I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[OnLeatherWings]

Watched this brilliant video on why/how the Court could be introduced as a way to flesh out some of the corruption themes of the first film, specifically in regards to police corruption (He starts talking about it around the 50 minute mark). And yeah, they truly are a no-brainer for this movie. The amount of narrative possibilities they provide truly is endless.

I guess I'm just interested in more than thr corruption narrative. There's so much more to explore.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I guess I'm just interested in more than thr corruption narrative. There's so much more to explore.

For me, I like the idea of just fully committing to where this teams interests obviously lie: in making Batman films that are primarily modeled on 1970s crime epics and paranoid thrillers rather than attempting to encompass any other take on Batman but their own. I feel like the parallel DCU franchise more or less liberates Reeves and co from having to worry about any of that and just focus on telling their story which, one would expect, will continue to explore the themes of corruption introduced in The Batman.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Haven't watched the video yet but I would also wholeheartedly support the sequel having an even harsher perspective on the GCPD and making its corruption a central part of the plot. I get that its a Batman story - you're gonna have Gordon and a few heroic cops, its a pulpy crime story it is never gonna be David Simon, but that shot of all the cops standing heroically at Falcone's arrest is just awful. My least favourite part of the movie.

 

[Invader Joker]

For me, I like the idea of just fully committing to where this teams interests obviously lie: in making Batman films that are primarily modeled on 1970s crime epics and paranoid thrillers rather than attempting to encompass any other take on Batman but their own. I feel like the parallel DCU franchise more or less liberates Reeves and co from having to worry about any of that and just focus on telling their story which, one would expect, will continue to explore the themes of corruption introduced in The Batman.

And imo there are no better villains for a paranoid thriller that delves deep into the themes of corruption established in the first movie than the Court. I'm gonna keep beating the drum until it doesn't happen or until it happens for that reason.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

And imo there are no better villains for a paranoid thriller that delves deep into the themes of corruption established in the first movie than the Court. I'm gonna keep beating the drum until it doesn't happen or until it happens for that reason.

See, my issue is that as cool as The Court is there is something about it that immediately makes the corruption themes feel silly and overwrought. It's fun in a sillier take but part of what I love about The Batman's plot is the relatively grounded mundanity of the charity funds being embezzled. As soon as you move beyond that type of fairly realistic institutional corruption into "Actually it's a cult of weird rich perverts who wear Owl masks and have secret costumed assassins" it starts feeling so untethered from reality that it weakens the point the story is trying to make.

If they're gonna do them, just do them in the DCU stuff where they can be their full goofy selves with their underground labyrinths and semi-immortal assassins.

 

[Invader Joker]

See, my issue is that as cool as The Court is there is something about it that immediately makes the corruption themes feel silly and overwrought. It's fun in a sillier take but part of what I love about The Batman's plot is the relatively grounded mundanity of the charity funds being embezzled. As soon as you move beyond that type of fairly realistic institutional corruption into "Actually it's a cult of weird rich perverts who wear Owl masks and have secret costumed assassins" it starts feeling so untethered from reality that it weakens the point the story is trying to make.

If they're gonna do them, just do them in the DCU stuff where they can be their full goofy selves with their underground labyrinths and semi-immortal assassins.

The argument I'd make is that rich corrupt people in real life ARE goofy, weird and perverted, so it doesn't exactly feel like a massive leap here. And I find all the semi-immortal assassins stuff to be the most boring part about the Court and the thing that has constantly held them back on every adaptation from reaching their full potential. A grounded take that intentionally mirrors real-life events and real-life conspiracies, and that delves into the themes of how the elite are constantly trying to keep the poor poorer would do a lot for them to make them more relevant as part of the Batman mythology, and would connect extremely well with everything this take is going at specifically.

In the video I linked, the guy talked in-depth about the history of policing and how in many ways the system is designed to protect primarily rich people; and how using the Court would be a really great cinematic analogy to use to demostrate that point. Because you can't really go super-literal with it, it has to have some theatricality, which the Court offers in a very simple format.

Rich people in real life do conspire together constantly to **** over everybody else. Not exactly like the Illuminati conspiracy theories, but they do it constantly. Demostrating that but with the added "Oh they wear owl masks in secret too" is not a giant leap for a universe that already has a vigilante dressed as a bat that constantly beats up criminals, and a serial killer that managed to flood an entire city. I'd argue it feels extremely fitting.

 

[J.Drangal]

Yeah, I think the Court of Owls would definitely lacks subtility after The Batman showed us half of Gotham officials and their departement taking drug and slapping some *** all together in a hidden nightclub.

