How can Raimi prevent this film from becoming X-Men: The Last Stand?

[Wams]

How can Raimi prevent this film from becoming X-Men: The Last Stand?

What was wrong with "The last stand?

 

[I Am The Knight]

SM3 is so much better than X3, IMO.

 

[Killing Joke926]

Too late to prevent the worst; it has already begun with SpiderMan 3. How do I know? X-Men is going backwards by doing a prologue for Wolverine; best way to avoid future sequels, but still no cigar.

 

[lordofthenerds]

Why? Because it demonstrates the ridiculous irony that ppl actually thought SM3 was sooo much better than X3?

This thread was made before SM3's release.

 

[Killing Joke926]

This thread was made before SM3's release.

Really? Go figure.

 

[Catman]

This thread was made before SM3's release.

The good ol' days.

 

[StylishHokie21]

What was wrong with "The last stand?

It sucked?

 

[hammerhedd11]

SM3 is so much better than X3, IMO.

X3 wishes it was as good as SM3!

 

[Killing Joke926]

X3 wishes it was as good as SM3!

What's the point? They both sucked.

 

[hammerhedd11]

What's the point? They both sucked.

Well....uhh...y'see...



I liked spiderman 3

 

[UltimateJustin]

Well....uhh...y'see...



I liked spiderman 3

Dang, I liked both.

*slips on banana peel, lands head first in bucket*

 

[DeathRaven]

Well....uhh...y'see...



I liked spiderman 3

Same here, X3 just felt cheaper and the story was to odd for me. But to me even if S3 was not the best of the bunch it still kept in tone with the others.

 

[Robin91939]

The only problem with X3: The Last Stand, to me, was the tone. I never got the feel that this "final battle" carried the weight that it should have. Yeah, people died during it, mutants were cured, etc. But I would have liked to have seen one of the character deaths happen here rather than the two HUGE ones happen in the beginning and middle of the film.

Also, continuity wise (comics and films) it was WRONG to have Logan be the one to "save" Jean. Sure he was able to withstand her power to get to her....but had Scott lived, her love for him would have allowed Jean to subdue the Phoenix long enough for him to reach her. As Logan said in X2: X-Men United, "She made a choice...it was you". She loved Scott Summers not Logan and the climax should have seen Logan stepping aside for Scott as he suggested at the end of the second film. Scott could then have killed the Phoenix, or they both could have died in a huge blast of power...allowing them to both be together in the end. I really didn't like the decision to kill Cyclops off so early, I don't care about studio politics, I don't care about "scheduling conflicts" he should have been in the climax.

Other than these two, albeit major, problems, the film was enjoyable. It still is with them but I just know: When I watch the end of movie two and see the epic ending Bryan Singer gave us and the set up for the final installment in a truly great franchise, I have to think that Brett Ratner dropped the ball in meeting or coming close to my expectations. X3 could/should have been a grand slam, instead it was a solid base hit.


Spider-man 3 can be described the same way. It was as bad of a movie as they possibly could have made with the story they were using....and it was still a good movie. They played the symbiote for laughs, when the trailers presented it as a threat to "everything he holds dear". Venom didn't get a name, or any true face time or dialogue. Sandman was solid (figuratively speaking). Harry was great, though I would have loved a more Goblinesque costume, and I didn't mind Gwen or MJ in this film. The problem was that the film should have ended in the belltower. The subway battle could have been the climax of this film if rewritten to be so. End the film with Harry out of the way, thought to be dead, and Sandman also thought to be dead. Give Eddie the symbiote and have Venom eat the camera and go to credits. Peter would think his life is fine and then BAM...Spider-man 4 is HUGE and epic, with enough time to breathe.

This way, Sandman and Venom wouldn't need a forced, contrived, team up and it could be made more believable. Venom could become a larger threat to Peter's personal life, etc. We could have three villains (Sandman, Green Goblin and Venom) last over the period of the two films that would act as Part one and two of the the series' climax.

-R

 

[Blader5489]

Venom didn't get a name, or any true face time or dialogue.

I've seen this comment a lot, but it seems that a lot of people are forgetting that Venom isn't Venom, he's Eddie--they aren't two separate characters. Venom only appears in the third act of the film because that's when Eddie hits rock bottom. It's a kind of metaphor for Eddie's descent into villainy, like Marko's transformation into the giant Sandman.

I kind of know what you mean about how the black suit wasn't presented as the major threat it was hyped to be, though I think people focus too much on the dancing scenes and overlook the fact that the black suit DID do cause a lot of harm. Even so, I do wish they had kept in the scene of black suit Spidey beating the crap out of some criminals.

