Jean/Logan: The Evolving Relationship.

[undomiel]

Correct, I know those scenes well, but they're no proof of anything. There are no specifics mentioned there and therefore no way you can accurately say "Cyclops had an easy life"... you couldn't say that for Storm either. It's a passing comment that doesn't really give much information. The fact that Beast is now in the 3rd movie being introduced as another of the '1st students' is proof of just how broad and vague that statement in X1 was.

Oh, no -- I didn't mean it was "proof" of anything -- that's just what I took away from it. The movies don't give details to prove that Wolverine had a really tough life, but it was the feeling I got from watching them.

Now, back to the topic at hand...Jean and Logan, the evolving relationship.

I posted this somewhere else, but I may as well say it here, too. The writers have done something very interesting with Jean's character. They've thrown her into an awful situation, a situation that no woman wants to be in. She appears to have fallen in love with two men -- both Scott and Logan. Now most people rail that Jean totally belongs to Scott and say that Logan is a bad guy for pursuing her while knowing she's already engaged. But I think Logan pursues her because he senses she does have real feelings for him. If Scott were a bad guy, it would all be very simple -- Jean could just run to Logan for rescue. But Scott's not bad, he's a great guy. So it's a mess, but it's an interesting mess.

And a broken engagement is not the same thing as a broken marriage vow. In fact, one could argue that it would be better to break off an engagement if one of the two realizes that he/she is really more in love with someone else. I'm not saying it will happen, or that it necessarily should -- just that it's a very difficult situation.

 

[Redd_Angel]

i think - i may be completely off here, so be nice! - but i think wolverine can understand people's feelings because of his heightened senses. like if someone's scared, perhaps he can sense their faster heartbeat or if they're sweating or something.

anyway, if that were true, then it makes the jean/logan relationship all the more interesting and complex! coz maybe jean hides her attraction toward logan because she loves scott, but logan can actually sense that jean somewhat has feelings for him so he pursues her. conversely, logan keeps his thoughts and past from everyone, and he isolates himself. but jean can also read minds, which can allow her to understand logan better than anyone. so there's a lot of things unsaid between them, and there's a lot of things beneath their outside demeanors even if jean's restricted by her loyalty to scott.

 

[Darkie]

JeLo YES!!!

 

[Deep Thinkin'!]

i think - i may be completely off here, so be nice! - but i think wolverine can understand people's feelings because of his heightened senses. like if someone's scared, perhaps he can sense their faster heartbeat or if they're sweating or something.

anyway, if that were true, then it makes the jean/logan relationship all the more interesting and complex! coz maybe jean hides her attraction toward logan because she loves scott, but logan can actually sense that jean somewhat has feelings for him so he pursues her. conversely, logan keeps his thoughts and past from everyone, and he isolates himself. but jean can also read minds, which can allow her to understand logan better than anyone. so there's a lot of things unsaid between them, and there's a lot of things beneath their outside demeanors even if jean's restricted by her loyalty to scott.

hmm.... you have an interesting point..... *thinks*

 

[Loganbabe]

One could argue that given proper characterization he might have had an even worse time, since he does remember his past and at least Wolverine doesn't know all thats happened to him or that he has done (from his conversations with Stryker it's obvious he wasn't an angel so he's at least spared from remembering those he has wronged).

Why would you believe in Stryker anyway? He was a villain, he was a terrible person, and he was still trying to use and manipulate Logan. It´s easy to do that to an amnsesiac - just check out "Memento". I never believed for a moment all the Stryker bull**** of Logan "being an animal then" and a horrible person. Logan isn´t an angel, of course - but then, no one is. But he certainly wasn´t the person Stryker described.

As for Logan being a leader or not, well of course he has the skills to be a wonderful leader, if he wants to. He´s simply not interested. And I like him that way, since I was never attracted to leader types anyway...

 

[Spidey 2007]

theres always room for jelo.

 

[Endeavor]

I never believed for a moment all the Stryker bull**** of Logan "being an animal then" and a horrible person.

You didn't believe it because you didn't want to but there's no proof to validate one possibility over the other. Stryker was a villain yes, but everything out of his mouth wasn't a lie. How do you know he was lying in that scene? You can't know for sure.

 

[Darkie]

theres always room for jelo.

 

[undomiel]

i think - i may be completely off here, so be nice! - but i think wolverine can understand people's feelings because of his heightened senses. like if someone's scared, perhaps he can sense their faster heartbeat or if they're sweating or something.

anyway, if that were true, then it makes the jean/logan relationship all the more interesting and complex! coz maybe jean hides her attraction toward logan because she loves scott, but logan can actually sense that jean somewhat has feelings for him so he pursues her. conversely, logan keeps his thoughts and past from everyone, and he isolates himself. but jean can also read minds, which can allow her to understand logan better than anyone. so there's a lot of things unsaid between them, and there's a lot of things beneath their outside demeanors even if jean's restricted by her loyalty to scott.

You are right on, Redd Angel! Animals are extremely sensitive to the feelings of other creatures, and I agree with you completely -- Logan pursues Jean because he senses her attraction to him. I also agree that Jean hides her feelings because she's engaged to Scott and doesn't want to mess that up -- it's partly out of loyalty and partly out of fear, I think.

It's nice to know that there are at least a few other people out there who picked up on the same kinds of things.

 

[weatherwitch]

**yawn** Same old same old. LOL.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

You are right on, Redd Angel! Animals are extremely sensitive to the feelings of other creatures, and I agree with you completely -- Logan pursues Jean because he senses her attraction to him. I also agree that Jean hides her feelings because she's engaged to Scott and doesn't want to mess that up -- it's partly out of loyalty and partly out of fear, I think.

