many readers look for. Great subversion, but after 3,000 pages it can get old.

Sorry for the length of that.

Spoiler

And I would again state that the only thing seeming cynical here is you, the way you write, and the way you report thinking about the writer and the series. And again, you seem to be basing off this presupposition for a general readerbase that might exist, might not exist, might back your point, and might not back your point. I can tell you, in all my days of discussing this series over the few years since I've read AGoT through AFfC, I can't recall a single time I've seen someone complain that GRRM is a horse's *** because Tywin was around for too long, or because Cersei is still alive, because Clegane got an upper hand on Martell, because Tyrion had to run away, or what have you.

While, yes, Ned dying in such a manner subverts a trope, he is not killed in order to subvert the trope. There's a subtle difference there. To indicate the latter removes consideration for the progression of the narrative and how everything conspires to present that fulcrum. Did GRRM know he was going to kill Ned from the beginning? Yes, I believe that. Did he write a story just so he could kill the hero and troll the readers? No. Rather, he wrote a story in which the archetypal hero cannot realistically survive, presenting us with a rich, enjoyable, and mature narrative, rather than - Oh, Ned's the hero, so check it out, he can get out of anything.

Similarly with Robb - Robb is very much his father's son, with the same virtues and flaws, and goes down a similar path. We see Robb through Catelyn's POV, though, because she is the POV character. There would be little sense in having both Robb and Catelyn as POV characters, and to be honest, with the narrative as we have it, I can't see a reason for Robb being a POV character at all, much as I would have liked it. You can call it a subversion if you really want to, but I believe you're reading a little too much into this.

For what it's worth, following the Red Wedding, I threw my book. I then promptly made sure it was okay and not dented, and then went back to reading it. Saying GRRM takes glee in any of this, however, is silly, unless you personally know the man and can attest to his feelings on any given matter.

As for Tyrion - yes, the ostracized dwarf is ostracized. This is fair, not cynical on the writer's part. Tyrion exhibits a similar role to Ned. While we, the consumers of the media, might root for Tyrion as an underdog, and I suppose we as a collective culture (meaning Western, here) have been brought up on the idea that the underdog should win in the end, that doesn't mean it should actually happen, or can. Furthermore, there's quite a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy to Tyrion's character. He acts under the belief that people are going to be against him, or out to get him, and as such acts in a way toward people that makes them want to be against him, or out to get him. But back to the original sentence in this paragraph, as I'm confused as to what you expect - did you expect Tywin or Cersei, two people who have never felt anything but hatred toward the little man, to change their tune? Or did you expect Tyrion to overpower them and win? Because neither outcome is realistic, just as a peaceful resolution between them is unrealistic, given how volatile the three are.

It's called characterization, and given what happens to Tywin, I'd say Tyrion did in fact get the upper hand there. Again, characterization, just like Littlefinger's chaotic nature strengthening him in a chaotic situation.

As for the rest of it - if you want to view it that way, I highly doubt a talk with GRRM himself could stop it. I personally see it as a horrible way to view any type of literature, much less one I assume you're reading for enjoyment.

All of it is the ebb and flow of a realistic world, where people come and go. I see it in no way to be something where nothing good ever happens, or nothing happy occurs, where all hope is lost, the aimless lolgrimdark people like to mock. There are numerous happy bits throughout all four novels. There are also consequences to be paid for every action a character takes. Some we have not seen unfold yet, considering there are two novels yet to be written and published. And considering you haven't read ADwD yet, again, you're speaking from a slightly skewed point, even if you want to state you have enough evidence to create a talking point.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

You should probably read A Dance with Dragons, since it's out.

Regardless, an overall reply to the quoted posts:
(Don't click on this box unless you've read through A Feast for Crows.

