BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - Part 22

[Tra-El]

I assume he was talking BvS. I hope so. The stoic brooding Superman of MOS proved polarizing and making that his nature in DOJ would be a huge mistake IMO. Snyder needs to lighten the character a bit. Make him a nicer guy a la CA. And in this film. Not in JL.

Superman was far from brooding in Man of Steel, come on lol. And it's clear Snyder's Superman is no Boy Scout. I don't think anything was a mistake. This was clearly the Superman they wanted to create so if anything, they succeeded. This just isn't the cheesy stuff we're so use to. Clark showed tender moments in Man of Steel, but he's not going to be a pushover and his voice will be heard. Cavill said in BvS, he is no longer wet behind the ears. I'm sure we'll see a softer side in the moments that call for it, but in battle? This Supes is ALL business. That's how a leader acts...all business.

 

[Tobias]

Superman was far from brooding in Man of Steel, come on lol. And it's clear Snyder's Superman is no Boy Scout. I don't think anything was a mistake. This was clearly the Superman they wanted to create so if anything, they succeeded. This just isn't the cheesy stuff we're so use to. Clark showed tender moments in Man of Steel, but he's not going to be a pushover and his voice will be heard. Cavill said in BvS, he is no longer wet behind the ears. I'm sure we'll see a softer side in the moments that call for it, but in battle? This Supes is ALL business. That's how a leader acts...all business.

But is this the Superman audiences want? I am not convinced of that. It does not mean going back to cheesy. Its not either or, its finding the right mix.

 

[Tra-El]

But is this the Superman audiences want? I am not convinced of that. It does not mean going back to cheesy. Its not either or, its finding the right mix.

Audiences don't know what they want. They do want to be entertained and be shown a good movie. And judging by the history of ever, fanboys clearly don't know what the hell they want and nitpick things to an absolute nauseating death, so I stopped listening to those minds because we're the most vocal. It's Batman; it's Superman and there's going to be more movies to stack on this one. I know what I want, though and I'm glad they are developing this thing from movie to movie and Superman is no exception. I can't wait to see where we end up.

Its not either or, its finding the right mix.

Without a shadow of a doubt, I believe we'll get there. Come on people, as of March, we'll only be 2 movies in. Lets ride this wave. It's just begun.

 

[rogbngp]

I think it's pretty cool to see a Superman with a real command presence. In that scene with Batman where he warns him, Superman is walking right up to the line but I think it's fair to say that he avoids being an outright bully; he's just delivering a very stern message. But there are also hints here and there that there may be something weird going on with Superman also. It's going to be fascinating to see what the actual story is.

 

[Tobias]

Audiences don't know what they want. They do want to be entertained and be shown a good movie. And judging by the history of ever, fanboys clearly don't know what the hell they want and nitpick things to an absolute nauseating death, so I stopped listening to those minds because we're the most vocal. It's Batman; it's Superman and there's going to be more movies to stack on this one. I know what I want, though and I'm glad they are developing this thing from movie to movie and Superman is no exception. I can't wait to see where we end up.



Without a shadow of a doubt, I believe we'll get there. Come on people, as of March, we'll only be 2 movies in. Lets ride this wave. It's just begun.

If Batman is the JL leader its one thing. If Snyder goes with having Batman and Superman co-leaders I think there needs to be a personality duality. Batman's darker nature countered by Superman's lighter nature. Its why a contrast, more than we've seen in the trailers, should be a part of BvS.

 

[Herolee10]

I think it's pretty cool to see a Superman with a real command presence. In that scene with Batman where he warns him, Superman is walking right up to the line but I think it's fair to say that he avoids being an outright bully; he's just delivering a very stern message. But there are also hints here and there that there may be something weird going on with Superman also. It's going to be fascinating to see what the actual story is.

If anything, perhaps Superman (to some degree) appreciates the lives that Batman has saved from his activities, which is why Superman doesn't downright apprehend him right then and there and gives him one warning to go off by.

If Batman was an extreme terrorist or something like the Joker, then I think Superman wouldn't have bothered letting him off the hook once and turn him over to the authorities.

 

[Herolee10]

Hmmm... Wants everything to go his way? Forgive but this sounds more personal than fictional. ¿Yes? Supes has never been that kind of character.

lol; maybe that was a poor way to describe it. But I'm only going off of the material that I've mentioned in my previous posts. What I took from the characterization was that he wasn't really offering Lois a lot of choices in how they could approach their relationship together.

 

[BH/HHH]

I assume he was talking BvS. I hope so. The stoic brooding Superman of MOS proved polarizing and making that his nature in DOJ would be a huge mistake IMO. Snyder needs to lighten the character a bit. Make him a nicer guy a la CA. And in this film. Not in JL.

