The Dark Knight Rises Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

[Herolee10]

I still think to this day that Talia's connection with Bane somewhat hurt the character in a way from my pov since I would have preferred if Bane had his own agenda and didn't have that one vulnerable side.

 

[Anita18]

I still think to this day that Talia's connection with Bane somewhat hurt the character in a way from my pov since I would have preferred if Bane had his own agenda and didn't have that one vulnerable side.

I think that vulnerable side actually made his evilness even more pronounced. Because he did have capacity for good, but ignored it and chose to be ruthless instead.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I still think to this day that Talia's connection with Bane somewhat hurt the character in a way from my pov since I would have preferred if Bane had his own agenda and didn't have that one vulnerable side.

I interpret it differently. Bane has his "own" agenda. It just so happens that his agenda is the same as Talia's. They share the same desire to see Gotham crushed, not so that it can be reborn a better version of itself (as Ras wanted), but to be wiped off the face of the map completely. Remember, theres the idea that one of the reasons Ras kicked Bane out was for being too extreme, so you could say that it is TALIA who is following Bane's principals and desire to destroy Gotham. She just takes the "lead" (word used lightly) as the daughter of Ras. I think people take the Talia reveal to a whole other level not intended by Nolan.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I think that vulnerable side actually made his evilness even more pronounced. Because he did have capacity for good, but ignored it and chose to be ruthless instead.

Exactly. Pure characters are nothing but pure dumb.

 

[Herolee10]

I think that vulnerable side actually made his evilness even more pronounced. Because he did have capacity for good, but ignored it and chose to be ruthless instead.

I interpret it differently. Bane has his "own" agenda. It just so happens that his agenda is the same as Talia's. They share the same desire to see Gotham crushed, not so that it can be reborn a better version of itself (as Ras wanted), but to be wiped off the face of the map completely. Remember, theres the idea that one of the reasons Ras kicked Bane out was for being too extreme, so you could say that it is TALIA who is following Bane's principals and desire to destroy Gotham. She just takes the "lead" (word used lightly) as the daughter of Ras. I think people take the Talia reveal to a whole other level not intended by Nolan.

Huh; never thought about it that way before. That definitely leaves me with a new outlook on the whole situation and makes sense when I think about it. Thanks.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Bane was certainly more of a father to Talia than Ra's. It'd make sense if she adopted his views.

 

[BatLobster]

I interpret it differently. Bane has his "own" agenda. It just so happens that his agenda is the same as Talia's. They share the same desire to see Gotham crushed, not so that it can be reborn a better version of itself (as Ras wanted), but to be wiped off the face of the map completely. Remember, theres the idea that one of the reasons Ras kicked Bane out was for being too extreme, so you could say that it is TALIA who is following Bane's principals and desire to destroy Gotham. She just takes the "lead" (word used lightly) as the daughter of Ras. I think people take the Talia reveal to a whole other level not intended by Nolan.

That's how I see it too. They shared the same ideology which stems from their LOS indoctrination, which is essentially viewing Gotham as something that's throwing off the natural balance of the world. In even simpler terms, it could probably be boiled down a hatred of the West. It's probably made even more personal for the two of them, as they were both born in a horrible prison, which is about as far as one can get from a modern American city (I choose to interpret it that way because Bane does say he was "born in darkness", and it makes some sense out of why he'd be so protective of Talia in the first place). They came up with their plan, and she had her role to play as Miranda Tate, but she essentially left Bane the keys to the kingdom. He was the guy giving orders and running the day to day operation.

Also, I believe he is more than happy to punish Bruce in the process because:

• Logistically, it makes sense to get him out of the picture before they enact their plan.
• While Ra's excommunicated Bane from the League, then Bruce betrayed Ra's and turned his back on them. It's like the equivalent of your girlfriend dumping you while you still have feelings for her, and then having to watch her next boyfriend treat her like crap. Weird analogy but that's how I see it. I think Bane very much would have wanted to stay with the League, it was probably the first true home and family he'd ever known. He probably thinks of Bruce as a disgrace for throwing away something so sacred, and I'd bet there's a hint of jealousy that Ra's saw so much potential in him too.
• By foiling Ra's plans and bringing about his demise, he caused Talia pain, and Bane originally made a name for himself by beating up guys who tried to harm Talia.
• Just like the comics...he gets to be the guy to break the bat. 'Nuff said.