Give Eddie the symbiote and have Venom eat the camera and go to credits. Peter would think his life is fine and then BAM...Spider-man 4 is HUGE and epic, with enough time to breathe.

I think they tried that, but there was no satisfying point in which the film could be separated into two. At the point where Eddie becomes Venom, the entire story is left unresolved. Going by your scenario, Sandman and Harry are "dead" but have been given no actual closure. Peter's arc would also be left completely unresolved by that point. And honestly, cutting the film in two at that juncture kills a lot of the momentum that was being built up.

Another problem with splitting SM3 into two separate movies is that there was no guarantee anyone would return for a fourth movie (since they were only contractually obligated for three). Trying to force the cast into signing on for another film would have been a nightmare for the studio.

 

[Blader5489]

Oh, and as for X3, I personally thought it was a alright enough movie. The tone, as you mentioned, was completely different though. Singer's films were much more cerebral, while Ratner's direction was far less subtle (to say the least). So because of that and the dangling plot threads at the end, X3 wasn't a very satisfying conclusion to the X-Men trilogy.

Contrast that to Spider-Man 3, which (despite it's faults) kept the same tone as the previous movies and wrapped up all of the trilogy's loose ends. I like X3 just fine, but I thought SM3 was just more satisfying on both it's own merits and it's sense of closure for the trilogy.

 

[Robin91939]

Had they been able to resign the actors for a fourth installment, then there really would be no problem with leaving story threads unresolved.

That's the point of a "to be continued". Because, uh, they'll be continued and the story will be resolved in the continuation.

Have the film be reworked a little bit, add a couple of action beats, beef up the Sandman vs black suited Spider-man fight in the subway...make that the big finale battle for this picture. Then end it with Harry and Peter fighting and Peter going to the bell tower. That way, there's plenty more time to beef up the Brock character, more time to develop Sandman's daughter, and more time to build Gwen Stacey's character. In the second part of the film there could be more action and the action would mean a lot because the characters had a film to be fleshed out.

This, of course is the ideal way for it to play out. A four and a half to five hour film for this epic story of the black suit and the closure of the death of Uncle Ben.

If the film went to the credits with Venom eating the camera the momentum would not have died, the hype for film 4 would have been GIGANTIC without a doubt. Think Smith laying next to Neo at the end of The Matrix Reloaded x 1,000,000. Who cares if Sandman is thought to be dead? Who cares if Harry is thought to be dead and the hero's arc hasn't been fully complete?

Peter would have come half way. He would have recognized the error of his ways and gotten rid of the suit. The second have of the story is redemption, which is what film four would be all about.

-R

 

[Stevens25]

Personally,I thought that when we see Spider-man wearing the black suit then he was nasty and sinister. When he put the suit on to go after Sandman,I saw the change I was expecting. He pretty much tells Eddie to "screw off," and then when he finally finds Sandman he really shows that anger and to be honest,he was even a little scary(Lord knows I wouldn't want to piss off symbiote Spider-man). He showed no mercy and I love that scene after the fight when he yells at his landlord too. That's what I was expecting. HOWEVER,when Peter is wearing the suit(not as Spidey)then that's when it gets comical. With the possible exception of when he threw that bomb at Harry's face,he didn't seem that threatening. So,Black suit Spider-man=awesome. Peter wearing the black suit=goofy.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Personally,I thought that when we see Spider-man wearing the black suit then he was nasty and sinister. When he put the suit on to go after Sandman,I saw the change I was expecting. He pretty much tells Eddie to "screw off," and then when he finally finds Sandman he really shows that anger and to be honest,he was even a little scary(Lord knows I wouldn't want to piss off symbiote Spider-man). He showed no mercy and I love that scene after the fight when he yells at his landlord too. That's what I was expecting. HOWEVER,when Peter is wearing the suit(not as Spidey)then that's when it gets comical. With the possible exception of when he threw that bomb at Harry's face,he didn't seem that threatening. So,Black suit Spider-man=awesome. Peter wearing the black suit=goofy.

Well, I loved everything about Symbiote Spider-Man and Symbiote Peter in this film. Seeing Peter do things that he wouldn't normally do such as the Jazz club scene and the Saturday night fever walk down the street just makes it even more interesting. It also shows how the Symbiote suit is changing Peter's personality and how it affects others around him such as MJ, Mr. Ditkovitch, etc. That's just how I feel about it though.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

If the film went to the credits with Venom eating the camera the momentum would not have died, the hype for film 4 would have been GIGANTIC without a doubt. Think Smith laying next to Neo at the end of The Matrix Reloaded x 1,000,000. Who cares if Sandman is thought to be dead? Who cares if Harry is thought to be dead and the hero's arc hasn't been fully complete?