He wasn't brooding in MOS. he was conflicted in the early part of the film yet as soon as he figured out his past he was happy. Not the scene with Ma Kent, he tells her he's found his people and he's happy. Next thing you know there's an alien invasion by the guy his Father told him in the scout ship had attempted a coup on Krypton. From that point on he had to get serious as did everyone in the film, yet there were still lighter moments with Lois because she believed in him and he couldn't help but be that way around her.

He's not going to then be all smiles when fighting Kryptonian's and stopping world engines. By the films finale when he joins the Daily Planet he's back to been happy, he's saved the world, he's working at the Daily Planet and he's looking at the woman he's clearly fallen in love with.

Then you hit Batman v Superman and now the Government don't trust him, there's a viral ante trying to kill him and a beloved billionaire who doesn't like him. I think for those reasons he isn't gonna smile quite so much. They aren't going to release promotional material of him smiling from ear to ear (bar a pen image of Clark) when the film is serious business.

People really have to let go of this all smiling Superman it's from a different era and I think people firget that Chris Reeve's character didn't smile quite so much when things got serious. Also if you read stuff like John Byrne's Superman it watch Superman the Animated Series/JL/JLU you can see he wasn't all smiles there either.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

That's.... that's the cover image they chose to go with?

WtF is with the images WB picks! My gawd does no one at the studio have a say in their posters and covers? Does Henry not get to speak up and say "I LOOK LIKE CRAP YOUR NOT USING THAT ONE!"

 

[The Shield]

He wasn't brooding in MOS. he was conflicted in the early part of the film yet as soon as he figured out his past he was happy. Not the scene with Ma Kent, he tells her he's found his people and he's happy. Next thing you know there's an alien invasion by the guy his Father told him in the scout ship had attempted a coup on Krypton. From that point on he had to get serious as did everyone in the film, yet there were still lighter moments with Lois because she believed in him and he couldn't help but be that way around her.

He's not going to then be all smiles when fighting Kryptonian's and stopping world engines. By the films finale when he joins the Daily Planet he's back to been happy, he's saved the world, he's working at the Daily Planet and he's looking at the woman he's clearly fallen in love with.

Then you hit Batman v Superman and now the Government don't trust him, there's a viral ante trying to kill him and a beloved billionaire who doesn't like him. I think for those reasons he isn't gonna smile quite so much. They aren't going to release promotional material of him smiling from ear to ear (bar a pen image of Clark) when the film is serious business.

People really have to let go of this all smiling Superman it's from a different era and I think people firget that Chris Reeve's character didn't smile quite so much when things got serious. Also if you read stuff like John Byrne's Superman it watch Superman the Animated Series/JL/JLU you can see he wasn't all smiles there either.

Man great post! People seem to forget that all that smiling was done during a time when they were trying to lighten the comic books up. It was across the board in DC. I think people are so used to seeing pictures of Superman smiling but forget that's mostly for kids bedroom merchandise, kids clothes, and so on. And that's not just him.Even Batman is smiling just as much in all that stuff.

People don't realize that they don't actually see that in the comics as much. He smiles when the situation calls for it just like any other positive superhero. But gets serious when it's time to get physical which is what this character does more than anything. He's throws his fists... A lot. And there's not a whole lot of smiling going on.

If people would pick up some comics from the past 30 years, they'll see that his smiling is pretty on par with his character written since Henry has taken over the roll.

 

[The Shield]

WtF is with the images WB picks! My gawd does no one at the studio have a say in their posters and covers? Does Henry not get to speak up and say "I LOOK LIKE CRAP YOUR NOT USING THAT ONE!"

I promise you I've been saying this exact same thing to friend of mine! Lol

 

[Tobias]

The 3rd cover is by Jim Lee. That artwork makes the cover the best of the three.​

 

[Baneis8feettall]

WB wants people to focus on movie and not Cavill's stupidly handsome face i think.

 

[sportjames23]

This is one time Iam with the negative reaction crowd. That shot of Superman is suboptimal indeed. Maybe I would be less harsh if the coloring was different, but man is the shading making him look sickly. And he doesn't look like that really in the other promotional material or in the shots from the trailers.

Yeah, it makes him look kinda bizarre...oh, my. Nah, couldn't be. t:

 

[sportjames23]

Superman looks awfully pale in that cover image.

Almost white.

How bizarre...

I see I'm not the only one.

 

[BH/HHH]

Man great post! People seem to forget that all that smiling was done during a time when they were trying to lighten the comic books up. It was across the board in DC. I think people are so used to seeing pictures of Superman smiling but forget that's mostly for kids bedroom merchandise, kids clothes, and so on. And that's not just him.Even Batman is smiling just as much in all that stuff.

People don't realize that they don't actually see that in the comics as much. He smiles when the situation calls for it just like any other positive superhero. But gets serious when it's time to get physical which is what this character does more than anything. He's throws his fists... A lot. And there's not a whole lot of smiling going on.