More seriously, about the owls masks and all, (not so) secret clubs and fraternities with extremely silly decorum and rituals do exist. And this isn't even conspiracy talk. Like @Invader Joker, it wouldn't feel out of place to me to see that kind of theatrical cult appearing in the world Reeves created. I mean, Eyes Wide Shut did it super well, with a fantastic and creepy atmosphere in which I could totally picture Pattinson's Batman, or even Wayne, being dropped in.

That being said, I think it would be a bit redundant, after the first film introduced Falcone as the secret boss of the city, to have the same kind of twist/set-up once again.
And I'm also a bit perplex as to how the script would handle this without falling in something too caricatural like "rich people are evil/cops are bad" (despite my love for The Batman, I still can't get over how laborious and fragile the writing felt to me in various places and ways. Tighter writing is actually my only request for the sequel...).

Overall, I don't have an absolute wish list for the bad guys. If they find a way to make the Court work, let's go for it. To play speculation game, a part of me is definitely expecting them to appear. They've been mentioned several times by the cast, so I think it was at least evoked behind the curtains at some point. Dano has mentioned reading the book, and I'm guessing this wasn't handed to him for his Riddler role but maybe, eventually, to show him what the overall narrative of the saga could be...

Or not at all!

 

[DKDetective]

See, my issue is that as cool as The Court is there is something about it that immediately makes the corruption themes feel silly and overwrought. It's fun in a sillier take but part of what I love about The Batman's plot is the relatively grounded mundanity of the charity funds being embezzled. As soon as you move beyond that type of fairly realistic institutional corruption into "Actually it's a cult of weird rich perverts who wear Owl masks and have secret costumed assassins" it starts feeling so untethered from reality that it weakens the point the story is trying to make.

If they're gonna do them, just do them in the DCU stuff where they can be their full goofy selves with their underground labyrinths and semi-immortal assassins.

The Court is also unnecessary because of all of the great more grounded institutional corruption featured in previous Batman comics, especially in the 70s. A lot of fans don't realize this because of BTAS portraying him as more of a gangster, but Rupert Thorne was actually a corrupt city councilman/ political machine boss in the comics. More of a Nucky Thompson than a Tony Soprano.

For me, Thorne is natural inclusion in Part II. Just because Real won the mayoral election does not mean that the city government is reformed. She could be fighting not to become a lame duck due to opposition and corruption on council.

 

[Iceman]

See, my issue is that as cool as The Court is there is something about it that immediately makes the corruption themes feel silly and overwrought. It's fun in a sillier take but part of what I love about The Batman's plot is the relatively grounded mundanity of the charity funds being embezzled. As soon as you move beyond that type of fairly realistic institutional corruption into "Actually it's a cult of weird rich perverts who wear Owl masks and have secret costumed assassins" it starts feeling so untethered from reality that it weakens the point the story is trying to make.

If they're gonna do them, just do them in the DCU stuff where they can be their full goofy selves with their underground labyrinths and semi-immortal assassins.

Quite a good point here that I’d not considered, makes sense. In this case I’ll trade if I get them guaranteed in the DCU at some point.

 

[DeadlyWest]

The Court is also unnecessary because of all of the great more grounded institutional corruption featured in previous Batman comics, especially in the 70s. A lot of fans don't realize this because of BTAS portraying him as more of a gangster, but Rupert Thorne was actually a corrupt city councilman/ political machine boss in the comics. More of a Nucky Thompson than a Tony Soprano.

For me, Thorne is natural inclusion in Part II. Just because Real won the mayoral election does not mean that the city government is reformed. She could be fighting not to become a lame duck due to opposition and corruption on council.

Furthermore, the inclusion of a Thorne and Real rivalry has great story potential for Battinson's Bruce Wayne side of the character. His first real attempt at trying to battle against corruption outside of the mask and trying to be outwardly supportive of another. As I keep saying, the Court is great but their impact on Batman is most potent when he's in his prime and thinks he has Gotham fully figured out, only for the Court to throw the rug out from under him. Not to say the Court can't work for an early years Batman, @Invader Joker has perfectly illustrated how it could. I just don't think that'd be the most effective time to bring the Court in due to the crisis of faith you lose by it not being Prime Batman who thinks he has his **** figured out. Thorne and Real, however, is a great jumping off point for this version of Bruce to start coming out of his comfort zone in terms of generally doing his part overtly in society without the eared cowl.

 

[Boom]

We just had a movie dealing with systemic corruption in Gotham City. The Court is a redundancy.

Gang wars and freak shows. That's where I think we need to head.

 

[Eddie Dean]

The Court also isn't a person, it's a maskless group. Batman needs someone to go mano a mano with, and not Talon either.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Also most rich people aren't exactly hiding the fact that they're using institutions to enrich themselves and deprive others, they're doing it right now out in the open. You don't need a secret society to explore those themes.

