Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 19

[BlackSuitTrael]

Henry has pretty consistently said the plan was for Superman to evolve so that by MOS2 he'd be the warmer and more optimistic Superman people wanted in the first place, and that this arc was unfortunately delayed in favor of doing Batman v Superman and Justice League first. And then neither BVS or JL got the reception the studio wanted and MOS2 ended up in limbo as a result.

Now, YMMV on whether that was a smart idea (I've seen a number of fans snark that it was dumb to play the long game with Supeman) or if MOS2 would've been any less divisive than the first movie, but it's clear Cavill got screwed the most on WB chasing that MCU money. Even with the disastrous reactions to BVS and JL, Wonder Woman and Aquaman came out smelling like roses in a way Superman didn't.

Ironically, the success of Gal's Wonder Woman and Jason's Aquaman should remind the studio that the casting and talent is there. Henry's Superman was under the guidance of Zack Snyder entirely. A fresh coat of paint can do wonders. We've seen it happen and it CAN be done with Henry quite easily.

 

[SupermanFan]

Ironically, the success of Gal's Wonder Woman and Jason's Aquaman should remind the studio that the casting and talent is there. Henry's Superman was under the guidance of Zack Snyder entirely. A fresh coat of paint can do wonders. We've seen it happen and it CAN be done with Henry quite easily.

What made those movies work too is they were very true to the core of those characters. That’s what Superman needs and what he deserves.

 

[Herolee10]

This may just be me but I feel like the past few Superman films that we've gotten have done a bad job in giving Superman's character a strong voice on film.

For example, Brandon's Superman had very little dialogue given to him in the film. While Henry's Superman (MOS) was a step in the right direction, I still don't recall him having much to day as well. I don't think anyone is asking for Superman to give put several long speeches. But he needs to be give a louder voice that allows him to express his mindset on film.

 

[SupermanFan]

This may just be me but I feel like the past few Superman films that we've gotten have done a bad job in giving Superman's character a strong voice on film.

For example, Brandon's Superman had very little dialogue given to him in the film. While Henry's Superman (MOS) was a step in the right direction, as still don't recall him having much to day as well. I don't think anyone is asking for Superman to give put several long speeches. But he needs to be give a louder voice that allows him to express his mindset on film.

I agree with you, Henry did have a lot more to say than Brandon that’s for sure (heck Brandon had more to say in Crisis than he did in Superman Returns) but he still didn’t have enough of a voice, more so in BvS than MOS though.

 

[Herolee10]

I agree with you, Henry did have a lot more to say than Brandon that’s for sure (heck Brandon had more to say in Crisis than he did in Superman Returns) but he still didn’t have enough of a voice, more so in BvS than MOS though.

Yeah, it's funny how Brandon had more to say in Crisis than he did in SR. The irony here is that Brandon's character was supposed to be, in essence, the same version portrayed by Christopher Reeve (who had plenty of dialogue).

Honestly, if the MCU can make someone like Captain America work on film where he's loved and adored by millions of fans then DC has no excuses for Superman.

 

[BlackSuitTrael]

This may just be me but I feel like the past few Superman films that we've gotten have done a bad job in giving Superman's character a strong voice on film.

For example, Brandon's Superman had very little dialogue given to him in the film. While Henry's Superman (MOS) was a step in the right direction, I still don't recall him having much to day as well. I don't think anyone is asking for Superman to give put several long speeches. But he needs to be give a louder voice that allows him to express his mindset on film.

The thing with Man of Steel, is that Clark's voice, so to speak, was by design and not so much with misunderstanding the character, especially when the main arc was focusing on alien origin.

I do agree though that the fresh coat of paint that Henry needs is officially embracing the crest of Superman while at the same time, coinciding with the people and BEING their voice as well. Superman works so much better and confident when he and the people forge together as one. Henry's Superman has been silenced in ways so for his character to finally be allowed to breathe and be allowed to charm on more of the iconic side of things then Cavill's Superman will feel much, much more complete. There's STILL payoff to be had there.

 

[heatvision38]

I don't think a lot of writers know how to write the voice of Superman. There are plenty that are amazing at it, but there are writers who seem to struggle with how to write the larger-than-life, aspirational aspect of Superman with the human aspect of him so that he is both. That's one thing I loved about Mark Waid's Birthright is that he felt like Superman in the legendary sense, but also felt relatable and human. It's not an easy balance to strike. Either writers write him more as an idea or ideal or they write him as too human and ordinary.

