Hickman's "Avengers"

[THANOSRULES]

I've never had a huge issue with lineup there...

 

[runawayboulder]

I just read some preview pages for Bendy's last Avengers arc and Wonder Man comes back. Ugh, one more ass-raping for the road.....

Hopefully Hickman restores some luster to these characters.

 

[THANOSRULES]

the stuff in the marvel NOW thread looks great..epic in scale with solid lineups

 

[CConn]

I'm going to try Hickman's Avengers, but honestly what I'm hearing about it doesn't excite me much.

I mean, my idea of what an Avengers book "should be" is kind of like what The Ultimates is - without the blatant mischaracterization and out of this world events - in that, there's consistently a strong focus on that core team of Cap, Iron Man and Thor, and everyone else just kind of rotates around them.

The idea that Hickman is going to spend more time delving into little known characters is a bit disheartening - and it's the major reason I was never able to enjoy Bendis' NA/Avengers.

 

[KangConquers]

I'm going to try Hickman's Avengers, but honestly what I'm hearing about it doesn't excite me much.

I mean, my idea of what an Avengers book "should be" is kind of like what The Ultimates is - without the blatant mischaracterization and out of this world events - in that, there's consistently a strong focus on that core team of Cap, Iron Man and Thor, and everyone else just kind of rotates around them.

The idea that Hickman is going to spend more time delving into little known characters is a bit disheartening - and it's the major reason I was never able to enjoy Bendis' NA/Avengers.

Exploration of minor characters has been a cornerstone of the Avengers. The first 100 issues of Avengers focus primarily on the personal stories of The Pyms, The Maximoff twins, and Vision, not on the big 3.

 

[CConn]

I wouldn't call the Pyms, the Maximoffs and Vision minor characters in the Avengers. They're the core of the team. They're what's made every incarnation of the Avengers compelling and worthwhile.

People like Spider-Woman, The Sentry, Cannonball and Sunspot...are not. To say the least.

 

[KangConquers]

I wouldn't call the Pyms, the Maximoffs and Vision minor characters in the Avengers. They're the core of the team. They're what's made every incarnation of the Avengers compelling and worthwhile.

People like Spider-Woman, The Sentry, Cannonball and Sunspot...are not. To say the least.

That's true, but when they started writing the Avengers? It was used as a shelter for failed solo characters, reformed villains, and other c-listers. Those characters wound up finding identity on the team, but none of the Avengers first 20 or so members had any sort of success outside of that comic, save Cap, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man and Black Panther.

I guess I'm saying, give the minor characters a chance.

 

[CConn]

I already said I was giving it a chance.

 

[KangConquers]

I already said I was giving it a chance.

Didn't read that way to me. My bad.

 

[THANOSRULES]

I wouldn't call the Pyms, the Maximoffs and Vision minor characters in the Avengers. They're the core of the team. They're what's made every incarnation of the Avengers compelling and worthwhile.

People like Spider-Woman, The Sentry, Cannonball and Sunspot...are not. To say the least.

I totally agree with this post which is why bendis failed

 

[KangConquers]

I totally agree with this post which is why bendis failed

Bendis didn't fail from a commercial standpoint. He made the Avengers books more popular than they had ever been.

My point was that the Avengers has never just centered on the big 3. It's been about the lesser characters, and new recruits.

At various points in the team's history, characters like Mantis, Monica Rambeau, Doctor Druid, and the Black Knight took center stage. While I like all of those characters (except for Doctor Druid, who's just terrible) they weren't the big 3, nor were they big characters.

It's just about handling new characters properly. People talk about Avengers purity, or "real" Avengers members, but forget that the Avengers were always recruiting from the Invaders, the Defenders, The New Mutants, The Eternals, various random solo character, supporting characters etc.

A "real" Avengers book puts a lot of focus on the smaller characters.

 

[runawayboulder]

Would Bendis' Avengers been as popular without Wolverine and Spider-Man? I doubt it.

 

[CConn]

It depends on who the little known characters are.

I think I can pretty safely say most people here are into little known characters, judging by the praise we all give Avengers Academy, Young Avengers, Thunderbolts, etc., etc.

