Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 4

[ChickenScratch]

The Ramsey thing happens before he comes to be the legitimate heir by killing (and possibly eating) his brother.

To get into his place in the story now would be more spoilery He and Reek are really tied together as ccahracters.

 

[Mikelus]

My problem with this finale is the same as my problem with last year's finale. It is incredibly underwhelming compared to the penultimate episode. Basically it was just tying up some loose ends here and there. The big grand finales were (like last year), while visually impressive were two story lines that I give no **** about because they are so disconnected from the main plot. On a good week we spend maybe ten minutes with Jon and Dany and for the most part it has either been Jon wandering around the snow aimlessly or Dany overacting with her eyebrows and ranting about being the mother of dragons. It is hard to feel connected to them or feel satisfaction over Dany's triumph or fear for the wall's pending danger.

You're wrong!! Wrong, wrong wrong!!! Is the best series in television history, period!!!!!!

I agree, it was underwhelming. I thought Blackwater was a bit underwhelming too, they just don't have the budget to do such an epic battle justice, plus the ending was rushed and cliché.

They should change what is not working that well so far (e.g. Dany's arc), even if fans of the books get angry. What matters is a well-written story, also, changing some things could make the series less predictable for the ones that know the books.

 

[Matt]

The Ramsey thing happens before he comes to be the legitimate heir by killing (and possibly eating) his brother.

To get into his place in the story now would be more spoilery He and Reek are really tied together as ccahracters.

But Bolton already discussed his bastard as the one retaking Winterfell.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I would prefer if we didn't focus on Matt, for he has Mod powers, and attacking his personal opinions (despite having legitimate arguments for and against his points) might result in him unleashing his Mod powers. Let's move on to happier and better places, such as discussing season 3.

We don't want Matt unleashing his dragons mod powers on us.

A lot of people are talking about Theon's first mate being Ramsay, who is Bolton's bastard, right? How would that even work?

I think that's BS. What likely happened is this: (speculation based on what I've already read, so spoilers)

Spoiler

The Ironborn either knew of Robb's offer (they can go home, Theon stays so he can be executed) or just wanted to yield to the Northmen siege. Since Theon wanted to die fighting and they didn't, they just knocked him out and yielded. However, Ramsay Snow makes Joffrey look like a saint. So he likely cut [most of] them down, killed the villagers, burned Winterfell, and took Theon captive. If anyone saw it, they would probably assume Theon did it defending from the Northmen.

I think Theon's first mate survives though. He's the only other one who knows Bran and Rickon are alive which is kind of necessary for something later in the 5th book.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Honestly, I wouldn't have them change the pacing really at all, but I would have them change the way they handle some of the elements of the individual plot lines. As some have said, Dany's exit of the House of the Undying felt a little rushed. Also, the "twist" with her old handmaiden having betrayed her...it didn't really have any weight because it had been so long since I had seen her. And since she was never a big character to begin with, I didn't recognize her at first. They need to realize that since Dany's arc is less involved, the audience isn't going to care as much about the smaller characters because we don's see them that much.

But in terms of how the stories are seperated...I'm completely fine with it. As I said before, Heroes did the same thing, and I loved it then to. (S1 that is...the others...not so much.) Now yes, at the end of S1 heroes tied it all up, BUT this obviously has a longer endgame. And I'm fine with that. I don't want it to wrap up that quickly, I like that they're taking their time.

 

[Infinity9999x]

We don't want Matt unleashing his dragons mod powers on us.

t:t:

Haha, really though, as long as no one is being a jerk, it'll be fine. Matt's one of the most opinionated posters on here, but I've never seen him abuse his power since I've been around. To be honest, I've always liked debating with Matt because he tends to back up his arguments with things like logic (crazy I know right?). So even when I tend to disagree with him, it's always an enjoyable debate.

 

[DACrowe]

I would prefer if we didn't focus on Matt, for he has Mod powers, and attacking his personal opinions (despite having legitimate arguments for and against his points) might result in him unleashing his Mod powers. Let's move on to happier and better places, such as discussing season 3.