It's nice to know that there are at least a few other people out there who picked up on the same kinds of things.

I agree with you and Redd_angel ... they pretty much sums up of what I've been trying to spill my guts out for the last two months or so.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Just to inject some new blood into the conversation about Wolverine's life vs Cyclop's... I agree with the comments made about the details not really being there to support much of an assumption. But the comparison is further lost when you consider that, by the movie's suggestion, Wolverine could quite possibly be older than the professor. So, how would one compare the life, or difficulty of life, of a 70 - 100 year old man (Wolverine), to a 20 - 24 year old man (Cyclops)?

 

[Murder]

All this articulating over which person they want Jean to end up with... What's wrong with a 3-Way or maybe Scott or Wolverine are closet beligamist!! Cheers my fellow Brothers!!!

 

[BobJM]

If not in this film, hopefully next film, I really want to see Logan push Scott too far and I want them to get into a physical, dangerous fight. I'm sure Scott has all this anger in him with Logan trying to steal his wife, even once she rises from the dead. It's just those two have never really been explored, well in relation to that particular plot line. They always just showcase Jean & Logan and Jean & Scott. Never Scott & Logan arguing. To me, that would be interesting with Jean caught in the middle, trying to break it up.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

uh they're not married in the movies. you know that right? They were engaged...and Famke said so herself...

 

[BobJM]

In X2, Jean says to Logan outside the X-Jet.

"Girls flirt with the dangerous girl, Logan. They don't take them home. I married a good guy."

He says:

"I can be a good guy"

She says:

"Logan, the good guy sticks arou--"

Kiss blah blah blah

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

She says They...marry the good guy... I just happened to watch the clip.

 

[undomiel]

Just to inject some new blood into the conversation about Wolverine's life vs Cyclop's... I agree with the comments made about the details not really being there to support much of an assumption. But the comparison is further lost when you consider that, by the movie's suggestion, Wolverine could quite possibly be older than the professor. So, how would one compare the life, or difficulty of life, of a 70 - 100 year old man (Wolverine), to a 20 - 24 year old man (Cyclops)?

More time for poor Logan to suffer, I would think...

 

[undomiel]

If not in this film, hopefully next film, I really want to see Logan push Scott too far and I want them to get into a physical, dangerous fight. I'm sure Scott has all this anger in him with Logan trying to steal his wife, even once she rises from the dead. It's just those two have never really been explored, well in relation to that particular plot line. They always just showcase Jean & Logan and Jean & Scott. Never Scott & Logan arguing. To me, that would be interesting with Jean caught in the middle, trying to break it up.

But the interesting thing is that Jean's death kind of brought them together at the end of X2. I think in the beginning of X3 they'll relate more like brothers, and then we don't know what the heck happens to Scott -- whether he'll even live to be upset about what goes on between Logan and Jean. But she's not his wife yet -- she's just his fiancee.

 

[Karategirlx2001]

In X2, Jean says to Logan outside the X-Jet.

"Girls flirt with the dangerous girl, Logan. They don't take them home. I married a good guy."

He says:

"I can be a good guy"

She says:

"Logan, the good guy sticks arou--"

Kiss blah blah blah

I remember there was a heavy discussion on this a few months ago. It is in fact "they marry the good guy." I think it shows it that way on the subtitles and captions.

 

[BobJM]

But the interesting thing is that Jean's death kind of brought them together at the end of X2. I think in the beginning of X3 they'll relate more like brothers, and then we don't know what the heck happens to Scott -- whether he'll even live to be upset about what goes on between Logan and Jean. But she's not his wife yet -- she's just his fiancee.

The only reason said that "Jean picked you" at the end of X2 is because he thought there was zero chance of her ever coming back. He made ammends. But the second she comes back into his life, he forgets completely about his pact with Cyclops. I hope, if Scott is still breathing, they make a remark at that quote.

 

[Lazmarquez]

If I were Logan, I would most certainly comfort Cyclops, who took the death obviously very tough by saying that she chose him. She never truly made a choice.

Also, I think that the fact that in the X3 clips, Jean is so cozy with Logan, says something. The dark phoenix indulges on her inner wants and needs, without inhibition.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Well what do you tell yourself... after all that happened back at Alkali Lake, all of the sudden, Jean is Back!! What do you do, what do you say when your feelings resurfaces for someone you cared about as a friend and knowing it'll never work out if it ever turned into a love-like relationship?

I don't think he forgot about the remark he made to cykes about she chose you. Its just... I think he's confused cause she's back... and doesn't know that she's not herself...well. some could argue that...but I think he kinda knows she's kinda different cause prof x said so.

 

[undomiel]

The only reason said that "Jean picked you" at the end of X2 is because he thought there was zero chance of her ever coming back. He made ammends. But the second she comes back into his life, he forgets completely about his pact with Cyclops. I hope, if Scott is still breathing, they make a remark at that quote.

No, I disagree. Logan sincerely believes Jean was rejecting him after that kiss where she pushed him away. I think he'll be most surprised to discover that perhaps he was wrong! And Logan never, ever said that he had stopped caring for Jean. Just because he can't have her doesn't mean he has no feelings for her.

By the way -- did any of you catch the X3 TV spot that aired during Seabiscuit on Saturday night? WOOT!!! Je-Lo ALL THE WAY!!!

 

[Karategirlx2001]

So now that the movie is over...