Spoiler

Maybe you're just speaking for yourself - though your initial blackout was second-person, not first- or even third-person, so I'm not sure - but no, not every character I like is getting died or ****ed over. I didn't like Ned. I hated Cat. Meanwhile, you're jumping to conclusions for Arya and Tyrion without having read their further adventures in ADwD. I like Jon - lots of people like Jon. He hasn't lost everything. He's been making pretty good for himself by the end of ASoS, actually, minus some little loss. I love Jaime - I know, he's one of those characters I'm supposed to hate, who always comes out on top, or something, aside from his wound there. On that note, Tywin didn't come out on top. And neither has Cersei, from where you've read. Not to mention countless others. What about Sam? I assume he's a likable character in most cases - he isn't dead or **** on.

There is nothing to suggest GRRM is out to get the readers, as you suggest. That also presupposes that all readers want the same thing out of a reading experience, which is a pretty silly thing to presuppose. Rather, his characters act as his characters should and would act within the realm and story he's created, without his giving a damn for the consequences or whether it obeys typical "rules." It isn't turning something on its head - he's giving us a story made from maturity. No, not maturity of adult situations and language, though there is, of course, that. Rather, maturity of story and its growth.

Littlefinger's the guy who seems to be thriving most? Think about that. Littlefinger thrives best in a chaotic situation where nobody's paying attention to him? Hmm... No, that couldn't possibly be character development.

The Freys are snakes, and like any snakey person or family, they huddle toward the winning side. Will everything come out hunky dory for them? You have to assume that depends on who wields power when it's all said and done. Haha, maybe the Freys will be the ones with power.

I wouldn't call Arya being made blind cruel, considering it's part of what she wanted. Furthermore, you haven't read A Dance with Dragons.

As for Jaime, I have an idea for what his final fate is going to involve, and it relates back to one of Bran's dream prophecies from the first book. But I don't see why I should assume, oh, he's going to die, lulz.

If anything, given how you write about this, you're the one coming off as cynical, not GRRM's writing.

*Round of Applause*

I'm with your assessment of the story & it's motives 100%. There's a very realistic note throughout the series, a reality based on the world he's built & for me at least, it builds anticipation for every major event because you never know what's going to happen.

Anyone predicting calamity at every turn would be disappointed, just as would anyone looking for sparkling rainbow vista round every bend.

It's a mixed bag, far more mixed when there's turmoil in the realm & men with selfish ambitions in power. The Westeros are still going through it's greatest metamorphosis since the Conqueror & chaos tends to breed injustice.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I'm with you man. In Westeros right now the "Roman Empire" has fallen, feudal lords try to hold sway. Add to that a coming winter that's gonna leave an entire continent frozen and barren for many years. It's the rise of medieval Europe, only with a winter more deadly than the plague.

 

[DACrowe]

Spoiler

And I would again state that the only thing seeming cynical here is you, the way you write, and the way you report thinking about the writer and the series. And again, you seem to be basing off this presupposition for a general readerbase that might exist, might not exist, might back your point, and might not back your point. I can tell you, in all my days of discussing this series over the few years since I've read AGoT through AFfC, I can't recall a single time I've seen someone complain that GRRM is a horse's *** because Tywin was around for too long, or because Cersei is still alive, because Clegane got an upper hand on Martell, because Tyrion had to run away, or what have you.

Spoiler

I am not complaining. You're trying to turn this into something personal. I actually like how the Tyrion story played out. However, there is a pattern/formula to his writing where it becomes about subverting readers' expectations by essentially kicking the "good guys" in the proverbial nuts again and again. The most obvious example is the Starks. Most of the protagonists or "good guys" in the first book are Starks. The first book is told mostly from their perspective. Readers tend to identify with the protagonists they are reading about (this is not some absurd or abstract concept I'm applying here). It is why so many people like at least one of the various Starks and despise Joffrey or Cersei so much. Thus far in the series, the Starks have had their patriarch killed, the eldest son killed, the mother killed (and brought back as a monstrous zombie-type creature), their home burned down, the children scattered to the wind with most of the heirs assumed dead by the general populace (Bran, Rickon, Arya) and forced into various places of hiding including an assassin school on a different continent that blinds one of them, one pretending to be the bastard daughter of the man who engineered the death of her father and who (probably) wants to sleep with her and another who is still recovering from being paralyzed from the waste down at the age of 8.