 

[DKDetective]

We just had a movie dealing with systemic corruption in Gotham City. The Court is a redundancy.

Gang wars and freak shows. That's where I think we need to head.

The Court also isn't a person, it's a maskless group. Batman needs someone to go mano a mano with, and not Talon either.

I completely agree about the issues with the Court.

In contrast, including Thorne and continued corruption as a B plot on the Bruce Wayne side of things wouldn't be redundant, but a furtherance of the plotlines from the first film. Real's election victory and the exposure of Falcone's embezzlement from the Renewal Fund shouldn't just wipe out corruption. Rather, the forces of corruption ought to be striking back. Real will hopefully come to the realization that it is not as easy to govern as make promises in a campaign. Continued corruption and Bella's need for allies would be an impetus for Bruce to have get out there and develop a public persona as @DeadlyWest mentioned.

Making the Court behind Gotham's corruption undermines those ideas, development, and natural storylines. It turns a public Bruce, reform the system problem into a Batman problem involving punching supervillains (ie. Talon) and arresting people.

Reeves is very clear he wants to make sure this stays Bruce's story throughout the trilogy and that he is the most important, most interesting character. The only other film to really effectively capture that before The Batman was Begins. Even after Bruce returns to Gotham, the movie effectively sets up a conflict for Bruce as Bruce and not just as Batman, ie. The conflict with Earle over control of Wayne Enterprises and keeping its business ethical. The Dark Knight only really used Bruce as a tool or disguise for Batman to investigate Lau.

 

[Luke995]

Very interesting discussion, guys.
I was one of those who thinked that the Court could be a good plot for Part II, but you almost convinced me!

However, I can't ignore all the clues in The Batman about the fact that could be something more about the secrets of Gotham.
Not only what Riddler says (and the rataalada.com thing), but also the fact that Falcone is a reclusive paranoid (why would he stay hide if he truly is the king of the city?) or Colson's "it's the whole system" and the Edward Elliot thing...

I don't know, it's pretty clear there's something more (and, frankly, the fact that Falcone was the big bad was one of the weakest thing in the movie, just like the mobster corruption... so a part of me hopes that there is actually something else, even if it wouldn't change the weakness of this side of the script) and I don't think is just Hush or Thomas Elliot (well, actually I hope it haha)...

Also, there is all the implication of Arkham... And the post-flood city... I don't know.

Anyway, I hope Part II won't be anxious to be too much...
The Batman is an extremely compact story (not considering some flaws like all the confused and in a way pointless part about Elliot/Falcone/Maroni/Thomas Wayne), I don't want the second part to have too many subplots.

But Reeves already have two spin off to explore othere subplots (Mobster and Freaks), so I'm quite sure my worries are unfounded.

 

[Invader Joker]

I completely agree about the issues with the Court.

In contrast, including Thorne and continued corruption as a B plot on the Bruce Wayne side of things wouldn't be redundant, but a furtherance of the plotlines from the first film. Real's election victory and the exposure of Falcone's embezzlement from the Renewal Fund shouldn't just wipe out corruption. Rather, the forces of corruption ought to be striking back. Real will hopefully come to the realization that it is not as easy to govern as make promises in a campaign. Continued corruption and Bella's need for allies would be an impetus for Bruce to have get out there and develop a public persona as @DeadlyWest mentioned.

Making the Court behind Gotham's corruption undermines those ideas, development, and natural storylines. It turns a public Bruce, reform the system problem into a Batman problem involving punching supervillains (ie. Talon) and arresting people.

Reeves is very clear he wants to make sure this stays Bruce's story throughout the trilogy and that he is the most important, most interesting character. The only other film to really effectively capture that before The Batman was Begins. Even after Bruce returns to Gotham, the movie effectively sets up a conflict for Bruce as Bruce and not just as Batman, ie. The conflict with Earle over control of Wayne Enterprises and keeping its business ethical. The Dark Knight only really used Bruce as a tool or disguise for Batman to investigate Lau.

I really fail to see a single way in which Rupert Thorne would be remotely compelling as a driving threat in a Batman movie unless he was tied into something bigger like.. yeah, the Court. And no, I don't think that the Court undermines any of the ideas of corruption since that's exactly how corruption is on real life and how it was portrayed in the first movie: Rich people conspiring to keep everybody else poor. Would it give Batman something to punch and arrest? Yeah, but it's a Batman movie, by design he needs something to punch and arrest, and something that'd look cool.