But the real problem with Bendis' Avengers - and my concern with Hickman's - is their choice of little known characters. Spider-Woman and Sentry sucked. And up until this point, Cannonball and Sunspot haven't been written anywhere near we'll enough to really hold my interest in a book.

Now, could he change that and write really intriguing stories and turn them into really compelling characters? Sure. I'm not saying he can't. But at the same time, why not just pull from the LEGIONS of really awesome little known characters who are already rather established - or, yknow, choose the focus on the classic Avengers lineup (something that hasn't been done in a good decade) instead of having to build up these other guys from scratch?

That's all my point, and my overall concern is. But, at the same time, I'll definitely give him a few issues to see where he goes with it.

 

[KangConquers]

In comics there are no bad characters, only bad writers.

 

[THANOSRULES]

Bendis didn't fail from a commercial standpoint. He made the Avengers books more popular than they had ever been.

My point was that the Avengers has never just centered on the big 3. It's been about the lesser characters, and new recruits.

At various points in the team's history, characters like Mantis, Monica Rambeau, Doctor Druid, and the Black Knight took center stage. While I like all of those characters (except for Doctor Druid, who's just terrible) they weren't the big 3, nor were they big characters.

It's just about handling new characters properly. People talk about Avengers purity, or "real" Avengers members, but forget that the Avengers were always recruiting from the Invaders, the Defenders, The New Mutants, The Eternals, various random solo character, supporting characters etc.

A "real" Avengers book puts a lot of focus on the smaller characters.

I'm not going to disagree with ur point about bendis.

I bounce back between defending bendis and roasting him.

I do wonder if u put wolverine..spidey..cap..iron man..on the same team, promo the heck out of it and get top shelf art like finch..man Dr.Seuss could have wrote the thing and it would have sold.

Not to mention the book has nowhere near the sales as it did a few yrs ago during his early run

Yet he left avengers in better shape than he found it...and thanks to the movie the big picture of the avengers franchise is in phenomenal shape...even if the comic is not

 

[KangConquers]

I'm not going to disagree with ur point about bendis.

I bounce back between defending bendis and roasting him.

I do wonder if u put wolverine..spidey..cap..iron man..on the same team, promo the heck out of it and get top shelf art like finch..man Dr.Seuss could have wrote the thing and it would have sold.

Not to mention the book has nowhere near the sales as it did a few yrs ago during his early run

Yet he left avengers in better shape than he found it...and thanks to the movie the big picture of the avengers franchise is in phenomenal shape...even if the comic is not

I think he's a miserable writer, but I also think his success with the books, combined with the initial success of the Ultimates last decade paved the way for a $1.5 B grossing Avengers film.

Basically, adding Spider-Man and Wolverine to the team made people care who didn't care about the Avengers before, and served as kind of a gateway into the Avengers world for Spider-Man and X-Men fans.

He's still a terrible writer, who violates characters he doesn't care for (Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Kang, Wonder Man) and pushes the characters he loves down our throats (Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, The Hood).

 

[bored]

See, all writers do that to a degree (look at Hickman adding Eden Fesi to the new line-up), but Bendis just couldn't do it WELL. Wolverine has played no interesting role on the team since he joined, and it generally takes other writers to show Spider-Man as a valuable member. Luke Cage aside, Bendis has a bad habit of shoving those extra characters to the background.

Even the classic writers could feature their pet characters while still letting the bigger Avengers play a strong role. Kurt Busiek spent much of his run showing Justice, Silverclaw and Triathlon as major members of the team (and wrote them very well), but still gave time to make sure big names like Thor still got characterization, and also developed classic Avengers that didn't always carry their own books. Bendis just can't handle large ensembles like that in the way a team book like this needs.

 

[THANOSRULES]

See, all writers do that to a degree (look at Hickman adding Eden Fesi to the new line-up), but Bendis just couldn't do it WELL. Wolverine has played no interesting role on the team since he joined, and it generally takes other writers to show Spider-Man as a valuable member. Luke Cage aside, Bendis has a bad habit of shoving those extra characters to the background.