I completly agree with this. After thinking about how I would have made this film, I would have done some things different. The Sandman storyline could've taken the same approach only in the end, Sandman is about to kill Spider-Man(there's a picture floating around the internet with his hand in the air with huge spikes on it) when his daughter and wife come and tell him it's the wrong thing to do. He agrees then drifts away.

The Harry storyline should have been flopped around. Instead of getting amnesia in the beggining, he should have got it in the end. He battles Peter/Spider-Man throughout the film much like they did in the movie. Then at the end, symbiote Spider-Man knocks him unconscious(he gets amnesia here). Peter then realizes what he's done and goes to the bell tower where a distraught Brock awaits. Peter gets rid of the suit and it goes to Brock. We then see Venom lash forward towards the camera. End credits.

An ending like that would leave so many questions unanswered. Where's Sandman? Is Harry alive? What's Venom going to do? The hype for SM4 would've been off the charts. This is just my opinion and how I would have like to have seen it done.

 

[anrrd_2]

I completly agree with this. After thinking about how I would have made this film, I would have done some things different. The Sandman storyline could've taken the same approach only in the end, Sandman is about to kill Spider-Man(there's a picture floating around the internet with his hand in the air with huge spikes on it) when his daughter and wife come and tell him it's the wrong thing to do. He agree's then drifts away.

The Harry storyline should have been flopped around. Instead of getting amnesia in the beggining, he should have got it in the end. He battles Peter/Spider-Man throughout the film much like they did in the movie. Then at the end, symbiote Spider-Man knocks him unconscious(he gets amnesia here). Peter then realizes what he's done and goes to the bell tower where a distraught Brock awaits. Peter gets rid of the suit and it goes to Brock. We then see Venom lash forward towards the camera. End credits.

An ending like that would leave so many questions unanswered. Where's Sandman? Is Harry alive? What's Venom going to do? The hype for SM4 would've been off the charts. This is just my opinion and how I would have like to have seen it done.

i agree with you 100%....i also think it would have been a good idea to make peter look alittle less like little nicky

Spoiler

 

[Blader5489]

An ending like that would leave so many questions unanswered.

Which isn't a good thing. Even films like The Matrix Reloaded or Kill Bill Vol. 1 had some sense of closure to their stories. The big ideas of those movies (Humans vs. Machines and the Bride's vengeance) were left open for the sequels, but the subplots of Reloaded were resolved within Reloaded; the same goes for Kill Bill 1. Hell, Spider-Man 2 did the same thing, and resolved it's own plot threads while leaving the big one (Harry and the Goblin legacy) dangling for the sequel.

What you and Robin are suggesting would have left Spider-Man 3 completely unresolved, which is irresponsible filmmaking. You don't string your audience along for 3 years, leave them with absolutely no ending, and ask them to wait some more. Besides, Venom isn't a strong enough character to hold a movie of his own; he is just one part of Eddie's character arc. Kind of like how you can't do a whole movie of black suit Spider-Man, as it's just one part of Peter's character arc.

And even ignoring all of that, remember that the cast was only signed for three films. Legally, they could have left after SM3 which would have created a huge continuity break for SM4. I'm sure the only reason Raimi allowed to end SM2 with an unresolved plot thread was because he knew everyone would return to come back and end it. Splitting this movie into two separate parts was never a real option.

But I also hoped for more screentime with Sandman, Eddie, and the black suit--which is why I am (not so patiently) waiting for 3.1 to come out. Just two more years... =\

 

[anrrd_2]

Which isn't a good thing. Even films like The Matrix Reloaded or Kill Bill Vol. 1 had some sense of closure to their stories. The big ideas of those movies (Humans vs. Machines and the Bride's vengeance) were left open for the sequels, but the subplots of Reloaded were resolved within Reloaded; the same goes for Kill Bill 1. Hell, Spider-Man 2 did the same thing, and resolved it's own plot threads while leaving the big one (Harry and the Goblin legacy) dangling for the sequel.

What you and Robin are suggesting would have left Spider-Man 3 completely unresolved, which is irresponsible filmmaking. You don't string your audience along for 3 years, leave them with absolutely no ending, and ask them to wait some more. Besides, Venom isn't a strong enough character to hold a movie of his own; he is just one part of Eddie's character arc. Kind of like how you can't do a whole movie of black suit Spider-Man, as it's just one part of Peter's character arc.