If people would pick up some comics from the past 30 years, they'll see that his smiling is pretty on par with his character written since Henry has taken over the roll.

Thanks Shield t:

Yours is a great post too my friend spot on

 

[Tobias]

Man great post! People seem to forget that all that smiling was done during a time when they were trying to lighten the comic books up. It was across the board in DC. I think people are so used to seeing pictures of Superman smiling but forget that's mostly for kids bedroom merchandise, kids clothes, and so on. And that's not just him.Even Batman is smiling just as much in all that stuff.

People don't realize that they don't actually see that in the comics as much. He smiles when the situation calls for it just like any other positive superhero. But gets serious when it's time to get physical which is what this character does more than anything. He's throws his fists... A lot. And there's not a whole lot of smiling going on.

If people would pick up some comics from the past 30 years, they'll see that his smiling is pretty on par with his character written since Henry has taken over the roll.

Wanting a layered character in Superman should not be reduced to or misconstrued as wanting him to smile.

There is Clark Kent reporter, Superman world hero, Kal-El last son/adopted son.

Plenty of layers to peel away. And yes, have him have fun using his powers once in a while.

 

[BH/HHH]

He had layers in Man of Steel, we saw Clark at different points in his childhood, we saw a Clark that was unsu of his place in the world, the. We got Clark when he discovered where he came from, when Jor El calls him Kal, he smiles and asks if that's his name. When he learns to fly he is ecstatic, enjoying every moment. Then Zod invades and he has to get serious, so he does. He's hardly gonna be laughing at everything he does when he's trying to stop an alien invasion. Yet despite that we still get moments of flirtation with Lois Lane where he is happy and he even has a little joke with her, you better stand back, maybe a little bit more and off he goes to save the world. He even has a little fun with the army, he toys with Professor Hamilton about what is in his pocket, he has a moment with Swanwick when he crashes the drone pilot. Etc etc.

We got many layers and in Batman v Superman we appear to be seeing those layers again. Just because he's not smiling in the images were seeing does not mean he won't have layers which include moments when he is happy. We even have a pic of a clearly smiling Clark Kent yet people seem to be ignoring that.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Wanting a layered character in Superman should not be reduced to or misconstrued as wanting him to smile.

There is Clark Kent reporter, Superman world hero, Kal-El last son/adopted son.

Plenty of layers to peel away. And yes, have him have fun using his powers once in a while.

You mean like the joy seen on his face during his first flight in MOS, illustrating how finally after decades of wondering his true origin that learning about his roots has not actually separated him from life on Earth but has strengthened that bond with the life of this planet and opened up the world to him as to no other human, and all this was done through visuals only after the Jor-el VO ends?


Do you mean something like that?

 

[Tobias]

Overall Superman came across as stoic in MOS. Henry was written and directed that way. It was a general sense of the character many got from the film.

I want audiences to embrace the character and get excited over him. Get past the Superman is boring mantra/ MOS I don't feel achieved that. Maybe BvS can.

 

[BH/HHH]

Totally disagree mate, he had many layers. He wasn't boring at all. He was stoic when he needed to be not all the time.

 

[Angel0fDeath]

Not boring at all. I've stated this before, but I wasn't such a big fan of Superman. Man of Steel made me a fan. You know how he can be boring ? If they made him too perfect, smiling all the time and pretty much invincible.

 

[BH/HHH]

Not boring at all. I've stated this before, but I wasn't such a big fan of Superman. Man of Steel made me a fan. You know how he can be boring ? If they made him too perfect, smiling all the time and pretty much invincible.

 

[rogbngp]

I won't lie that I would have enjoyed MoS more if 1) a bit more attention had been given to character development, 2) the characters were rendered a bit warmer and more relatable, 3) color wasn't desaturated/blue-gray tinged. I would have. Those to me are things that would have made the film more enjoyable for me personally.

But that said, I'm also an apologist for why those things weren't done. I personally loved the world-building in MoS same as I do for the Fellowship of the Ring (both book and film). There are some very coherent and detailed symbolic mythic and archetypal themes that I'm positive are deliberately woven throughout this film,* that sets up BvS and the the story arcs beyond into the JL. MoS launches a very grand vision: it sets the stage for superheroes as myths and archetypes being relocated into our modern real world--and in order to break free from the past mold for Superman, it is a tense and gritty world of difficult choices. We see Superman as an exemplar of that in this film. To my eye, Superman is also reframed in this film to start (i.e., the character is for sure going to grow and evolve in subsequent films) more as a lost and wandering soul in the tradition of a Greek demigod hero. It is not a world of good feels.