Even the classic writers could feature their pet characters while still letting the bigger Avengers play a strong role. Kurt Busiek spent much of his run showing Justice, Silverclaw and Triathlon as major members of the team (and wrote them very well), but still gave time to make sure big names like Thor still got characterization, and also developed classic Avengers that didn't always carry their own books. Bendis just can't handle large ensembles like that in the way a team book like this needs.

-No problems with Hickman bringing anything secret warriors into this book..agreed that's status quo and honestly...I expect it.

-agreed about wolverine,disagree..mildly with spidey, bendis did fine with him, and has always excelled with him..problem was there were no good ARCS (outside the raft, which was an awesome spidey avenger arc)

-disagree with your Busiek inclusion of Justice and..although you didnt mention it firestar...Busiek did good with those two and they worked in his run and were a strong point...not so much with silver claw and triatholon like u mentioned overrall agree with what you are getting at though..

-Fringe characters are what define good avengers run. Bottom line is you can't do much with major characters..and the lesser ones without viable ongoings have defined runs.

 

[Thwip!]

-No problems with Hickman bringing anything secret warriors into this book..agreed that's status quo and honestly...I expect it.

-agreed about wolverine,disagree..mildly with spidey, bendis did fine with him, and has always excelled with him..problem was there were no good ARCS (outside the raft, which was an awesome spidey avenger arc)

-disagree with your Busiek inclusion of Justice and..although you didnt mention it firestar...Busiek did good with those two and they worked in his run and were a strong point...not so much with silver claw and triatholon like u mentioned overrall agree with what you are getting at though..

-Fringe characters are what define good avengers run. Bottom line is you can't do much with major characters..and the lesser ones without viable ongoings have defined runs.

I agree, i've always found some of Bendis' best work to be his Spidey work...though i wish he would do better when writing Spidey as an avenger, apart from raft as you said cos thats awesome

 

[runawayboulder]

I agree, i've always found some of Bendis' best work to be his Spidey work...though i wish he would do better when writing Spidey as an avenger, apart from raft as you said cos thats awesome

You're referring to his Ultimate Spider-Man work which is way different than the regular Spider-Man, it's an alternate universe where the character was not bound by years of continuity. That's why there's a difference than that Spider-Man and the one in New Avengers.

 

[bored]

-No problems with Hickman bringing anything secret warriors into this book..agreed that's status quo and honestly...I expect it.

-agreed about wolverine,disagree..mildly with spidey, bendis did fine with him, and has always excelled with him..problem was there were no good ARCS (outside the raft, which was an awesome spidey avenger arc)

-disagree with your Busiek inclusion of Justice and..although you didnt mention it firestar...Busiek did good with those two and they worked in his run and were a strong point...not so much with silver claw and triatholon like u mentioned overrall agree with what you are getting at though..

-Fringe characters are what define good avengers run. Bottom line is you can't do much with major characters..and the lesser ones without viable ongoings have defined runs.

We're not really disagreeing on most things. I just didn't think Bendis handled it well. Reread my post, I said I liked what Busiek did with those characters (even Silverclaw).

 

[Thwip!]

You're referring to his Ultimate Spider-Man work which is way different than the regular Spider-Man, it's an alternate universe where the character was not bound by years of continuity. That's why there's a difference than that Spider-Man and the one in New Avengers.

Well I'm not talking about the continuity of Bendis' writing in terms of story and the characters, I was more commenting on how I feel he writes a better Spidey when he's solo than he does when he's an avenger, regardless of universe. It's the writing quality that's my issue. Obviously I don't expect his avengers Spidey to be the same as Ultimate Spidey, BUT I do expect him to be as well written

 

[Specter313]

New team member:

Spoiler

 

[Thwip!]

new team member:

Spoiler

haha deadpool style

 

[runawayboulder]

Well I'm not talking about the continuity of Bendis' writing in terms of story and the characters, I was more commenting on how I feel he writes a better Spidey when he's solo than he does when he's an avenger, regardless of universe. It's the writing quality that's my issue. Obviously I don't expect his avengers Spidey to be the same as Ultimate Spidey, BUT I do expect him to be as well written

You're comparing apples and oranges .