And even ignoring all of that, remember that the cast was only signed for three films. Legally, they could have left after SM3 which would have created a huge continuity break for SM4. I'm sure the only reason Raimi allowed to end SM2 with an unresolved plot thread was because he knew everyone would return to come back and end it. Splitting this movie into two separate parts was never a real option.

But I also hoped for more screentime with Sandman, Eddie, and the black suit--which is why I am (not so patiently) waiting for 3.1 to come out. Just two more years... =\

will they do a 3.1? why didnt they do a 1.1?

 

[Blader5489]

will they do a 3.1?

Most likely. 2.1 was a success, 3 was a success. A 3.1 seems like a foregone conclusion.

why didnt they do a 1.1?

I thought I heard that Raimi had used everything he shot in the movie. I don't think there was anything cut out.

 

[anrrd_2]

Most likely. 2.1 was a success, 3 was a success. A 3.1 seems like a foregone conclusion.



I thought I heard that Raimi had used everything he shot in the movie. I don't think there was anything cut out.

i see, tha ks for the info...i was always alittle put out that there were no deleted scenes on the dvds....or even that there werent hardly any extra features at all. but i quess if you shoot the movie right and dont create alot of fluff that has to be cut, then your doing your job as a director.

 

[Robin91939]

Which isn't a good thing. Even films like The Matrix Reloaded or Kill Bill Vol. 1 had some sense of closure to their stories. The big ideas of those movies (Humans vs. Machines and the Bride's vengeance) were left open for the sequels, but the subplots of Reloaded were resolved within Reloaded; the same goes for Kill Bill 1. Hell, Spider-Man 2 did the same thing, and resolved it's own plot threads while leaving the big one (Harry and the Goblin legacy) dangling for the sequel.

What you and Robin are suggesting would have left Spider-Man 3 completely unresolved, which is irresponsible filmmaking. You don't string your audience along for 3 years, leave them with absolutely no ending, and ask them to wait some more. Besides, Venom isn't a strong enough character to hold a movie of his own; he is just one part of Eddie's character arc. Kind of like how you can't do a whole movie of black suit Spider-Man, as it's just one part of Peter's character arc.

And even ignoring all of that, remember that the cast was only signed for three films. Legally, they could have left after SM3 which would have created a huge continuity break for SM4. I'm sure the only reason Raimi allowed to end SM2 with an unresolved plot thread was because he knew everyone would return to come back and end it. Splitting this movie into two separate parts was never a real option.

But I also hoped for more screentime with Sandman, Eddie, and the black suit--which is why I am (not so patiently) waiting for 3.1 to come out. Just two more years... =\

I think you're missing my idea here. Venom wouldn't be the solo villain of the fourth outing. It would simply be Spider-man 3 "part II". Sandman would come back, Harry would turn to the light, and Venom would have a greater role in the overall film then he did.

Believe it or not, but my idea answers/solves a lot of the criticisms of the film.

Had they split the film in two:

They could have:
-Fleshed out Brock throughout out Part one.
-Fleshed out the Marko family and Sandman in part one
-Allowed for more Green Goblin/Sandman/Spider-man fights
-Given the Stacey's more to do
-Explain/explore the symbiote even more

Now, all they would need is to play the symbiote darker and that's a pretty damn good film.

Part two would include
-The rise of Venom
-Harry turning good
-Sandman returns
-Spider-man returns (in red and blue)...maybe even have him MIA for the first 20 some minutes/half hour of part two. (it feels like we're supposed to feel like we haven't seen Spidey for a while when he holds up the suit and dons it at the end of Spider-man 3, this would add to that feeling).
-More chance to showcase Venom and have him explain how the power transfered from Peter to him, so he's not such a question mark.
-Sandman would be more sympathetic in the end because we've developed him and his family for more than a scene.
-Could make a less contrived team up for Venom and Sandman.

Spider-man 3 was good. I think, had I written it, I could have made a great story for it. It simply needed more time. Sony definitely would have allowed the budget for a back-to-back picture deal. The principle actors and Rami would definitely had been more inclined to accept this than two independent films. Release them back to back summers or May and Oct and it would have been the event of the year and talked about for two. They could afford it, because they'd know they'd get paid off huge in the end.

But hey, that version of Spider-man 3 will just stay in my head with my ideas of how Mr. Singer would have capped off X-men 3.

-R