 

[jmc]

Just make Bane an actual 'liberator' trying to start a revolution. That's all that needed to happen. It's right there Mr Nolan, you give us glimpses of it, you had a war film at your grasp and yet you didn't follow through with it.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Just make Bane an actual 'liberator' trying to start a revolution. That's all that needed to happen. It's right there Mr Nolan, you give us glimpses of it, you had a war film at your grasp and yet you didn't follow through with it.

Of all the missed opportunities, this is the biggest one. The film didn't have the balls to truly get into the meat of what would happen if the citizens of Gotham were pitted against one another.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

If Bane was actual liberator, he would be people's hero and Batman government's agent or fascist. Not just that, it would make it more political movie which already got criticism for being right wing bla bla...

I don't want a villain i would like to root against Batman. I can root for rich guy trying to keep order while Bane is true liberator for poor ones. Who would root for Sheriff of Nottigham instead of Robin Hood?

It might be cool for another movie, or what if world story but in a major blockbuster it wouldn't end good for Batman.

 

[Anita18]

Just make Bane an actual 'liberator' trying to start a revolution. That's all that needed to happen. It's right there Mr Nolan, you give us glimpses of it, you had a war film at your grasp and yet you didn't follow through with it.

...it would be a completely different movie....A huge part of it was how true despair is not possible without hope. Bane's plan for Gotham followed that right through.

And reversely, how true happiness is not possible without despair, vis a vis Batman faking his death.

 

[BatLobster]

Who is to say Bane wasn't an actual liberator though? For my money, they saw themselves as liberating the entire world by showing how vulnerable a society based on greed and capitalism can be and how it's possible to take it down. The nuke going off would have been one final and shocking cautionary lesson to the whole world.

One just needs to think of what the global ramifications would be if, say New York, had been under siege by a terrorist group for 5 months and then blown to hell.

I think their actual plan was more terrifying than a simple revolution. Oh and by the way, a "simple revolution" would have been impossible to accomplish in Gotham without something like a nuke to deter the government from interfering. And once you bring a nuke into the equation, it's no longer a simple revolution, regardless of whether you intend to detonate it. The threat of nuclear annihilation keeps the majority of people who might want to start an uprising against Bane (IE the middle class) in fear and hiding.

 

[regwec]

Do you think the US government would have attacked Gotham if its residents had voted to secede by open and democratic plebiscite?

 

[Anita18]

Also, if there was an actual revolutionary movement...wouldn't Bane see Batman as PART of it instead of against it? Unless he thought that Batman had to be eliminated because he wasn't doing the job right.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

Just make Bane an actual 'liberator' trying to start a revolution. That's all that needed to happen. It's right there Mr Nolan, you give us glimpses of it, you had a war film at your grasp and yet you didn't follow through with it.

Nolan did just fine.

Bane & Talia were terrorists. They invaded American soil & tried to destroy a major U.S. City. They failed.

They were Nolan's answer to Al-Qaeda.

 

[regwec]

When did al'Queada attempt a social revolution? Don't they just blow things up? Isn't it a bit reductive to compare the League of Shadows to that?

 

[Anita18]

When did al'Queada attempt a social revolution? Don't they just blow things up? Isn't it a bit reductive to compare the League of Shadows to that?

They hate Western civilization and aim to destroy it. It's not so simple as just them liking to blow things up. Then they'd just work for Michael Bay.

I'm not sure if I've heard if they have a post-destroying-America plan though.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

When did al'Queada attempt a social revolution? Don't they just blow things up? Isn't it a bit reductive to compare the League of Shadows to that?

The revolution was a ploy to give the people of Gotham false hope.

Talia & Bane didn't care about the lower class or the criminals at Blackgate. They wanted everyone dead.

The fact that Talia's an Arab only solidifies the parallels between her group & Al-Qaeda.

 

[regwec]

Yes, but the variance in methodology is quite important, because it is what accounts for much of the substance of the film.