We already know some of the characters who will be cast, like Stannis' wife and daughter, Cat's brother and uncle, Mance Rayder, among others. Who are you looking forward to seeing most? Myself personally am interested in Rayder, the books gave him a decent amount of characterization, but I hope the show (and the actor) take him to a different level, and it would elevate Snow's storyline, which I felt was a bit mishandled at the end.

I honestly think they should leave out Stannis's wife and daughter. They don't really add anything to the story and cutting them out of S2 saved time. I wish they'd continue to save that time. I imagine though that it's done to give Stannis something more to do in S3 as it's the second half of ASOS (S4) where he really gets to shine.

That said, I can't wait to see Mance Rayder and possibly Ramsay Bolton. I know a lot of Rome fans are campaigning for James Purefoy to play Mance, but I think he's far too sarcastic and besides he'll be in that Kevin Williamson show next season. So instead, I put forward Kevin McKidd. He was also on Rome and is a great actor. He normally is cast as someone with a lot of repressed anger and anguish. However, he has shown versatility and great charisma so casting him as someone who is completely unrepressed and is instead living happily as a "savage" seems very interesting to me.

I also look forward to meeting Meera and Jojen (though Jojen is kind of annoying, IMO). I wonder if we'll see Riverrun given that Edmure Tully and the Blackfish will be in next year. I'd imagine as they saved money by avoiding Riverrun this year, they may do so again next year (though Robb banishing Cat there kind of makes sense). Most of all I'm looking forward to the return of Walder Frey and what comes next for the Lannisters in KL.

Should make for the best season of the series if it's adapted well.

 

[DACrowe]

A lot of people are talking about Theon's first mate being Ramsay, who is Bolton's bastard, right? How would that even work?

I don't think he is, because it never really would make sense for Ramsay to be first mate of an Iron Island boat without all the islanders knowing.

The reason is they gave this character (I believe his name was Cleftjaw) much of Ramsay's introduction. In ACOK, Bolton's bastard is imprisoned to await execution by Bran Stark (a bollar' at 9!) for letting his wife starve to death after she pleaded for help and Bran's men said it wasn't needed. Theon frees the bastard who becomes Theon's confidant and is the one who points to acorns or something and hints at Theon to kill the miller's sons and pass off their tarred/burned heads as Bran and Rickon. It is also Ramsay who betrays Theon as they gear up for battle. Theon is despised by Ser Rodrik (who is still alive at this point) who has come to Winterfell with men to kill Theon "Turncloak." Theon is about to take Maester Luwin's advice and surrender to Rodrik and take the black when Ramsay, who Theon sent to get reinforcements, comes back and slaughters Ser Rodrik. However, once inside, Ramsay knocks out Theon and that's the last we see of his story in that book.

My guess is they didn't want to introduce Ramsay as an important character so late in the season when Theon takes Winterfell (wasn't it like episode 6?) when they already have an excess of characters. So, they gave the role of seedy confidant to Theon's first mate (a relatively minor character in the book) and had him betray Theon to save his neck. Streamlining the story and saving the introduction for next year.

 

[ChickenScratch]

I think adding Stannis' daughter brings with it the possibility of having the court jester say some of his madness.

Spoiler

I always thought what he said could be seen not only as crazy but as blasphemous considering what he has seen under the sea is pretty much what the Drowned Men of the Iron Islands believe in.

 

[DACrowe]

]They should change what is not working that well so far (e.g. Dany's arc), even if fans of the books get angry. What matters is a well-written story, also, changing some things could make the series less predictable for the ones that know the books.

I honestly hope they let Dany [blackout]reach Westeros by the end of Season 5.[/blackout] It's gone on too long in the books, it'd be ridiculously awful for a TV show to go as long as it is now.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Depends. What if she waits till she can foreseeably just march right in there and take it. We have seen her building her for es and learning to be a leader (harder to do with the actress, but more believable for the young girl turned queen)

 

[Thundercrack85]

So is Davos dead?

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Spoiler

Nope

 

[Mikelus]

I honestly hope they let Dany [blackout]reach Westeros by the end of Season 5.[/blackout] It's gone on too long in the books, it'd be ridiculously awful for a TV show to go as long as it is now.