Christopher Reeve's Superman just nailed that balance for me. He has plenty of dialogue, but the way he walks, his facial expressions, he seems larger than life yet relatable at the same time to me. I do think Cavill has both, but I would like to see him be more open as time goes on if we get more of him post JL. I get why he was reserved in MOS and BvS, that makes sense. But post JL, he's living in a world with other heroes, where he's part of a league, where the world is no longer all on his shoulders.

 

[Herolee10]

I don't think a lot of writers know how to write the voice of Superman. There are plenty that are amazing at it, but there are writers who seem to struggle with how to write the larger-than-life, aspirational aspect of Superman with the human aspect of him so that he is both. That's one thing I loved about Mark Waid's Birthright is that he felt like Superman in the legendary sense, but also felt relatable and human. It's not an easy balance to strike. Either writers write him more as an idea or ideal or they write him as too human and ordinary.

Christopher Reeve's Superman just nailed that balance for me. He has plenty of dialogue, but the way he walks, his facial expressions, he seems larger than life yet relatable at the same time to me. I do think Cavill has both, but I would like to see him be more open as time goes on if we get more of him post JL. I get why he was reserved in MOS and BvS, that makes sense. But post JL, he's living in a world with other heroes, where he's part of a league, where the world is no longer all on his shoulders.

There was one line from BvS that perfectly captured Superman's character imho: "Maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing."

Imho, Superman has always been a very relatable person that just happens to be viewed as this larger than life character due to his actions. It's not that different from how Captain America is like in the MCU. Stories like "Birthright" and "Secret Origins" are great examples of how Superman should be portrayed for a modern audience.

 

[SupermanFan]

Yeah, it's funny how Brandon had more to say in Crisis than he did in SR. The irony here is that Brandon's character was supposed to be, in essence, the same version portrayed by Christopher Reeve (who had plenty of dialogue).

Honestly, if the MCU can make someone like Captain America work on film where he's loved and adored by millions of fans then DC has no excuses for Superman.

Yeah that always bothered me, Singer pretty much saw Superman as a man of action (which ironic given how little action there is in the film), I think he saw him as more of a Fleischer type of Superman whereas he saw Clark more like Reeve. An odd choice given his clear love of Superman the Movie.but even with aspects of that (e.g. Lois & Clark Relationship) he seemed to completely miss the point. I’ve actually got the shooting script which was printed into a soft cover and he does have sone more dialogue but Singer didn’t go with it, don’t know if it was filmed & cut or just chanted on set but again it’s odd that he’d choose to cut even minor lines of Superman dialogue. A key one for me was when Superman first returns to the Fortress he talks to Jor El as he enters and says something along the lines of “Father, it’s been a long time since I’ve come to you but I’ve never felt so alone”, he then notices the crystals are gone and in disbelief & anger yells out “FATHER” before flying off. Instead Singer had him silent notice the crystals then fly off in anger. I don’t get why at all.

For me Superman Returns will always be THE missed opportunity when it comes to Superman.

 

[Superchan]

I just don't think it's the generation for Superman. Superman represents a time when America was great...........................
Superman feels out of place. He feels old fashioned. Like a relic from a time that no longer exists. IMO.
Then there's the fact that he's nearly indestructible, and creating tension is difficult. He's a hard character to write for. WB doesn't really know what to do with him, because the general audience just isn't super into him anymore, IMO.

With all due respect but the only thing outdated about Superman are those damn never ending excuses of "he's too nice", "he's too powerful", because god forbid a character called SUPERman would be powerful!
Superman's peaks in popularity were in 1938 (9 years after the great depression and 1 yr before WW2), not exactly the best of time for humanity and 1978 which was only a few years after Vietnam and the Watergate scandal, not exactly the age of optimism for America, yet superman shone through because Superman is wish fulfillment and hope, he's an escape from a dour reality.

Kal-el is an illegal immigrant, who came to America and shared his gifts with the country that adopted him.
Clark Kent is an adopted kid who grew up in America's heartland and happens to have a profession that is under fire right now. He's also a regular guy who lives in a humble apartment, works a 9-5 job, has a boss, has deadlines and is in love with a girl that doesn't see beyond his glasses.
Superman is a hero who pissed off Hitler and helped defeat the KKK (true story on both), a hero whose biggest villain is a greedy member of the 1% club who was once upon a time the president of the US of A.
Seriously if any writer comes in a says Superman is difficult to write or irrelevant after everything I just said then all I can say is "F*** YOU! Come and see me, I'll give you 20 bucks, go and buy a damn imagination"

In the last 30 years, Superman, arguably the most iconic superhero in the world, has had 2 solo films. Superman Returns which was ultimately a failure on it's own, then Man of Steel which was successful enough to get a sequel, however WB immediately skipped about 5 steps & moved straight to team up movies with BvS.......