 

[DKDetective]

I really fail to see a single way in which Rupert Thorne would be remotely compelling as a driving threat in a Batman movie unless he was tied into something bigger like.. yeah, the Court. And no, I don't think that the Court undermines any of the ideas of corruption since that's exactly how corruption is on real life and how it was portrayed in the first movie: Rich people conspiring to keep everybody else poor. Would it give Batman something to punch and arrest? Yeah, but it's a Batman movie, by design he needs something to punch and arrest, and something that'd look cool.

I said B plot. That means the secondary plot, in particular the story for the Bruce Wayne persona. The main plot would be the power vacuum, gang wars, and rise of the freaks like in Dark Victory. So the driving threat for Batman would be classic Batman rogues with all that entails.

 

[Invader Joker]

I said B plot. That means the secondary plot, in particular the story for the Bruce Wayne persona. The main plot would be the power vacuum, gang wars, and rise of the freaks like in Dark Victory. So the driving threat for Batman would be classic Batman rogues with all that entails.

That's basically doing TDK 2.0 + probably a bunch of stuff already being covered in The Penguin. I can't agree that seems like an exciting sequel to this; maybe on a vacuum, but not with The Penguin and TDK existing.

 

[DKDetective]

That's basically doing TDK 2.0 + probably a bunch of stuff already being covered in The Penguin. I can't agree that seems like an exciting sequel to this; maybe on a vacuum, but not with The Penguin and TDK existing.

Not if the arc for Batman is totally different and they use different villains. Also where was there a gang war between freaks in The Dark Knight? It was Batman versus the Joker who was unleashed by all of the gangs allied together. The Dark Knight has Bruce sacrifice Batman and it's meaning for a false victory after a battle with Joker.

It would be a very different movie and story if it is about an overwhelmed Bruce actually letting someone in and taking in Dick Grayson because he can't do it alone. And despite what some are saying in here, I will bet Reeves will use Robin at some point in this trilogy. His love of Batman comes from the 60s series as a kid. The rogues gallery for Part I were all big time players from that series. Reeves is doing Robin.

Obviously anything in The Batman Part II will have to take the Penguin into account, but the Penguin should not change the overall picture of Gotham too much. It would be a huge mistake for Penguin to be required viewing for Part II.

 

[Invader Joker]

Not if the arc for Batman is totally different and they use different villains. Also where was there a gang war between freaks in The Dark Knight? It was Batman versus the Joker who was unleashed by all of the gangs allied together. The Dark Knight has Bruce sacrifice Batman and it's meaning for a false victory after a battle with Joker.

It would be a very different movie and story if it is about an overwhelmed Bruce actually letting someone in and taking in Dick Grayson because he can't do it alone. And despite what some are saying in here, I will bet Reeves will use Robin at some point in this trilogy. His love of Batman comes from the 60s series as a kid. The rogues gallery for Part I were all big time players from that series. Reeves is doing Robin.

Obviously anything in The Batman Part II will have to take the Penguin into account, but the Penguin should not change the overall picture of Gotham too much. It would be a huge mistake for Penguin to be required viewing for Part II.

Looking at how many important mob characters are getting their introduction (and development over 8 episodes) on The Penguin and how the entire conceit about it is about the gang wars that'd lead to him getting into being the ultimate kingpin of Gotham, I think the picture of Gotham will change very very much due to that series. The gang wars will be done, because Oz is gonna be the one in control by the time the sequel starts. All the Falcones and Maronis will be dealt with by then.

 

[Boom]

Looking at how many important mob characters are getting their introduction (and development over 8 episodes) on The Penguin and how the entire conceit about it is about the gang wars that'd lead to him getting into being the ultimate kingpin of Gotham, I think the picture of Gotham will change very very much due to that series. The gang wars will be done, because Oz is gonna be the one in control by the time the sequel starts. All the Falcones and Maronis will be dealt with by then.

 

[Invader Joker]

Not beating the TDK 2.0 allegations.

 

[Boom]

Not beating the TDK 2.0 allegations.

A full movie with Two-Face rising to become one of Gotham's most notorious mob bosses.

TDK how?

 

[DeadlyWest]

Not beating the TDK 2.0 allegations.

I mean

at a point, yeah, the overall plot of a Batman story has its pretty typical beats. Bad guys cause more chaos than usual, usually due to some power vacuum, gang war, whatever and Batman stops it. How you make that story different and nuanced is through the fine details. That's how TDK takes that general story and makes it different to Batman 89. That's how TB2 will make it different from TDK. TDK isn't the only way to tell a "crime escalation" Batman story. That's one of his oldest stories in the book, with multiple writers giving their own spin on it. This is just gonna be Matt's.

 

[Sawyer]

According to Daniel Richtman, apparently…