I won't be surprised if they go for it even earlier (S4). I'm sure TPTB know they can improve many aspects from the books.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I won't be surprised if they go for it even earlier (S4). I'm sure TPTB know they can improve many aspects from the books.

I really don't think that will happen. GRRM messed this up in the books, but to change it on the show would change far too much imo.

 

[Marvolo]

Dany's story can be improved and paced better. Its something I hope they work on.

 

[Buford The Sly]

Uh oh... We've got all kinds of books discussion up in dis place!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Dany's story can be improved and paced better. Its something they should workout with GRRM. Its one place I hope the tv show deviates from the book.

Yes it could, but if the show did something like that it would alter a lot. It is possible, but how they have handled the pacing so far I doubt it.

Uh oh... We've got all kinds of books discussion up in dis place!

This is show discussion.

 

[mr. peasant]

But in terms of how the stories are seperated...I'm completely fine with it. As I said before, Heroes did the same thing, and I loved it then to. (S1 that is...the others...not so much.) Now yes, at the end of S1 heroes tied it all up, BUT this obviously has a longer endgame. And I'm fine with that. I don't want it to wrap up that quickly, I like that they're taking their time.

Actually, Heroes Season 1 were all connected - building up to the Linderman/New York explosion at the season finale. As such, it was clear fairly early on within the season itself how the storylines were going to line up and that they were going to line up. It was Season 2 onwards where the storylines started to break up with the different characters/subplots being independent of one another and/or the central one. Admittedly, that was the least of the show's problems, it sure wasn't helping.

Honestly, I wouldn't have them change the pacing really at all, but I would have them change the way they handle some of the elements of the individual plot lines. As some have said, Dany's exit of the House of the Undying felt a little rushed. Also, the "twist" with her old handmaiden having betrayed her...it didn't really have any weight because it had been so long since I had seen her. And since she was never a big character to begin with, I didn't recognize her at first. They need to realize that since Dany's arc is less involved, the audience isn't going to care as much about the smaller characters because we don's see them that much.

As strange as it sounds, I think the show's heavy use of twists is somewhat of a problem. The show is so busy trying to subvert our expectations and throw shockers our way that we start to become desensitised to them. Back in Season 1, there were only a few major twists - Cersei boning Jaime, Viserys' death and Ned's execution. After that last one, we - the audience - learn to expect anything from the show. And when the show delivers these twists with such regularity, they simply just become the norm for the show (think Shyamalan movies - we may not know what the twist may be, but we know there's one coming) and less impactful.

I dunno... people, would 'apathy' be an apt description?

 

[Marvolo]

The audience would certainly become numb to the effect if they throw a lot of twists our way in too short of a time.

 

[DACrowe]

The audience will become even number if we're 5-6 seasons into the show and Dany is still chilling on another continent. It's been too slow in the books and it'd be really too slow for a show.

 

[Marvolo]

I don't see it being good for the show either, but I guess we shall see.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Her story needs to be reworked some. In A Dance With Dragons,

Spoiler

She's chilling out in Meereen for most of it I think. The reason I read these chapters is only for her interaction with [blackout]Barristan Selmy[/blackout] who gives you more about the Targaryen's history. Other than that, they're boring. I think 2 have been nothing but her sitting listening to people in the city. They can speed this up, have her do this in Volantis so it's at least closer to Westeros.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think adding Stannis' daughter brings with it the possibility of having the court jester say some of his madness.

Spoiler

I always thought what he said could be seen not only as crazy but as blasphemous considering what he has seen under the sea is pretty much what the Drowned Men of the Iron Islands believe in.

He also makes some accurate predictions in his rambling, stuff like the RW. There's definitely something more to that insane creature.

 

[omid17]

Soo savage!!! the army of Whitewalkers were sick!!

pretty sad to see my boy Jaqen go but him turning into Valar Morghulis was pretty insane!

Robb why did you have to do it now man? your in a middle of a ****ing war, she must have been real good in bed

my goodness never thought id see the good side of Joeffry, him hooking up his gramps, Baylesh and the Tyrell was awesome. he didn't even want to give up Sansa

Danys story was a little weak sauce, imo they just wanted to show off the other two dragons and their fire(wich was pretty bad ass). The dragons could have killed that dude a long time ago, why wait for mommys permission?