Look you are preaching to the quire, but to be honest and fair Superman's had 7 films since 1978 and 3 live action tv shows and another one is coming sometime next year; our boy easily has the most material of any superhero (Batman and Spidy included) when it comes to live action.
Superman's problem isn't quantity, but rather quality. I am the kind of guy who would take a great, nay just a good superman movie over the the rubbish ones that we've gotten in the 21st century.
QUALITY is key here and if WB are taking their time to make sure the quality is there then I'm cool with it, now whether that happens or not remains a question fit for the riddler.

 

[Herolee10]

Honestly, if Warner Bros are concerned about pouring out loads of money for another Superman film due to previous box office revenues, then they should aim towards creating a story that doesn't involve the world being threatened by another alien menace.

Bring back Henry and Amy with their characters taking on General Lane, Intergang, and some of Superman's earth-tier villains (e.g Metallo, Parasite, etc.). If that film does well then follow up with another film that involves Brainiac, Supergirl, and Lobo.

 

[The Guard]

The issue of Superman's relevance to a modern audience is one I keep hearing, but don't quite get. He is arguably more relevant now than ever; an immigrant, trying to find his place in the world whilst still honoring all the ideals he believes in, which are somewhat ageless but have a contemporary importance right now - equality, honesty, honour, kindness, respect. Ideals that many seem to have cast aside.

These are the issues that were pointed out about Superman prior to the development of MOS, and arguably, pre SUPERMAN RETURNS. They are essentially WHY WB made MOS and BVS as they did. They do not seem to be the prevailing issues audiences/writers have with Superman anymore. Probably because the approach in MOS and BVS are viewed as a step too far.

To a certain extent, Captain America is the Marvel mirror image of Superman. Not in terms of his powers, but in his attitude and the old fashioned view of some that he's a grown up boy scout. Brought up to respect people, doesn't curse, doesn't go over the top with how he handles bad guys, believes in the truth and justice and all that. Yet Marvel have shown that not only is it totally possible to make his character work in a modern setting, but he became one of the most popular MCU heroes ever. He has a very similar perseverance and never-give-up attitude to Superman, and I doubt there was a single audience member during Endgame who wasn't cheering him on - silently or loudly - when he got up onto his feet to face Thanos' army on his own.

Eh. Kind of. While Cap is shown to be fairly morally balanced, his "old fashioned" views are often played for humor, or used as one liners, in the films. His good old fashioned nature is poked fun at. Gently, but it's still made fun of.

Those facets of the characters of both Superman and Captain America are ageless. They will always appeal to the good in people no matter the era. They're fundamental ideals we all aspire to. Zack Snyder - love or hate him - certainly got some of this concept right in MOS, and had Jor-El try to impart this to Kal-El.

I think Snyder got plenty of it right in BVS, too, he just did a lot of it visually VS having characters say how Superman was inspiring and hopeful and optimistic and so on. Superman, as a character, is allowed to question himself, the world, and so on, as long as he gets back up, which he very much did.

The thing with Man of Steel, is that Clark's voice, so to speak, was by design and not so much with misunderstanding the character, especially when the main arc was focusing on alien origin.

I do agree though that the fresh coat of paint that Henry needs is officially embracing the crest of Superman while at the same time, coinciding with the people and BEING their voice as well. Superman works so much better and confident when he and the people forge together as one. Henry's Superman has been silenced in ways so for his character to finally be allowed to breathe and be allowed to charm on more of the iconic side of things then Cavill's Superman will feel much, much more complete. There's STILL payoff to be had there.

Yup. And interactions with Shazam and Black Adam are perfect opportunities for solid character redemption; mentoring a younger hero to be more hopeful (or vice versa, which would be a fantastic angle), and helping another antihero toward redemption.

 

[MaceB]

With all due respect but the only thing outdated about Superman are those damn never ending excuses of "he's too nice", "he's too powerful", because god forbid a character called SUPERman would be powerful!
Superman's peaks in popularity were in 1938 (9 years after the great depression and 1 yr before WW2), not exactly the best of time for humanity and 1978 which was only a few years after Vietnam and the Watergate scandal, not exactly the age of optimism for America, yet superman shone through because Superman is wish fulfillment and hope, he's an escape from a dour reality.