Was this "Talia" an Arab? She had a French accent, and looked as anaemic as Kristin Stewart.

Was her group Arabic? Neither Bane nor any of his henchmen seemed that way.

 

[Alexei Belyakov]

Yes, but the variance in methodology is quite important, because it is what accounts for much of the substance of the film.

Was this "Talia" an Arab? She had a French accent, and looked as anaemic as Kristin Stewart.

Was her group Arabic? Neither Bane nor any of his henchmen seemed that way.

Cotillard anemic? She had the rack of a porn star in this movie.

Talia's warlord grandfather was an Arab (the subtitles in the TV Bruce watches inside the Lazarus Pit are Syrian) as was her mother in turn making her Arab.

The variance in methodology is mainly theatrical (and even Osama had a taste for the theatrical). What sets Talia's group apart from Al-Qaeda is muscle. They weren't satisfied with merely attacking American soil - they wanted to invade it, break it and ultimately destroy it.

Then again, had Osama been able to smuggle his entire group into the country the way Talia did, who's to say the outcome would not have been similar?

 

[jmc]

...it would be a completely different movie....A huge part of it was how true despair is not possible without hope. Bane's plan for Gotham followed that right through.

And reversely, how true happiness is not possible without despair, vis a vis Batman faking his death.

Yes it would have, and it would have been better for it. All of that could have been explored had he made Bane actually want to start a revolution.

Also, if there was an actual revolutionary movement...wouldn't Bane see Batman as PART of it instead of against it? Unless he thought that Batman had to be eliminated because he wasn't doing the job right.

Why? He's Bruce Wayne. He's wealthy and kept the truth about Harvey Dent from city. For a delusional dictator that's enough reason to take him out.

 

[jmc]

Nolan did just fine.

Bane & Talia were terrorists. They invaded American soil & tried to destroy a major U.S. City. They failed.

They were Nolan's answer to Al-Qaeda.

And territory he already covered in film one.

 

[jmc]

Who is to say Bane wasn't an actual liberator though? For my money, they saw themselves as liberating the entire world by showing how vulnerable a society based on greed and capitalism can be and how it's possible to take it down. The nuke going off would have been one final and shocking cautionary lesson to the whole world.

One just needs to think of what the global ramifications would be if, say New York, had been under siege by a terrorist group for 5 months and then blown to hell.

I think their actual plan was more terrifying than a simple revolution. Oh and by the way, a "simple revolution" would have been impossible to accomplish in Gotham without something like a nuke to deter the government from interfering. And once you bring a nuke into the equation, it's no longer a simple revolution, regardless of whether you intend to detonate it. The threat of nuclear annihilation keeps the majority of people who might want to start an uprising against Bane (IE the middle class) in fear and hiding.

I'm sorry, but the nuke thing was handled so poorly, in fact it bordered on cliche. It would have been far better had we not known about the bomb in the first place, instead Nolan set the damn thing up half an hour earlier. What disappoints me the most is there was no creativity in how it was handled, lucky for the LoS 'ol Bruce had that reactor stored hey?

 

[Anita18]

Yes it would have, and it would have been better for it. All of that could have been explored had he made Bane actually want to start a revolution.

Why? He's Bruce Wayne. He's wealthy and kept the truth about Harvey Dent from city. For a delusional dictator that's enough reason to take him out.

But Bane isn't famous for beating up Bruce Wayne the billionaire. He's famous for beating up Batman. And Batman fights for the people.

Bane wouldn't be so dumb as to believing unveiling Batman's real identity before giving him a beatdown would help his cause.

 

[jmc]

If Bane was actual liberator, he would be people's hero and Batman government's agent or fascist. Not just that, it would make it more political movie which already got criticism for being red wing bla bla...

I don't want a villain i would like to root against Batman. I can root for rich guy trying to keep order while Bane is true liberator for poor ones. Who would root for Sheriff of Nottigham instead of Robin Hood?

It might be cool for another movie, or what if world story but in a major blockbuster it wouldn't end good for Batman.

So what if it's more 'political'? I hear Americans bang all the time about 'losing their freedom' and crap like that, so what's wrong with actually seeing what something like that may look like? Nothing.