After four books can you admit there is a pattern in this? I'm not saying it is necessarily bad or that you cannot like it. But there is a formula to it as much as, say, good guys (Harry Potter or Luke Skywalker) triumphing over their obstacles every episode/book.

Spoiler

While, yes, Ned dying in such a manner subverts a trope, he is not killed in order to subvert the trope. There's a subtle difference there. To indicate the latter removes consideration for the progression of the narrative and how everything conspires to present that fulcrum. Did GRRM know he was going to kill Ned from the beginning? Yes, I believe that. Did he write a story just so he could kill the hero and troll the readers? No. Rather, he wrote a story in which the archetypal hero cannot realistically survive, presenting us with a rich, enjoyable, and mature narrative, rather than - Oh, Ned's the hero, so check it out, he can get out of anything.

[blackout]Agreed. I said as much. It progressed the story and lit a match for the rest of the series. But it was the first in what would become a repeated staple of the series and GRRM's writing style.[/blackout]

[blackout]Similarly with Robb - Robb is very much his father's son, with the same virtues and flaws, and goes down a similar path. We see Robb through Catelyn's POV, though, because she is the POV character. There would be little sense in having both Robb and Catelyn as POV characters, and to be honest, with the narrative as we have it, I can't see a reason for Robb being a POV character at all, much as I would have liked it. You can call it a subversion if you really want to, but I believe you're reading a little too much into this.

For what it's worth, following the Red Wedding, I threw my book. I then promptly made sure it was okay and not dented, and then went back to reading it. Saying GRRM takes glee in any of this, however, is silly, unless you personally know the man and can attest to his feelings on any given matter.[/blackout]

[blackout]I think choosing to make Cat the POV for ACOK/ASOS has more to do with deconstructing how boy-heroes are portrayed in anything from Arthur to Eragon/Seeker-guy. He could have chosen Robb's POV instead. Or have both like Tyrion and Sansa representing King's Landing in ACOK. There's no denying Robb had his own things with his battles and marriage to Jeyne Westerling we find out second-hand. Also, I'd argue Robb is not his father's son. That is more Jon (even if he is actually his nephew ). Robb chose love over duty which led to the same result....death. And though the RW is only a little over halfway through ASOS, it is arguably its climax. After that book, many readers have expressed frustration with the series because it becomes a "downer" or some variation on that. I personally just think it becomes apparent that nothing particularly "good" will happen to characters many readers identify with in the series. I still enjoyed AFFC despite knowing this.

On the RW, I also threw ASOS down. And immediately began to continue reading. I'm not hating on these books. Perhaps he doesn't kill them gleefully, but you cannot deny he likes killing off many of his characters.[/blackout]

I could continue dissecting our discussion point by point and character by character. But it'd go too long. So I'll just end on two of your final points.

I personally see it as a horrible way to view any type of literature, much less one I assume you're reading for enjoyment.

All of it is the ebb and flow of a realistic world, where people come and go. I see it in no way to be something where nothing good ever happens, or nothing happy occurs, where all hope is lost, the aimless lolgrimdark people like to mock.

I really don't understand why fans take it so personally to have something they love analyzed or critiqued. I throughly enjoy and like ASOIAF. But I, like many readers and even critics, can notice how GRRM has penchant for killing off characters that readers like while leaving most of the ones they dislike alive and (usually) in power. It reaches a point where it no longer feels like it's being "realistic" (which it is far moreso than all other fantasy series) and becomes almost contrarian. That doesn't mean it's bad. It just means he has a certain style for how these things play out in this series that some readers pick up on. Some dislike it and some notice it and accept it (like myself). It's not all dark and there are (fleeting) moments of relief in the story. But I feel like this would be if someone took offense by a critic saying "In most of Shakespeare's tragedies, the main characters die." The counter is that there is humor in those plays like Horatio or Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, and that you can't generalize his tragedies like that. You could point to characters whom people like that live (ex. Horatio) or how characters people hate die (ex. Claudius). That still doesn't take away that ol' Bard tends to killed his protagonists in those stories. Noticing that doesn't make it bad. It just is noticing how those stories tend to play out.