Kal-el is an illegal immigrant, who came to America and shared his gifts with the country that adopted him.
Clark Kent is an adopted kid who grew up in America's heartland and happens to have a profession that is under fire right now. He's also a regular guy who lives in a humble apartment, works a 9-5 job, has a boss, has deadlines and is in love with a girl that doesn't see beyond his glasses.
Superman is a hero who pissed off Hitler and helped defeat the KKK (true story on both), a hero whose biggest villain is a greedy member of the 1% club who was once upon a time the president of the US of A.
Seriously if any writer comes in a says Superman is difficult to write or irrelevant after everything I just said then all I can say is "F*** YOU! Come and see me, I'll give you 20 bucks, go and buy a damn imagination"



Look you are preaching to the quire, but to be honest and fair Superman's had 7 films since 1978 and 3 live action tv shows and another one is coming sometime next year; our boy easily has the most material of any superhero (Batman and Spidy included) when it comes to live action.
Superman's problem isn't quantity, but rather quality. I am the kind of guy who would take a great, nay just a good superman movie over the the rubbish ones that we've gotten in the 21st century.
QUALITY is key here and if WB are taking their time to make sure the quality is there then I'm cool with it, now whether that happens or not remains a question fit for the riddler.

You started out declaring your respect, and ended with calling me an expletive, because I have a different opinion than you on a comic book character.

Get some perspective, guy.

 

[matt47]

My simple two cents is,
Everything Superman said in MoS was exactly what I want out of my superman.
The way he handled himself with the military was perfect.

Just wish we got more of that.

 

[MbJ]

 

[SupermanFan]

Tbf we did just get three Supermen in Crisis

 

[BlackSuitTrael]

I feel ya little Jimmy!

Though 3 Batman equals one Superman.
BOOMSHAKALAKA

 

[Mr. E Nygma]

Man I don't know why but this poster just weirds me out. Forget that we have 3 Batmen, we need to talk about why Bill has 3 arms and a creepy look on his face.

 

[heatvision38]

The arrogance of a Batman fan vs the hopeful innocence of a Superman fan.

 

[moviefreak]

Wrong place!

 

[Superchan]

You started out declaring your respect, and ended with calling me an expletive, because I have a different opinion than you on a comic book character.

Get some perspective, guy.

Relax man, the expletive was NOT for you, it was for the writers and directors we see talking about how Superman is hard to write or do in general. I put with all due respect because I meant it! There is no problem with differing opinions.

 

[Elysium94]

Honestly, if Warner Bros are concerned about pouring out loads of money for another Superman film due to previous box office revenues, then they should aim towards creating a story that doesn't involve the world being threatened by another alien menace.

Bring back Henry and Amy with their characters taking on General Lane, Intergang, and some of Superman's earth-tier villains (e.g Metallo, Parasite, etc.). If that film does well then follow up with another film that involves Brainiac, Supergirl, and Lobo.

If they want to tell a personal Superman story with a smaller scale villain, perhaps somebody like Conduit?

Ken Braverman/Conduit, a cybernetically enhanced mercenary and childhood rival of Clark's. Was affected by the kryptonite shower that accompanied Clark's ship landing, leading to him experimenting with kryptonite weapons and implants when he grows up.
Grows a massive inferiority complex and obsession with Clark, eventually hunting him before figuring out he's Superman, leading to a climactic showdown in Smallville.

Braverman actually features in a flashback in Man of Steel.

Picture this: A Man of Steel followup features Clark comfortable at the Daily Planet, confident in his life as Superman. He's even engaged with Lois now. But as he's investigating the group Intergang, they hire the mercenary Conduit to fight Superman.

Conduit, Ken Braverman, knows Clark's secret as it's implied many from Smallville do. Perhaps a flashback to Clark confronting Ken in their youth, some accident involving the ship that gets covered up and changes Ken (leading to his growing powers and enhancements as an adult).

A cat-and-mouse story ensues between Superman and Conduit. Some film in the vein of Winter Soldier, except if Bucky Barnes had always been a villain.

The stakes of the film would not be a world-threatening crisis, but Clark's loved ones being at risk. Especially Lois, who he's building a life with. After all, Lois is his world.

 

[DCnightwing23]

I definitely think we need to see more of Superman's rogues gallery - while I would love to see a Brainiac vs Superman movie, doesn't that feel too soon after General Zod alien attack-type of story? I would love to see other smaller villains explored, that's what gets my vote.

Also, I'm not saying there shouldn't be a Brainiac movie - I think that would be amazing. But I am inclined to think you need to build to that epic/grand type of movie.

 

[MbJ]

 

[Superchan]

The way to go about this IMO is to have a clear idea about where they want to take CK/Superman as a character and then construct a story to do just that and then figure out which villain would fit said story. Wanting to bring in a particular villain out of some fanboy desire and then trying to construct a story around that is a bizarro-esque way of doing things IMO.
Superman comes first and foremost and every other character should exist solely to serve Superman's development, so whether it's a big scale alien invasion ala Brainiac or a smaller scale B-villain henchman like Metallo is irrelevant as long as it's Superman who is being served.