In order to achieve that Snyder sacrificed telling a story that could have been more of an intimate, in-depth character study filled with warmth and relatabilty (such as Captain America: The First Avenger, let's say). Tonally it would have been difficult, although not at all impossible. But length-wise, though, to do that would have given us a 3+ hour movie, i.e., if the other elements I just mentioned are to remain intact. And overall I'm glad those themes are there--if one or the other has to be sacrificed I'd rather keep the world-building and mythic theme elements. The broader and deeper agenda for this approach to storytelling of superhero myths is very satisfying to me. I'm so glad that direction was taken.

So that takes care of (1) and (2) for me. YMMV, obviously--and clearly, roughly about half of the fan base doesn't like it (or bitterly hates it). If you don't like it, I'm probably not going to change your mind. I can only tell you why I like it and hope that you can see how it could be appreciated that way.

For (3) above... I think the color palette is probably intended to emphasize that Superman, as an archetype, is now being reborn into a more serious world endued with weighty themes and consequences to actions, where perfect choices often won't be available, i.e., that is morally gray. So I can appreciate the film conceptually that way. It doesn't ruin my experience of the film. But do I like it aesthetically? Not at all. And I actually don't see it as necessary, either. I do one day hope to see a version of MoS with the color's corrected in order to compare, in any event.

Anyway, when I watch the film now my focus is on appreciating how it reinvents the Superman myth. But I still find that there is a surprising amount of personal character development to be seen for Superman, and that he and other characters do have some warmth and relatability to them. It just gets kind of overshadowed by the weightier thematic stuff and the color desaturation. I guess what I'm saying is that if Snyder had found a way to keep everything that I love about this film conceptually, and render it a bit warmer way that personalized the characters more, I would love it even more. But even as it is, with the admitted flaws it has I still 95% love what is there.

*We even have a Joseph Campbell quote literally woven into Superman's iconic "S" insignia!

 

[Tobias]

I won't lie that I would have enjoyed MoS more if 1) a bit more attention had been given to character development, 2) the characters were rendered a bit warmer and more relatable, 3) color wasn't desaturated/blue-gray tinged. I would have. Those to me are things that would have made the film more enjoyable for me personally.

But that said, I'm also an apologist for why those things weren't done. I personally loved the world-building in MoS same as I do for the Fellowship of the Ring (both book and film). There are some very coherent and detailed symbolic mythic and archetypal themes that I'm positive are deliberately woven throughout this film, that sets up BvS and the the story arcs beyond into the JL. MoS launches a very grand vision: it sets the stage for superheroes as myths and archetypes being relocated into our modern real world--and in order to break free from the past mold for Superman, it is a tense and gritty world of difficult choices. We see Superman as an exemplar of that in this film. To my eye, Superman is also reframed in this film to start (i.e., the character is for sure going to grow and evolve in subsequent films) more as a lost and wandering soul in the tradition of a Greek demigod hero. It is not a world of good feels.

In order to achieve that Snyder sacrificed telling a story that could have been more of an intimate, in-depth character study filled with warmth and relatabilty (such as Captain America: The First Avenger, let's say). Tonally it would have been difficult, although not at all impossible. But length-wise, though, to do that would have given us a 3+ hour movie, i.e., if the other elements I just mentioned are to remain intact. And overall I'm glad those themes are there--if one or the other has to be sacrificed I'd rather keep the world-building and mythic theme elements. The broader and deeper agenda for this approach to storytelling of superhero myths is very satisfying to me. I'm so glad that direction was taken.

So that takes care of (1) and (2) for me. YMMV, obviously--and clearly, roughly about half of the fan base doesn't like it (or bitterly hates it). If you don't like it, I'm probably not going to change your mind. I can only tell you why I like it and hope that you can see how it could be appreciated that way.

For (3) above... I think the color palette is probably intended to emphasize that Superman is now in a more serious, world with weighty themes and consequences to actions, where perfect choices often won't be available, i.e., that is morally gray. So I can appreciate the film conceptually that way. It doesn't ruin my experience of the film. But do I like it aesthetically? Not at all. And I actually don't see it as necessary, either. I do one day hope to see a version of MoS with the color's corrected in order to compare, anyway.

Anyway, when I watch the film now my focus is on appreciating how it reinvents the Superman myth. But I still find that there is a surprising amount of personal character development to be seen for Superman, and that he and other characters do have some warmth and relatability to them. It just gets kind of overshadowed by the weightier thematic stuff and the color desaturation. I guess what I'm saying is that if Snyder had found a way to keep everything that I love about this film conceptually, and render it a bit warmer way that personalized the characters more, I would love it even more. But even as it is, with the admitted flaws it has I still 95% love what is there.

Well stated. I don't totally agree but good points.

The color palette is an issue for me. Not that they have to go bright but go lighter. The dark colors were an issue in SR for me. Maybe my eyes aren't as good as others, but in the cave scene from SR with Superman crawling I had a hard time making it out. Things were too dark. Take a snap of that scene and lighten it up some and wow. You see things in the scene you hadn't before.